117 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

How about cutting the false modesty and going 'I'm a better leader than Alistair' for HNMs?

[CalJones]

That's the best argument yet!

[Herr Uhl]

Aren't 95% of people's wardens not the hugest Mary Sues/Gary Stus this side of the Donarks anyways?

[Xilizhra]

Really? The fact that they want power makes them unworthy? Should we be turning to the people who are either unqualified to rule or simply don't give a damn about doing it? You'd think those that cannot do it or are apathetic towards it would really be the ones not best to rule.

It doesn't make them inherently unworthy, but... well, for various reasons (some biological, apparently), having a ruler who only works, genuinely, for the greater good is really quite rare.

[blothulfur]

There is the old cliche that the only good ruler is a reluctant ruler and Alistair certainly fits that bill but history has only shown us a few such examples such as Alfred the great and I still argue for a forced advancement of Ferelden culture through greater reprsentation of the people, after all the basic structure is in place and the squabbling of the bannorn could be taken to a legitimate authority with a parliament rather than biggest bastard takes all.

[Xilizhra]

There, I fully agree. My own current Warden would be happy to do so, but being a mage, instituting actual reforms would be tricky.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

How about cutting the false modesty and going 'I'm a better leader than Alistair' for HNMs?

That's one major reason, yes.

About personal ambition vs greater good. They don't have to collide or be necessarily mutually exclusive. I don't see it as black and white. As in, people who are efficient rulers generally only care about their own power vs those who care about the greater good can't be efficient rulers.

The way I see it, most efficient leaders / rulers (or the ones that really had a positive impact) had both with mixed degrees and percentages that we can't really know for sure. A personal sense of achievement, success and satisfaction coupled with a genuine desire to improve their community's condition. I see nothing necessitating those two opposing each other. In fact, they complement each other quite well.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Sadly, most people with ambition these days pretty much are very immoral, hence the association.

I think it also has to do with the masses hating the idea that some people are exceptional and generally better than them. Until this minority starts imposing itself and show results, then masses love them. Love / hate thing.

Ambitious people can and often do resort to "immoral" methods. We can say that in modern times and historically.
It's just that the idea that ambition in and of itself is an evil that bugs me. The idea that you can't want more for yourself and you wanting more for yourself necessarily means that you don't care about the rest. At least that's a modern conception, at least when it comes to political power (even money? I am not sure).

In the old days, personal ambition was seen as a very positive (and manly) trait.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 octobre 2010 - 04:38 .

[blothulfur]

Plenty of ambitious and effective lassie's around in history elizabeth the first, eleanor of aquitaine, boudicca, aud the red and a whole slew of roman matriarchs to mention a few so its not just a male thing.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Of course, Catherine the Great, Zenobia, Queen of Saba , Shammuramat and others. Just that culturally in the past, I would think ambition is more associated with males, even if females can be just as ambitious and just as efficient.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 octobre 2010 - 04:43 .

[blothulfur]

Never heard of Shammuramat I assume she's persian (sounds like it to me), not really studied the old birthplace of civiliztion lore because at heart i'm just a big hairy barbarian but what I have read is fascinating.

[LobselVith8]

Panurge Pantagruel wrote...

Chosing to be King/prince-consort at the Landsmeet is not right, is it?
I mean, even though are the one person that united Ferelden and brought down Loghain, the right thing to do would be let either Alistair and/or Anora reign, don't you guys agree?

And it looks like Bioware left this path (the righteous palladin-like path) easy to see by pairing you with Alistair and Arl Eamon, who by the way, is not even present at the ending scene at the court if you choose to marry Anora.

Sorry for the title but it was the best I could think of to avoid spoilers there .

I suppose it's an issue of personal choice. My elven mage Warden couldn't be King, so it wasn't an option. I trusted that a hardened Alistair and Anora could bring prosperity to Ferelden, and it worked pretty well: Both of them handed over the Hinterlands to the Dalish elves, both of them oversaw the nation's reconstruction efforts, both of them wanted to improve the lot of the mages, and they were both loved by the people. Alistair's presence as King also allows the elves in the alienage to get more rights and a presence in the royal court, while a solo Anora's reign would see a riot ensue. For my character, it was the right thing to do.

On the other hand, there's nothing to stop a Cousland Warden from wanting to wear the crown if your Warden believes he can be an effective leader of the nation (although it seems to be an issue of power between the newly crowned King and Anora, since she'll dismiss you as the Prince-Consort even if she named you as the King-Consort at the Landsmeet). A Cousland Warden could chose to be King-Consort beside Anora if Alistair is unhardened, since he says that he doesn't want to be King unless his personality is hardened.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Bloth.
She is Assyrian. She is the first who came to mind, there were other Assyrian Queens I think (she was the inspiration of the Semiramis greek myth). None of them is really that important though, the Assyrian Empire had more remarkable rulers, who happen to be male.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 octobre 2010 - 04:53 .

[blothulfur]

Now Semiramis I have heard of cheers Knight.

[Sarah1281]

I mean, even though are the one person that united Ferelden and brought down Loghain, the right thing to do would be let either Alistair and/or Anora reign, don't you guys agree?

Define 'right.' Anora knows what she's doing and has years of experience ruling (whether you like her priorities and thinks her style is what Ferelden needs can be debated of course) while Alistair is earnest and has royal blood. Either way, YOU are not the reigning king/queen, Anora or Alistair are if you marry them. You can amass quite a bit of power but you're not depriving Alistair or Anora of anything. And Alistair, hardened or not, is much happier not ruling. If you think the country needs him (or at least needs to not have Anora) then you can put that above his happiness but don't think you're depriving him of anything by not putting him on the throne.

[TSamee]

In terms of the actual topic, I don't enjoy pairing ambition with morality. I'd explain, but that's been put forward very eloquently by KoP himself, so never mind.

Honestly, people's perception of your actions change depending on their personal involvement with you, Alistair, Anora, Eamon, Loghain, countless other characters (and, if you want to get complex, vanilla NPCs) and the Landsmeet itself. The "morality" of your decision as it seems to others varies depending on who they are, to the point where people you've never seen will demonise you just because they heard from an influential source that you're "evil".

How you judge yourself is entirely different; only you know your motivations. Did you take the throne to profit personally, for the greater good, for power or for a mix of the three? Nothing immoral about ambition, but ambition purely for profit is, in itself, immoral. If you end up massively benefiting Ferelden as a result, then you might be venerated as a saint, but you're still, objectively speaking, a selfish sod.

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Sadly, most people with ambition these days pretty much are very immoral, hence the association.

I think it also has to do with the masses hating the idea that some people are exceptional and generally better than them. Until this minority starts imposing itself and show results, then masses love them. Love / hate thing.

In some cases maybe, but at least where I live, 90% of ambitious people are corrupt douchebags. It has nothing to do with people hating the idea that there are others that are better than them (well, better in the sense that they are better at something in particular, not that they are better human beings). So I do agree with Skadi there.

It's just that the idea that ambition in and of itself is an evil that bugs me. The idea that you can't want more for yourself and you wanting more for yourself necessarily means that you don't care about the rest. At least that's a modern conception, at least when it comes to political power (even money? I am not sure).

Agreed. Ambition in and of itself, is actually a very good thing. It would be almost impossible to achieve great things without it.

In the old days, personal ambition was seen as a very positive (and manly) trait.

Ehhh... 

Modifié par Zjarcal, 19 octobre 2010 - 06:45 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...
KoP... why did you have to bring in manliness into the equation? It's not like there weren't ambitious women back in the old days.

I specified what I meant in a following post. I meant culturaly speaking in the past in most cultures that I know of, ambition was more associated with men. But there has been women who were as ambitious and as efficient as men, of course. 

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...
KoP... why did you have to bring in manliness into the equation? It's not like there weren't ambitious women back in the old days.

I specified what I meant in a following post. I meant culturaly speaking in the past in most cultures that I know of, ambition was more associated with men. But there has been women who were as ambitious and as efficient as men, of course. 

Sorry, I hadn't read your following post.

(I really gotta stop replying before reading every post in the thread)

[KnightofPhoenix]

 Naaa it's ok, I do it too 

[CalJones]

Plenty of strong women in Badass of the Week (and men, too).

[Sylriel]

There are going to be as many different answers to this question of morality and ambition as there are players really.  To get a "true" answer, you will need to set certain parameters and dictate moral guidelines.  The question is how would you do that?  Whose guidelines and parameters do you choose?  Do you use your own?  Do you use someone else's?  How do you get others to agree?

It is too much of a headache for me to think about and offer my arguments so I am personally going to stay away from it.  Suffice to say, when I play HN's, I play as follows:

• If I am playing my HNM, Alistair becomes king with my Warden as his advisor.
• If I am playing my HNF, my HNF becomes queen in a political marriage (I'm male and usually like to get in character, but I can't do it very well when playing female characters and usually do not get involved with the romantic stuff).
• I do not like Anora and her attitude so she goes to the tower.  If I could, I would throw her to the denizens of Denerim and let them have their way with her.  I'm too lazy to make a mod for that.

Regardless of the talk Alistair gives about doing more for himself, he has a weak spine.  That will not change overnight if at all.  He will always be weak in one way or another.  So a Cousland will have power over the throne!  Ha!  Take that, Loghaine and Howe! 

As for another topic, what is with the attraction with Teagan?  The guy was a coward who hid in the chantry hall during the attack on Redcliffe. 

[LobselVith8]

Sylriel wrote...

Regardless of the talk Alistair gives about doing more for himself, he has a weak spine.  That will not change overnight if at all.  He will always be weak in one way or another.  So a Cousland will have power over the throne!  Ha! 

I have to disagree. King Alistair is the guy who, in the US, orders Greagoir to give the mages their freedom after the new tower is built and places the Elder of the Alienage in his royal court, regardless of what the Chantry thinks about the mages and despite all the controversy it causes with humans (and it gives hope for the elves that change is indeed possible). Those aren't the actions of a man with a weak spine; it may take some prodding to get him to accept his destiny as a King, but once he does, he's willing to put the effort into becoming an effective leader.

[Sylriel]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sylriel wrote...

Regardless of the talk Alistair gives about doing more for himself, he has a weak spine.  That will not change overnight if at all.  He will always be weak in one way or another.  So a Cousland will have power over the throne!  Ha! 

I have to disagree. King Alistair is the guy who, in the US, orders Greagoir to give the mages their freedom after the new tower is built and places the Elder of the Alienage in his royal court, regardless of what the Chantry thinks about the mages and despite all the controversy it causes with humans (and it gives hope for the elves that change is indeed possible). Those aren't the actions of a man with a weak spine; it may take some prodding to get him to accept his destiny as a King, but once he does, he's willing to put the effort into becoming an effective leader.

Regarding the mages, you posted this about them about a month ago.

As for Alistair's spine, he is still a man with a weak spine regardless of those actions you claim he performed  He has no problem performing when he knows he has someone's approval or backing.  Even after you have already chosen him to become king in the Landsmeet, regardless of his hardening, he still comes to you with hopes you will help him with running the kingdom.

Do not confuse willingness with having a strong backbone.  A hardened Alistair will be more determined and will readily take action than his previous self but that only means he is willing to fight his timidness harder than before.  As I said, it will not happen overnight if it happens at all.  He has a to change a lifetime of programming after all.

[Sarah1281]

Yeah, Alistair saying 'Hey, let's free the mages!' and then being shut down by the Chantry doesn't make him have a strong spine.