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[LobselVith8]

Sylriel wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sylriel wrote...

Regardless of the talk Alistair gives about doing more for himself, he has a weak spine.  That will not change overnight if at all.  He will always be weak in one way or another.  So a Cousland will have power over the throne!  Ha! 

I have to disagree. King Alistair is the guy who, in the US, orders Greagoir to give the mages their freedom after the new tower is built and places the Elder of the Alienage in his royal court, regardless of what the Chantry thinks about the mages and despite all the controversy it causes with humans (and it gives hope for the elves that change is indeed possible). Those aren't the actions of a man with a weak spine; it may take some prodding to get him to accept his destiny as a King, but once he does, he's willing to put the effort into becoming an effective leader.

Regarding the mages, you posted this about them about a month ago.

Have you seen the US ending? Alistair orders Greagoir to free the mages once the new tower is built, and Greagoir responds "Yes, your Majesty." While I realize that Gaider has stated that the Magi boon doesn't happen in canon, this particular scene has never been addressed.

Sylriel wrote...

As for Alistair's spine, he is still a man with a weak spine regardless of those actions you claim he performed  He has no problem performing when he knows he has someone's approval or backing.  Even after you have already chosen him to become king in the Landsmeet, regardless of his hardening, he still comes to you with hopes you will help him with running the kingdom.

Do not confuse willingness with having a strong backbone.  A hardened Alistair will be more determined and will readily take action than his previous self but that only means he is willing to fight his timidness harder than before.  As I said, it will not happen overnight if it happens at all.  He has a to change a lifetime of programming after all.

He comes to the Warden because he trusts the Warden; the Warden is the only friend that is still alive after the rest died at Ostagar. Everyone seems to forget that when he has his rant at the Landsmeet; Alistair lost virtually everyone he cared about, and the only other person still standing who he cared about shipped him off to the Chantry because his Orlesian wife didn't like him.

I think you're underestimating Alistair; he's willing to change the lot of elves, something even his father wouldn't do (despite the mother of his second child being an elf herself). The fact that the Alienage only gets representation in the royal court if Alistair is made King is an example of his backbone in the midst of all the controversy it causes, and his willingness to go against the status quo of countless generations.

[LobselVith8]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Yeah, Alistair saying 'Hey, let's free the mages!' and then being shut down by the Chantry doesn't make him have a strong spine.

Again, I was addressing the US ending scene, not the post-DR ceremony scene.

[Sylriel]

LobselVith8 wrote...
<snip>... a whole bunch of things to prove Alistair all of a sudden grows a backbone overnight...</snip>

Well, regardless of your opinion on the existence of Alistair's backbone, I refer you back to the original intent of my earlier post:

My HN Warden, male or female, will have a strong influence over the throne.

AND

What is with the attraction with Teagan, the coward of Redcliffe?

[Sarah1281]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Yeah, Alistair saying 'Hey, let's free the mages!' and then being shut down by the Chantry doesn't make him have a strong spine.

Again, I was addressing the US ending scene, not the post-DR ceremony scene.

And why, exactly, would the Chantry suddenly be fine with free mages if a mage died to end the Blight rather than living through it? 

Alistair: Knight-Commander Greagoir, please step forward. Tell me, what is the situation currently with the Circle of Magi?
Greagoir: We have found a few surviving apprentices, but effectively the Circle has been destroyed... unfortunate, but necessary/ Under control, though the Circle has been greatly weakened. Still, there have been no further possessions.
Alistair: I wish to see the Circle restored, but I understand the Veil at the tower is too weak. That being the case, I wish a new tower built--with the Chantry's aid. And it will bear the Hero's name.
Greagoir: A fine idea, your Majesty.
Alistair: And once the tower is built, Knight-Commander, I am granting the new Circle autonomy.
Greagoir: What?! But... your Majesty! I think what has happened only proves--!
Alistair: It proves what a substantial contribution a mage can make. They have earned the chance to prove they can watch themselves, don't you agree?
Greagoir: I... yes, your Majesty. As you say.

(I'm totally on Greagoir's side here. Regardless of what the Warden did, Uldred and his followers proved that they kind of fail at watching themselves.)

As Alistair pledges to free the mages if you ask if you live and Anora does the same ordering/pledging if she's queen, Alistair cannot just free the Circle like that. He can declare it. He can tell Greagoir that once the Tower is built that he will grant them autonomy (he doesn't do it here). He won't be able to.

[Panurge Pantagruel]

Yeah, I always get that feeling that very fact that Alistair doesn't want to be king will make him a good one; but that always clash with the idea that my warden could do it better! Why not?! Alistair is so undecided about everything (except about Loghain)... and Anora is apparently a good ruler but not a strong one, else her "daddy" wouldn't had f****d things up so bad while she was still there...



And no, I don't think ambition is inherently immoral. I was just asking if you guys think it is immoral in this case.



Finally, in Bann Teagan's credit, he does have a nice goatee and do pretty good acrobatic stunts (ask Connor, he'll tell ya).

[Sarah1281]

What is with the attraction with Teagan, the coward of Redcliffe?

Teagan? Coward? The man who was the first to openly question Loghain after Ostagar? The one who stayed in Redcliffe (which wasn't his land) and organized the town to defend against the zombies? The one who knowingly walked into a trap to cover your entrance and to protect his family? Are we talking about the same Teagan?

[Sylriel]

Sarah1281 wrote...

What is with the attraction with Teagan, the coward of Redcliffe?

Teagan? Coward? The man who was the first to openly question Loghain after Ostagar? The one who stayed in Redcliffe (which wasn't his land) and organized the town to defend against the zombies? The one who knowingly walked into a trap to cover your entrance and to protect his family? Are we talking about the same Teagan?

When the Warden arrived, he handed the supervision of the defense over to the Warden.  He stayed indoors to "protect the women and the children" when everyone
including self professed coward Lloyd fought outside.  He did go inside the castle to what could only be a trap, but I believe he did that because he saw the Warden can kick butt and would hopefully save his.

So yeah, I think we're talking about the same Teagan. 

[Sarah1281]

Sylriel wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

What is with the attraction with Teagan, the coward of Redcliffe?

Teagan? Coward? The man who was the first to openly question Loghain after Ostagar? The one who stayed in Redcliffe (which wasn't his land) and organized the town to defend against the zombies? The one who knowingly walked into a trap to cover your entrance and to protect his family? Are we talking about the same Teagan?

When the Warden arrived, he handed the supervision of the defense over to the Warden. 

Teagan: Now then. There is much to do before night falls. I've put two men in charge of the defense outside. Murdock, the village mayor, is outside the chantry. Ser Perth, one of Eamon's knights, is just up the cliff at the windmill, watching the castle. You may discuss with them the preparations for the coming battle.

Teagan, like any half-decent leader, is not determined to micromanage every little thing anyone does. He places competent men in charge of different parts of the defense and you confer with them.

 He stayed indoors to "protect the women and the children" when everyone
including self professed coward Lloyd fought outside. 

PC: Why are you in the chantry with the villagers?
Teagan: Ser Perth insists. He wants me to be with the villagers, so everyone he needs to protect is in one place. I don't mind, to be honest. The point of all this is to protect the villagers, and I can do that best here. This is the last line of defense, should things go amiss.
PC: Won't that look cowardly?
Teagan: I'm not here for glory. I would prefer being outside, but Perth has a point. We could bring some men in to stand beside me, but I'd rather keep the monsters away from the villagers if possible.

He's the leader. The leader isn't as expendable as everyone else and therefore isn't supposed to be on the front lines (as Cailan learned the hard way). He wanted to fight but Perth pointed out that, as the leader, he had to live. Plus, in the Chantry he could keep morale up and be the last line of defense agaisnt the zombies that break in.

He did go inside the castle to what could only be a trap, but I believe he did that because he saw the Warden can kick butt and would hopefully save his.

Teagan: Here's what I propose: I go in with Isolde and you enter the castle using the secret passage. My signet ring unlocks the door. Perhaps I will... distract whatever evil is inside and increase your chances of getting in unnoticed. What do you say?
PC: I can't let you do this. It's insane.
Teagan: What choice do either of us have? If your business with Eamon is important, you're going to have to go inside to find him. The village is gone. There's nobody left to help us. If you choose not to go, I suppose it's up to me to do what I can. Here is my signet ring. It will open the lock on the door in the mill. Whatever you do, Eamon is the priority here. If you have to, just get him out of there. Isolde, me, and anyone else... we're expendable.
PC: I could stop you from doing this, you know.
Teagan: So you could. But what would be the point? Do you really want to endanger my little nephew and especially my brother? I don't.

So yeah, I think we're talking about the same Teagan. 

If you say so...

[Sylriel]

Sarah1281 wrote...

PC: Why are you in the chantry with the villagers?
Teagan: Ser Perth insists. He wants me to be with the villagers, so everyone he needs to protect is in one place. I don't mind, to be honest. The point of all this is to protect the villagers, and I can do that best here. This is the last line of defense, should things go amiss.
PC: Won't that look cowardly?

This.

In my warden's mind, he already looks cowardly when my warden asked this question.  It is easy to let someone else convince you to do something if that's what you want to do in the first place. It is also easy to claim you really wanted to do something once you've already been "forced' from doing it.

Since my warden was not present when the conversation between Teagan and Perth happened and since my warden doesn't know Teagan's character, I choose to let my warden side with suspicion and judge base on what my warden sees.

Perhaps it is wrong for me or my warden to judge Teagan so.  And I do not claim to be correct.  It is obvious other people have their opinion of Teagan and they like him.  I am curious what they see.  Which is why I asked that was with the attraction?

Thank you for sharing with me your opinions of Teagan.  It is appreciated.  And in time, I may have a different opinion of him.

[Sarah1281]

I know I was frankly relieved to see a relative of Cailan's who wasn't running headfirst into an ogre in an epic quest for glory. I only chose the cowardly option because I figured it was the most relavent one to this discussion. No one is forcing Teagan to defend Redcliffe. He won't go up to the castle, even with you, until the village is safe. If you don't save it, he's openly distraught and hopeless because he failed to save the people. He nearly dies in the Chantry instead of running like a coward would do. If he were a coward, he'd have left Redcliffe and perhaps promised to try to send aid. It's not even his land, anyway.

[TJPags]

Wait - you can actually LOSE the battle at redcliffe???



And the game doesn't end?

[Sarah1281]

TJPags wrote...

Wait - you can actually LOSE the battle at redcliffe???

And the game doesn't end?

No. You can tell them you're not going to help and then leave. If you leave at any point after Tomas takes you to Teagan and before you face the zombies that night and go further than camp, there's a cutscene of the zombies killing everyone and you find Teagan, barely alive, in the Chantry.

[TJPags]

Ahhhhhhh . . . okay then

[Sylriel]

TJPags wrote...

Wait - you can actually LOSE the battle at redcliffe???

And the game doesn't end?

Yes.  If you leave Redcliffe after speaking with Teagan, Redcliffe is lost.  It is also lost if you turn down Teagan's request to help.

I have never lost Redcliffe, but I believe you go to Redcliffe castle next to continue as before.


EDIT:

Oops.  Too slow in posting.  LOL

Modifié par Sylriel, 20 octobre 2010 - 02:56 .

[TJPags]

I've never done this - even when Morrigan gets ****y about it - i like killing things.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...
Teagan, barely alive, in the Chantry.

Saved by the power of plot that can defy even logic.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 octobre 2010 - 02:57 .

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
Teagan, barely alive, in the Chantry.

Saved by the power of plot that can defy even logic.

I think it was the fact that demon!Connor really wanted that jester.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
Teagan, barely alive, in the Chantry.

Saved by the power of plot that can defy even logic.

I think it was the fact that demon!Connor really wanted that jester.

Of course. Everyone who wants to conquer the world needs to have a jester.

[Sylriel]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
Teagan, barely alive, in the Chantry.

Saved by the power of plot that can defy even logic.

I think it was the fact that demon!Connor really wanted that jester.

Of course. Everyone who wants to conquer the world needs to have a jester.

Would he look good wearing a jester hat with the little bells?

He may have to lose the goatee.

[TJPags]

Hey, noble clothing already looks like something a jester would wear . . .

[Sarah1281]

And he's got those jazz hands.

[KnightofPhoenix]

And the voice

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And the voice

That always translates in my head into "nobody beats the Wiz . . NOBODY"

And yea, now I'm giving away my age . . . .

[LobselVith8]

Sylriel wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
... a whole bunch of things to prove Alistair all of a sudden grows a backbone overnight...

Well, regardless of your opinion on the existence of Alistair's backbone, I refer you back to the original intent of my earlier post:

My HN Warden, male or female, will have a strong influence over the throne.

AND

What is with the attraction with Teagan, the coward of Redcliffe?

I can see that as the case if the Warden is a female Cousland and married to Alistair, but if you're talking about a male Cousland marrying Anora, your Warden is relegated to Prince-Consort by Anora, regardless of whether you agreed to being Prince or King-Consort.

Sarah1281 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Yeah, Alistair saying 'Hey, let's free the mages!' and then being shut down by the Chantry doesn't make him have a strong spine.

Again, I was addressing the US ending scene, not the post-DR ceremony scene.

And why, exactly, would the Chantry suddenly be fine with free mages if a mage died to end the Blight rather than living through it? 

Alistair: Knight-Commander Greagoir, please step forward. Tell me, what is the situation currently with the Circle of Magi?
Greagoir: We have found a few surviving apprentices, but effectively the Circle has been destroyed... unfortunate, but necessary/ Under control, though the Circle has been greatly weakened. Still, there have been no further possessions.
Alistair: I wish to see the Circle restored, but I understand the Veil at the tower is too weak. That being the case, I wish a new tower built--with the Chantry's aid. And it will bear the Hero's name.
Greagoir: A fine idea, your Majesty.
Alistair: And once the tower is built, Knight-Commander, I am granting the new Circle autonomy.
Greagoir: What?! But... your Majesty! I think what has happened only proves--!
Alistair: It proves what a substantial contribution a mage can make. They have earned the chance to prove they can watch themselves, don't you agree?
Greagoir: I... yes, your Majesty. As you say.

(I'm totally on Greagoir's side here. Regardless of what the Warden did, Uldred and his followers proved that they kind of fail at watching themselves.)

As Alistair pledges to free the mages if you ask if you live and Anora does the same ordering/pledging if she's queen, Alistair cannot just free the Circle like that. He can declare it. He can tell Greagoir that once the Tower is built that he will grant them autonomy (he doesn't do it here). He won't be able to.

I never said that the Chantry would allow this; I said he ordered Greagoir to have the templars recognize that the new Tower would be given autonomy, and that's precisely what this scene depicts.

In addition, I'm completely against Greagoir's argument here; there's no reason that armed and armored drug addicts should be given total control over men, women, and children. The incident at the Tower never would have happened had mages been given autonomy in the first place. The Dales, Arlathan, and the Disciples of Haven are proof that mages can exist with non-mages and not destroy all of Thedas; even Rivian has mages in positions of authority, based on the codex by Brother Genitivi.

[Sarah1281]

I never said that the Chantry would allow this; I said he ordered Greagoir to have the templars recognize that the new Tower would be given autonomy, and that's precisely what this scene depicts.



In addition, I'm completely against Greagoir's argument here; there's no reason that armed and armored drug addicts should be given total control over men, women, and children. The incident at the Tower never would have happened had mages been given autonomy in the first place. The Dales, Arlathan, and the Disciples of Haven are proof that mages can exist with non-mages and not destroy all of Thedas; even Rivian has mages in positions of authority, based on the codex by Brother Genitivi.

If the Chantry doesn't allow it and Alistair is forced to quickly rescind his orders then that is not a show of strength from him and actually points away from him having a backbone.



Also, Uldred's possession by a pride demon was what caused the situation at the Tower to get out of control. The blood mages would have still been there but they would have known what was going on and not had such chaos had Uldred not been possessed and then started forcibly turning others into abominations. Uldred could have been tempted and possessed at any point in time and the mages having autonomy would NOT have stopped Uldred's rampage. Besides, until the lyrium drives them mad and they retire, we have no reason to think that being addicted to lyrium in any way prevents them from guarding the mages and keeping order.