112 réponses à ce sujet

[Kolaris8472]

Might get into some spoilers ahead, be warned.

I just had to give up/delete a character out of frustration because I'd spent the last 5 hours dying to the same 2-3 fights up to Fort Draken...on Easy.

The problem? No Mages.

Now I'm no stranger to RPGs, BioWare or otherwise. NWN, BG2, JE, KotoR, ME - beat them all rather easily on the hardest difficulty, but I could appreciate the easier difficulties for people who wanted to focus on the story, which is the high-point of BioWares games in my opinion, the stellar story telling. This wasn't me, until DA:O. And for reference, I don't use Tactics because I already Pause the game to issue out orders to all characters.

I started out on Hard, having very little trouble for the first few hours because my party was pretty much set for me. My PC (Warrior) didn't really get along with Morrigan but I didn't really have an option at that point, so we toughed it out. As we go along, we begin assembling a merry little band - strangely, befeft of any and all Mages. I eventually amass a force of 5 Warriors and a Wardog, with still only Morrigan as a Mage. I was beginning to think this was a little strange, but that was likely my fault for not realising that if I had a Mage problem, I should have started at the Mages Tower (was the last place I visited).

By this point I've lowered the difficulty to Normal and am having to chug quite a few Poultices to get through some fights. My relationship with Morrigan is down to some -30, but I realize that without her I'd probably have to lower the difficulty still further. Dissapointing to say the least, given how I wished I could fill my party with NPCs I, and my character, found more interesting or got along with better.

To keep things short, I make an in-character choice to purge the Mages Tower, losing out on Wynn, and realise at this point I'd better lower the difficulty to Easy.

Well, when I again make an in-character choice to decline Morrigans offer on the eve of battle and she takes off, I'm starting to swear under my breath. There were only ever 2 Mage NPCs and they're both easily losable. Perhaps I should have made more compromises in playing the story, but heck, its on Easy now so that shouldn't be an issue. Right?

Well the return to Denerim is a nightmare. There are swarms of enemies, multiple Ogres, and archers in places I can't even hope to get to with just Rogues and Warriors. I die countless times, eventually giving up all hope on the steps of Fort Draken where's there's simply no way to make it through without CC and AoE damage.

I'm sitting there, quite puzzled at how this could have happened. But then in reading the forums and seeing how easy people are finding the game with a 3 Mage party and an Arcane Warrior/Blood Mage set-up, things start to make more sense.

Mages are ridiculously strong, whether for a gameplay or lore reason it doesn't really matter. This does 2 things which end up screwing me over. 1), BioWare balances the game difficulties on a curve, so to speak. Likely for the party consising of 2 or even 3 Mages. No sweat I say, I'll just lower the difficulty and enjoy the story. Problem 2). They have to go out of the way to prevent the Party from ever being able to consist of 4 Mages, as this would simply be too easy. So there ends up being a horribly skewed party balance for the Rogue or Warrior PC - only 2 possibly Mages, both of which can easily run off if you like playing a consistent character.

This leaves me in this rather hopeless situation. The game is balanced around Mages, on all difficulties, and I'm fresh out of them.

Its very disappointing to me that this gameplay and design problem ends up getting in the way of BioWares superb story-telling, even on the 'Story' diffuclty.

[Kukuritty]

This game's difficutly setting is messed up. I have enormous problems even in Redcliff due to not having healers -



WTF! I put the game on easy - as if there was no playtesting at all - this is not easy, frustrating and annoying - I am selling my copy on ebay.



I played BG seriers, and ID not all the way through but for many-many days - I never had problems like these - with enemies swarming like crazy and no options how to defeat them

[NetBeansAndJava]

Kukuritty wrote...

I have enormous problems even in Redcliff due to not having healers -

Why not just take a healer?

There are very few rpgs where you can beat the game and not have someone who heals.  Pots can only take you so far being that they have a cooldown.

Edit: maybe you mean you think there aren't any healers?  Whynne is a healer.  Morrigan can be made into one.  If you're a mage, you can spec as a healer.

Modifié par NetBeansAndJava, 12 novembre 2009 - 03:50 .

[slyfox8860]

NetBeansAndJava wrote...

Kukuritty wrote...

I have enormous problems even in Redcliff due to not having healers -

Why not just take a healer?

There are very few rpgs where you can beat the game and not have someone who heals.  Pots can only take you so far being that they have a cooldown.

Edit: maybe you mean you think there aren't any healers?  Whynne is a healer.  Morrigan can be made into one.  If you're a mage, you can spec as a healer.

he lost both of those people because of his in-game choices, this shouldnt be possible if the game is so centered around having a healer

[Kukuritty]

NetBeansAndJava wrote...

Why not just take a healer?

I am inside the castle mid way - where could I get a healer? Morrigan finally got  a heal but it is weak and does not make a difference.

Modifié par Kukuritty, 12 novembre 2009 - 04:01 .

[NetBeansAndJava]

Kukuritty wrote...

NetBeansAndJava wrote...

Kukuritty wrote...

I have enormous problems even in Redcliff due to not having healers -

Why not just take a healer?

Edit: maybe you mean you think there aren't any healers?  Whynne is a healer.  Morrigan can be made into one.  If you're a mage, you can spec as a healer.

I am inside the castle mid way - where could I get a healer? Morrigan finally got  a heal but it is weak and does not make a difference.

Not sure what castle you're in, but you should get Whynne if you want a premade healer.  She's in the mage tower.

Maybe your heals are weak b/c of your magic stat?  It determines how powerful your spells are.  Also, just having the lvl 1 heal does not make you a dedicated healer.  You should also spec for "spirit healer" and try to get all the row 1 creation spells.

[Kukuritty]

The problem is that you are asked to make choices - but nothing indicates that you may irreversibly hose youself.



I wanted to be an archer (they seem to be pathetic - I cannot kill and even level archer) - I chose to go to redcliff rather than mage tower - morrigan has had no heals ... it does take much to unexpectedly paint yourself into a corner.

[NetBeansAndJava]

Kukuritty wrote...

The problem is that you are asked to make choices - but nothing indicates that you may irreversibly hose youself.

I wanted to be an archer (they seem to be pathetic - I cannot kill and even level archer) - I chose to go to redcliff rather than mage tower - morrigan has had no heals ... it does take much to unexpectedly paint yourself into a corner.

Yeah, that's true.  This game is definitely unforgiving in that respect.

Redcliff is a nasty, nasty place, regardless of when you go... but if you go early... well, it's just a nightmare.  Personally, I think Redcliff should be toned down a notch or two.

Oh and archers do sorta suck right now.  But fear not -- archery is getting a buff in the next patch I hear.

[Kukuritty]

Not sure what castle you're in, but you should get Whynne if you want a premade healer.  She's in the mage tower.

Maybe your heals are weak b/c of your magic stat?  It determines how powerful your spells are.  Also, just having the lvl 1 heal does not make you a dedicated healer.  You should also spec for "spirit healer" and try to get all the row 1 creation spells.

I am in Redcliff. When you say you should spec this or that - do you mean reload and replay the entire game up to this point? Like I said I put the game on easy already, what is so difficult in making an easy setting? I don't get it. This game's designers really dropped the ball on it. Pointlessly difficult.

[NaclynE]

I do admit that being a mage isn't easy.

I have been working on the Dwarven quest and got done ending the Carta but man I took some mad bumps and bruises along the way. Yeah one of the reasons why was because I kept triggering traps and didn't have Lilliana in the party (Have Morrigan, Sten, and Allister. I cannot switch any of them.) Now my main character is badly injured and I'm preatty much relying on keeping myself far far away and haveing the rest of the party mug people. I even found the last part of the proveing nuts because I lost everyone (including myself due to a heal spell not casting quick enough) except for Sten. I got soooo lucky and offed the boss and a archerer.

Other than that I feel like being a mage is fine you just got to play your cards right and safe and as well as have the right party.

[Kukuritty]

NetBeansAndJava wrote...

Redcliff is a nasty, nasty place, regardless of when you go... but if you go early... well, it's just a nightmare.  Personally, I think Redcliff should be toned down a notch or two.

Oh and archers do sorta suck right now.  But fear not -- archery is getting a buff in the next patch I hear.

I can't recall the last time I got this frustrated with a game - I wish I got my money back.

[Wishpig]

It sucks, you get five warriors (including shale and dog), three normal warriors, and two DPS two-handed warriors.



But you only get two mages, one is the closest too evil companion you can have, and the other is an old woman.



Wonder how bioware didn't see the flaw in that one. With great characters like Sten, Shale, Oghren, Alistar, and Lelina... I just don't want less then impressive wynee taking up a spot. She's not a weak character, but she just isn't as intresting as the others. And morrigan is constantly b***ing about how much of an awesomely good person I am, and she doesn't like it one bit.

[Tarrant12]

Beat it on normal with no heals... Didnt get a heal till almost half way through The bracillian forest... and i did that last

[chizow]

I agree about there being major issues with this game and its mage-centricness. Basically everything centers around major game imbalances with mages, there's numerous problems with this as covered in the OP's post. Besides the fact there's only 2 mage NPCs in this game, it basically means you're always going to play this game with Morrigan and/or Wynne. In every single playthrough.....

And that's not even getting into how badly the game favors mages in just about every aspect:

1) much better dps from spells
2) much better AoE from spells
3) much better sustained dps with spells and regen (death syphon, mass rejuv, spell blossom)
4) much better recovery of mana vs. stamina with pots
5) much better CC from spells
6) much better heals from spells
7) much better ranged damage
8) much better talent tree options and modularity

I'm sure there's more missing, that was a quick list of glaringly obvious advantages. The only real advantage of being melee is armor and survivability, but with Arcane Warrior and/or some of the sustained abilities and buffs you can tank pretty well as a mage as well.

Modifié par chizow, 12 novembre 2009 - 04:14 .

[Kolaris8472]

Yeah, if this was a conscious decision to just forgo Mages and do all-Warriors just for the heck of it, I should get whats coming to me. But when there's a severe lack of NPC Mages to make sure the game doesn't get too easy, and you can lose both of them by playing your character consistently, not knowing that there's no other Mages...somethings wrong.



Oh well. Going to start over as a Mage myself, and I'm sure I'll be able to enjoy the story this time.

[NetBeansAndJava]

chizow wrote...

I agree about there being major issues with this game and its mage-centricness. Basically everything centers around major game imbalances with mages, there's numerous problems with this as covered in the OP's post. Besides the fact there's only 2 mage NPCs in this game, it basically means you're always going to play this game with Morrigan and/or Wynne. In every single playthrough.....

And that's not even getting into how badly the game favors mages in just about every aspect:

1) much better dps from spells
2) much better AoE from spells
3) much better sustained dps with spells and regen (death syphon, mass rejuv, spell blossom)
4) much better recovery of mana vs. stamina with pots
5) much better CC from spells
6) much better heals from spells
7) much better ranged damage
8) much better talent tree options and modularity

I'm sure there's more missing, that was a quick list of glaringly obvious advantages. The only real advantage of being melee is armor and survivability, but with Arcane Warrior and/or some of the sustained abilities and buffs you can tank pretty well as a mage as well.

Pretty much agree, though I submit that mages not be nerfed... instead, buff other classes!  Give the melee at least some viable aoe.  Dual sweep or whatever doen't cut it.

Also, you're totall right about the fact that every play through will either have Whynne, Morrigan, or both.  Good thing I like Whynne

[Frostaxt]

I love Wynne!^^ Playing on hard and everything is manageable with her in the party.



Agreed though, that there should be at least another mage companion in the game. Well since a lot of people seem to want that, there might be coming a new mage companion in a future dlc, or a fan made mod.

[Vincent-RED]

That's why herbalism option is available and you make numerous potions. Sub skills are very helpful. Also making a tank with a full melee group is smart to attract most of the damage to him. when battling mixed class enemies always go for the mages they go down fast. I was able to beat the game on normal all the way through without using mages. I had a tank designed character(Allistar), heavy hitting character good knowcks downs in 2h spec(Sten) 2h maces or 2h axes), Rogue Liliana that speced assassination for good quick blows with use of poisons. My main character was duel wield (2 1h axes) speced berserker/reaver he carried the aoe damage with whirlwind and dual weapon sweep. Its possible to play the game any manner that you may like, just use everything that is available before you give up.

[Sable Rhapsody]

If you're really getting desperate and don't have a mage, pick up herbalism for those you do have. That way you'll be able to craft the potions you desperately need, and the potions will have more effect.

It's not really the healing that's the problem if you have no mage; it's the lack of control for large amounts of enemies that swarm you. Really, the only way I see around that with no mage is to build a fortress of a party with metric craptons of healing potions.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 12 novembre 2009 - 04:39 .

[chizow]

NetBeansAndJava wrote...

Pretty much agree, though I submit that mages not be nerfed... instead, buff other classes!  Give the melee at least some viable aoe.  Dual sweep or whatever doen't cut it.

Also, you're totall right about the fact that every play through will either have Whynne, Morrigan, or both.  Good thing I like Whynne

Oh I'm definitely not advocating any kind of nerf of mages, that would simply increase dependence and reliance on them even moreso.  I think there's some easy changes that can be made to improve balance (like adding stamina pots), some of which they're already working on like fixing dagger/bow damage, but there's some problems that are deep-rooted and wouldn't be easy to fix without wholesale changes to physical dmg classes and their talent groups/trees.

[Grayvisions]

I'm actually at a loss here. I haven't found the game difficult without mages at all, but then my PC is a healer. No damage spells except for one (frost) everything else I have is heal/buff + glyphs. I play as the tactician, guiding my team while I keep them alive. I have a Rogue I tried out, and she's been managing just fine without magic/healing to help. I merely made sure she got Herbalism as her first skill choice. She may not be able to steal effectively right away, but she'll survive.



Keep in mind, this is meant to be a "tactical game, not a strategic one" to paraphrase. That means even great heals will only go so far. You also need to keep in mind skills to raise your stamina/mana, skills to buff yourself, and guiding teamates to take out specific mobs (read: aim your rogue at the enemy mage) while you focus on other things. Even with the best tactics set for your team, there's still a LOT of micro-managing you have to do. You have to have a combination of skills in your team to be able to deal with everything. It IS possible to play without a healer, but you'll spend a lot of money on Potions. Even as a main healer, I still go through a lot of potions, especially in long battles like the Dragon battles in the Urn area.



Don't forget, you also have shards to increase resistances, traps that can completely stall groups of enemies, poisons, etc. Use everything the game is giving you. It's all there. No it's not easy, but that's part of the fun. As many armor/weapon mods I made to have overpowered characters, I turn them off when I'm actually playing through the game; it's just boring as hell ripping through mobs with no effort.

[chizow]

You guys advocating herbalism and pots are missing the point. Yes you can probably get through the game with Tier 4 herbalism and rotating the 4 different heal pots (since they're on different timers), but you're looking at an ungodly amount spent only on pots given those Tier 3 and 4 pots cost something like half a gold piece each to make....not to mention potion effectiveness is directly tied to Magic attribute as well.



I picked up everything in the game, did every quest I could find and I still struggled with money at times. Every time I hit 100-150GP it was quickly spent on one of the crazy priced items the vendors had or one of the Talent tomes to help correct some mistake I made 20+ hours ago.

[Sanguinius_nz]

Think outside the box.



Use rogues to scout an area out and set traps.



Equip your party with bows/crossbows and cause damage from a distance before the enemy closes in then swtich to melee to finish things up.



Use rogues to stealth ahead and kill key threats such as mages or alphas before your warriors get there then use stealth to hide until your big boys get there.



Have a herbalist make potions, on a side note potions do not share cool downs, eg a lesser health potion and a greater health potion are not on a shared cooldown. No idea if this is intentional or not.



Make use of salves when up against particular dmg types.



Dual wield characters can do a fair amount of AoE damage with dual strike and wirlwind. Have one or two toons like this in your party to help with swarms of low grade monsters.



Remember if everyone is a rogue or a warrior then they can all easily handly a monster or two solo there is no need to have everyone focused on one target, turn off threaten and distribute the incoming dmg.



If you are up against a lot of ranged use line of sight hide behind a corner and force them to come to you.

[soteria]

Honestly, if you thought, "I could really use a mage in my group, I think I'll go to the mage tower and get one," and then when you got there you decided to purge the tower, killing all the mages, I'm not sure what to tell you. My character would have preferred to purge the tower, but after realizing how powerful mages are she decided she really wanted them on her side.



Even staying in-character, I would expect the value of a mage as a companion would matter for making choices. Other than that, I'll just say that they told us our choices will have real consequences.

[Lavitage]

The dog + shale should be able to handle stunning mobs. 2 of Shale's trees can do that when maxed and the dog starts with dread howl.

For nuke damage there's Zevran. Just have him brew a bunch of bombs and huck them at darkspawn. Visit old shops for components if need be, Orzammar in particular has lots.

Your healing will be gimped but you should have the offense to make do anyway.

Modifié par Lavitage, 12 novembre 2009 - 08:56 .