112 réponses à ce sujet

[Kolaris8472]

I think a lot of people were missing the point. I had a chain of points in the original post that probably got lost in all the ranting.



Yes, you should need an even party distribution (at least on Normal+) to survive. Unfortunately, because Mages are so powerful they have to go out of their way to make sure the party cannot consist of 4 Mages. This can lead to ending up with 0 Mages at no real combat-conscious choice by the player. I would have added a Mage...if I had any.



Yes, your choices should have game-altering consequences. The way I played the first time through, I saw two Mages possessed by Demons very early on in my journeys and witnessed all the harm they brought to people. I was ready and willing to put up with Morrigan despite this, but she leaves of her own volition. If there had been an NPC Mage similar to that girl in the Magi Intro, the one who considered her Magical inclinations a curse, that would have been a perfect solution for this type of character. Hopefully we'll see more variation in NPC Mages through DLC.

[SirGCal]

greeneggsnoham wrote...


I agree, it's a bit odd that there are only two mage NPCs, seeing as the mage plays three roles in the party - DPS, Crowd Control, and healing. Actually, I would say that's the real problem - they play two roles that pretty much no one else can play - CC and healing. Rogues can do a little CC, but it's not nearly as effective as mass paralysis, blizzard, sleep, nightmare etc.

That's probably part of the reason Bioware made Wynne and Morrigan so totally opposite in character. They figured you'd be able to manage to keep at least one in the party. However, they undermined this by making it easy to lose Wynne altogether. I didn't purge the mage tower, but I did end up killing Wynne inside it. fortunately I had Morrigan so I was ok.

Oh, and for those saying that Shale can offer CC, that's only true if you have the expansion...

Any fighter can do Crowd Control. It's called Taunt... Run into the middle, Taunt them all. Heal the tank... Then focus fire. Pretty simple. works for me on Nightmare and I'm not using any mage CC other than the simple 'drop one now' spam from my DPS mage. (also not using AOEs, see earlier post). I have Shale but do not use him... Maybe I will try him for a bit tonight. Alistair works good for me at the moment.

If you're an AOE lover instead (was too easy with AOE for me), then just force shield the tank and cast your flavor. Taunt FTW. Way too easy though really going that route, that's why my DPS mage has ZERO AOE's currently. Focus-fire only. Makes it a bit more interesting (and expensive on the pots after a while, even with max herbs).

[yohoia]

I think the OP makes a really good point too. I started the game as a warrior, but realized rather quickly that I could not survive if i didn't turn down the difficulty level to easy - which on the other hand turned out to be just too easy and boring (which is the second problem that needs to be adressed in this game - easy is too easy and normal is too hard....). I rerolled a mage/healer, added Morrigan as mage/dps and now I am surviving just fine. I still think that the difficulty level on normal should be turned down a bit, but at least I can manage without constantly dying. I really think that the game needs 1. one more mage/NPC that is easier for the good guys to handle/keep than Morrigan, 2. improve the usefulness/survivability of warriors and rogues.

[Teshronesh]

if the game has one more mage you could have a pure mage party...but i really have to say, that i found leliana (rogue, u know) amazing towards the end. Her bear saved me very often when i had to heal my PC-tank, and with rapid shot and rapid aim she shoots very fast. Really did the job.

[kab]

haven't found the game difficult without mages at all, but then my PC is a healer.

Then you are a Mage, rendering your entire line irrelevant and silly.

[CottonKhandi]

I didn't read through all the replies on here but, I didn't have a healer either througout my entire playthrough. The only way I could get by was using a ton of stun moves as well as setting the following tactic for my entire pty: When health is less than 50% use a lesser healing poultice. Depending on where you are in the game you will have more than 3 lines for tactics so just add this one there. This keeps the micromanaging off of you for the most part. If you can give one of your characters herbalism level 1, they can make these poultices for you as you find elfroot. Just make sure you have flasks on you at all times as well. Hope this helps.

[Ninjaphrog]

NetBeansAndJava wrote...

Kukuritty wrote...

NetBeansAndJava wrote...

Kukuritty wrote...

I have enormous problems even in Redcliff due to not having healers -

Why not just take a healer?

Edit: maybe you mean you think there aren't any healers?  Whynne is a healer.  Morrigan can be made into one.  If you're a mage, you can spec as a healer.

I am inside the castle mid way - where could I get a healer? Morrigan finally got  a heal but it is weak and does not make a difference.

Not sure what castle you're in, but you should get Whynne if you want a premade healer.  She's in the mage tower.

Maybe your heals are weak b/c of your magic stat?  It determines how powerful your spells are.  Also, just having the lvl 1 heal does not make you a dedicated healer.  You should also spec for "spirit healer" and try to get all the row 1 creation spells.

The problem with Wynne is that she can be really difficult to get into your party...I had to restart 4 times to get it right.

First time is infront of the arcane barrier...you make the wrong choice she dies...

Second time is infront of the Templar in the prison, there is ONE!!!! (1!!) way to get her to NOT stand up on the steps and say "I cannot let you harm the others" and fight you to the death...which is pretty damn stupid considering JUST HOW important she ends up being later in the game(I wont say how)

[Ninjaphrog]

Oh and yes I'm having quite an easy time with the following set up:



PC: Blood mage

Wynne

Lelianna(full lockpicking)

Shale(Stone wall)



Shale has a ton of hp and armor and is extremely easy for wynne to heal(if she heals someone else cause shale loses agro, then you can always get a heal with your PC). Lelianna can be either backstab rogue, or archer(I picked backstab, but archer works too, making shale the ONLY melee, and he's a good one! tons of damage and HP)



So Shale = Massive 100+ melee damage at level 15 and so much HP and armor I don't care to go in and count it...



Wynne: Really good healer and always has the earthquake if things get nasty



Lelianna : Good crits and some CC



PC: Blood magic...what more is there to say? Extremely good CC with a damage over time, and the only charm effect in the game, to get a 5th person on your side for about 20 seconds!



I play on Normal, but it's pretty easy and thinking about going to hard, maybe nightmare.



Wanna get an easy time? Go Shale, Wynne, Lelianna, Blood Mage PC

[jadedjim]

if you need mages,make one. also,if you have the pc version,i read somewhere about a raven mod that allows you to retool your character while in camp. alas this is not possible for me because of my console handicap.

[Devlen12]

SirGCal wrote...

greeneggsnoham wrote...


I agree, it's a bit odd that there are only two mage NPCs, seeing as the mage plays three roles in the party - DPS, Crowd Control, and healing. Actually, I would say that's the real problem - they play two roles that pretty much no one else can play - CC and healing. Rogues can do a little CC, but it's not nearly as effective as mass paralysis, blizzard, sleep, nightmare etc.

That's probably part of the reason Bioware made Wynne and Morrigan so totally opposite in character. They figured you'd be able to manage to keep at least one in the party. However, they undermined this by making it easy to lose Wynne altogether. I didn't purge the mage tower, but I did end up killing Wynne inside it. fortunately I had Morrigan so I was ok.

Oh, and for those saying that Shale can offer CC, that's only true if you have the expansion...

Any fighter can do Crowd Control. It's called Taunt... Run into the middle, Taunt them all. Heal the tank... Then focus fire. Pretty simple. works for me on Nightmare and I'm not using any mage CC other than the simple 'drop one now' spam from my DPS mage. (also not using AOEs, see earlier post). I have Shale but do not use him... Maybe I will try him for a bit tonight. Alistair works good for me at the moment.

If you're an AOE lover instead (was too easy with AOE for me), then just force shield the tank and cast your flavor. Taunt FTW. Way too easy though really going that route, that's why my DPS mage has ZERO AOE's currently. Focus-fire only. Makes it a bit more interesting (and expensive on the pots after a while, even with max herbs).

Yes but if you go Arcane Warrior you can walk into the middle of a whole room, drop an AE fireball and be immune thanks to Arcane warrior talents and while everyone is knocked down cast a fire storm, they stand up Mind blast and then fireball is back up.... i can clear20-30 mobs easy with this without even getting below 90% health

[Devlen12]

Ninjaphrog wrote...

Oh and yes I'm having quite an easy time with the following set up:

PC: Blood mage
Wynne
Lelianna(full lockpicking)
Shale(Stone wall)

Shale has a ton of hp and armor and is extremely easy for wynne to heal(if she heals someone else cause shale loses agro, then you can always get a heal with your PC). Lelianna can be either backstab rogue, or archer(I picked backstab, but archer works too, making shale the ONLY melee, and he's a good one! tons of damage and HP)

So Shale = Massive 100+ melee damage at level 15 and so much HP and armor I don't care to go in and count it...

Wynne: Really good healer and always has the earthquake if things get nasty

Lelianna : Good crits and some CC

PC: Blood magic...what more is there to say? Extremely good CC with a damage over time, and the only charm effect in the game, to get a 5th person on your side for about 20 seconds!

I play on Normal, but it's pretty easy and thinking about going to hard, maybe nightmare.

Wanna get an easy time? Go Shale, Wynne, Lelianna, Blood Mage PC

this is nice but not the best party make up

Shale yes damn nice tank

PC Arcane Warrior/blood mage = BEST dps, BEST cc, BEST tank ( Yes with full arcane warrior talents you WILL have more armor and defense than shale, its REALLY dumb)

Lilianna for lock pick AND ranger cause Bear pet owns face

Wynne for Spirit healer and Arcane Warrior so she can be in plate.

Hands down its the best group make up unless you want to sub shale out for Morrigan ( I hate the **** so i dont ) and then you will have a Arcane Warrior Shape Shifter that when she shifts into bear will be almost immune to EVERYTHING,

Mages make the game till they buff rogues and warriors

[aliandracy]

A friend of mine beat normal with 2 warriors and 2 rogues. I asked him how the hell he did it without a healer. He shrugged and said, "well I just used a lot of potions." So it's doable.

[Devlen12]

aliandracy wrote...

A friend of mine beat normal with 2 warriors and 2 rogues. I asked him how the hell he did it without a healer. He shrugged and said, "well I just used a lot of potions." So it's doable.

Normal i think might be doable BUT hard and nighmare?  no not till they buff warriors and rogues.  Easy and Normal you just have to spec for LOTS of CC and LOTS AND LOTS of potions

[technosatyr]

I understand the OP's frustration, but I believe this is a very important flavor aspect. Over and over in the story we hear about the importance of mages: how powerful they are and how dangerous they are. I remember at one point somoene was saying a single mage is worth 12 normal soldiers.



That's how this game plays. Mages make or break fights here, because each one is EASILY worth two of any other character.



You have my respect for making choices consistent to your character, and my condolences that the logical consequence of that might be losing to the darkspawn.

[Skyhark]

I have played so far on normal difficulty up to 28% of the game, I never used a healer and I never used more then 1 mage (except in the tower with Wynne) So if people whine they are wiping on easy due to only 1 mage or no healer then the problem isnt the game imo lol.

[Devlen12]

technosatyr wrote...

I understand the OP's frustration, but I believe this is a very important flavor aspect. Over and over in the story we hear about the importance of mages: how powerful they are and how dangerous they are. I remember at one point somoene was saying a single mage is worth 12 normal soldiers.

That's how this game plays. Mages make or break fights here, because each one is EASILY worth two of any other character.

You have my respect for making choices consistent to your character, and my condolences that the logical consequence of that might be losing to the darkspawn.

I can rebute that, your playing a hero, yes mages are nasty people, but you are the best of the best a Grey Warden to boot and should be held to that standard, we are not on this game to play normal humans we are here to play HEROS.  Weither or not that we have Heroic str, and can pick up giant rocks or the speed to run circles around darkspawn till thier heads spin.

We are not saying NERF mages (( *Sigh* MMO speak i hates it )) we are saying give a little more to rogues and warriors to bring them to a little more par.

As it stands the only reason to have anything but a mage in your group is for picklocks, Mages do everything else better.

[Devlen12]

Skyhark wrote...

I have played so far on normal difficulty up to 28% of the game, I never used a healer and I never used more then 1 mage (except in the tower with Wynne) So if people whine they are wiping on easy due to only 1 mage or no healer then the problem isnt the game imo lol.

28% isnt going to be a problem if your chose the right talents and have a ton of pots.  Later your going to get higher level and so are the mobs and the spell casters with the mobs.

Easy and Normal are both doable, your going to figure out that hard and nightmare that you would rather be donkey punched repeatedly with a solid titanium glove in your ****** than do it with no mages... no exageration there i promise

[PatT2]

There are other things that are being missed as well. Sanguinius put it well. using stealth. Scouting. USE THE HOLD POSITION and have one person go ahead.

I hve only begun to explore trapping, poisons, etc. But there's balms that make you move faster, for instance. There are times when moving faster is a wonderful thing. Set ambushes. There's space between mobs where you have a little time. Lure things into your traps.

A lot of running' and gunning is getting folks killed, frustrated and angry. But if you're a hammer, I guess everything looks like a nail.

Play a mage once. Try being out there all alone a time or two, with NADA for protection. Sure, you can do tons of damage, but if you get hit. It doesn't take much.

The game favors a balanced team but the tools are all there if you want to expiriment. Before you complain about mages, how many deadly fire traps have you gone into?

Finally, Alistair is a TEMPLAR. Do you see what templar skills have. He can shut down magic, you realize. Sometimes, there's a Elite or a Boss that's got insane magic powers and is immune...Alistair can cut them down to size in a flash and in go the melee folks, who are the only ones with a chance in heck.

It's not a love-fest for mages, if you don't have a talented tank with you. Since the game has only been out a week, and i know how much stuff i have yet to explore that I truly want to explore, I can say with assurance that nobody has explored all their options in the time allotted thus far.

Besides, potions. Not all vendors have expensive stuff. It's only 1.5 silver for a flask. You can get mushroom nearly free. The vendor at the wizard's tower (after you do it) sells that lyrium (or whatever it's called )really, really cheap. The powder to make potions.

Also, having a mage warrior is a mixed blessing. Some protection from getting hit at the expense of those very AoE spells (and mana in general) if wearing armor means stealing from your mana to bolster your strength, well....

It's too easy to look at this without really opening the hood. As I said, if you're a hammer, everything just starts looking like a nail. Time to get some new tools.

[Devlen12]

PatT2 wrote...

There are other things that are being missed as well. Sanguinius put it well. using stealth. Scouting. USE THE HOLD POSITION and have one person go ahead.
I hve only begun to explore trapping, poisons, etc. But there's balms that make you move faster, for instance. There are times when moving faster is a wonderful thing. Set ambushes. There's space between mobs where you have a little time. Lure things into your traps.
A lot of running' and gunning is getting folks killed, frustrated and angry. But if you're a hammer, I guess everything looks like a nail.
Play a mage once. Try being out there all alone a time or two, with NADA for protection. Sure, you can do tons of damage, but if you get hit. It doesn't take much.
The game favors a balanced team but the tools are all there if you want to expiriment. Before you complain about mages, how many deadly fire traps have you gone into?
Finally, Alistair is a TEMPLAR. Do you see what templar skills have. He can shut down magic, you realize. Sometimes, there's a Elite or a Boss that's got insane magic powers and is immune...Alistair can cut them down to size in a flash and in go the melee folks, who are the only ones with a chance in heck.
It's not a love-fest for mages, if you don't have a talented tank with you. Since the game has only been out a week, and i know how much stuff i have yet to explore that I truly want to explore, I can say with assurance that nobody has explored all their options in the time allotted thus far.
Besides, potions. Not all vendors have expensive stuff. It's only 1.5 silver for a flask. You can get mushroom nearly free. The vendor at the wizard's tower (after you do it) sells that lyrium (or whatever it's called )really, really cheap. The powder to make potions.
Also, having a mage warrior is a mixed blessing. Some protection from getting hit at the expense of those very AoE spells (and mana in general) if wearing armor means stealing from your mana to bolster your strength, well....
It's too easy to look at this without really opening the hood. As I said, if you're a hammer, everything just starts looking like a nail. Time to get some new tools.

Im not burning you but again its someone posting without exploring the mage fully, MAGES are the best tanks, i can go into hard mode right now and fight flemith with just me and Wynne and not ever hit half life.  Arcane Warrior makes mages into Tanks that DO NOT SUFFER any DPS loss from casting in plate. AND it buffs  your attack with melee weapons off your Magic skill and not your str (Translated into the increase from Arcane Warrior)

I swing a ONE handed sword for 80s +19fire sustain from myself, +17 cold sustain from Wynne AND plus damage from my greater runes ((I think i have a +5electric and +5 cold right now)) Im doing over 120 damage a swing with a one hander with Haste buff running on TOP of that so im swinging faster than a rogue.

Oh and lets not forget right now i have a 137 defense and a 47 armor rating to boot.  the ONLY THING a mage cant do better than everyone else is pick locks right now.  This includes romances *Snicker* I kid I kid

[PatT2]

I will admit. I have not explore those dimensions of Arcane warrior. That sounds like fun. Mages cannot disarm traps either. I dont' know if they can pickpocket either.



All I can say for certain is that this game has not been out long enough for people to have exhausted all the possiblities of all the classes.



I didn't notice anyone listing Oghren.



Aw well, I'd rather be playing. Some day I might try to calculate...it would be interesting to see hard stats. But I remember Liara...from another bioware title (a person you also had to play fairly far into the plot to get, or you could wait until the end) but most folks went for her first after the first playthrough.



It's a bioware game, and I'm gonna go play. Now I want to go make a Arcane Warrior Your points are well taken, so are all the ones I've read, but the game is new. Let's just see how this plays and if there are some fixes/patches for other classes and maybe a new ally or two.



I have not finished but I've already done everything but. Just about. Never stolen tho. and missed a bunch of side quests, which is where the gold comes from. So, off to play. I will come back and see how the thing goes. Surely I have much to learn, as well as offer.

[Korva]

This thread is spoiler-heavy and does NOT belong in this forum. Please post in the appropriate forum.

SirGCal wrote...

Any fighter can do Crowd Control. It's called Taunt...

That is NOT crowd control, but aggro management, if we're sticking to MMO terms. Crowd control incapacitates an enemy. Warriors and rogues can pick up some stuns and knockbacks, but compared to what mages can do -- and they can do it at range -- it's nothing. Mages can do everything except pick locks and disarm traps, and they do it better than everyone else. And the worst is they can do it indefinitely because of lyrium potions, while a warrior or rogue who runs dry is screwed. Plus these classes run dry faster because of fatigue and lower Willpower.

Mages are stupidly out of line.

I don't give a damn about "but the lore/setting says they're godly". It isn't fun gameplay-wise if one class is so ridiculously better at everything, especially with the artificial imbalance of not being able to replenish stamina (unlike in the browser game, which had stamina balms). Mages in this game get the benefits of masive power without any of the drawbacks the setting says they have -- as usual. And it's true that a mage can cherry-pick from all the schools while the other classes are fools if they don't stick to one weapon style.

At the very least we need those soothing blams in different degrees of power, like lyrium potions. More AoE abilities for the melee types would help too. And the Arcane Warrior needs to be reined in. Didn't Bioware claim DA would not have an uber-hybrid fighter-mage?

Modifié par Korva, 13 novembre 2009 - 02:21 .

[Takrandro]

i personally have no problem witht he whole mage thing, my char is a mage himself witch helps balance everything big time, the inportant thing to do however is knowing in what trees to max out. frost and fire are both must haves(mainly frost) for crowd control, and mind blast to back u up when things get ugly. my group selection is most of the time this, main char(mage) 1 warrior(either alistair or sten,maybe shale) 1 rogue(lilliana mostly, since Zevran can't lockpick) and 1 mage,(morrigan or wynn) sometimes i replace the mage with a warrior, but only if i suspect i don't need much CC, couse thats morrigan's thingy.

[drallcom3]

Mages are not only overpowered, the fights are also tailored to them. 8-10 enemies per fight are not uncommon. Fewer but stronger enemies would be much more fair towards warriors and rogues. Unfortunately changing that is a lot of work, so it won't happen.

[SirGCal]

Mikey_205 wrote...

I dunno I never missed having a rogue and yet I couldnt imagine trying to finish the game without a warrior. I think rogues are a lil too weak but at the same time mages should be needed as much as warrior. I do find it odd that mages are offensive powerhouses or defensive powerhouses and yet there are not enough of them. Perhaps this will be fixed in DLC with new characters (heres hoping for an evil blood mage companion).

I dunno... Right now the Rogue in my party is hitting like a truck with a good bow. Over 252 dmg is her greatest and I'm always seeing 180's from her constantly. Get the dex and cunning up and they get quite nasty. Just a bit squishy like the mages so protect them. I haven't had as much fun with backstab (melee) rogues though. I like shooting from afar. Sniper style.

UPDATE: Two more tiny levels and now my rogue is hitting for up to 400 points! My mage isn't even close to that much on one target. He can one-shot most normal enemies now. And this is on Nightmare where they miss or resist at least as much as they hit.

Modifié par SirGCal, 14 novembre 2009 - 06:13 .

[Dr3xx]

I don't understand the thought process of people like the OP.



What RPG style game have you played, in which you have completely neglected healers? I cant personally name one. Even single players like Oblivion... you start out with a heal spell. You have to have heals.



If you made the conscious decision to murder your healers instead of keeping them around... I'm just not sure we can help you there. You made a slightly.. silly choice.





Anyway that said, I made it through Redcliff on hard with only Morigan's 1st heal spell and some pots... your lack of tactics is the problem there. As for the return to Denerim or whatever... I haven't got there, so I cant say how difficult it is... but I plan to run a healer soooo