101 réponses à ce sujet

[Evil_Weasel]

First you guys need to start using Biotic cus there aint no Bionic powers in the game.



Second, most of the game is science fiction, even element zero mass effect fields. Argue all you like, but faster than light travel in any science fiction you have ever seen must be reclassified as magic by your definition.



There is no conceivable way to travel faster than light, so if a source of fiction explains how their characters get from one place to another via FTL travel, then it is fiction, if they explain it in the fiction, then they are explaining the science behind the fiction.



Same with laser rifles, we cant make a compact lethal military style assault laser rifle, but you see that sorta thing in science fiction, that doesnt make it magic.



In Star Wars, the force is magic because its source is intangible and only vaguely explainable by those who are experts in its use. Another problem is the complete lack explanation (unless you believe that magical mitaclorian bacteria thing) given to us despite its use.



Another example is Battle Star Galactica, Terminator, and even the Geth but we do not have the ability to create an AI capable of independent thought, lateral problem solving, and original concepts, but we can imagine this as an evolution of the AIs we can make today.



For all we know there are over 1,000 elements in the universe; we only know of 115 elements or so. Perhaps there really is an element zero, probably not, but this fictional element was the bases for the fictional science of mass effect fields in the game and thus it is science fiction.



That said, the science used to explain the biotics in the game leaves Dominate and Reave unexplained somewhat. If we are to assume that Dominate is an Ardat-Yakshi ability, then that means it is science fiction in that the joining of nervous systems an explained aspect of the Asari.



But that leaves us with Reave and its health leach, so I guess if we can explain that, even with fictional science we can remove all traces of magic from the game, and be all the way back to science fiction.

[Thane19]

Same with laser rifles, we cant make a compact lethal military style assault laser rifle, but you see that sorta thing in science fiction, that doesnt make it magic.

Aaaactually, that one isn't all that far-fetched. We already have directed energy weapons, it's really not that far of a jump from there to lasers that one can carry around. It's merely coming up with a smaller power source- like how the computer went from being the size of a room, to being able to be on a normal-sized desk with ease.

[Lumikki]

Evil_Weasel wrote...

Second, most of the game is science fiction, even element zero mass effect fields. Argue all you like, but faster than light travel in any science fiction you have ever seen must be reclassified as magic by your definition.

There is no conceivable way to travel faster than light, so if a source of fiction explains how their characters get from one place to another via FTL travel, then it is fiction, if they explain it in the fiction, then they are explaining the science behind the fiction.

Same with laser rifles, we cant make a compact lethal military style assault laser rifle, but you see that sorta thing in science fiction, that doesnt make it magic.

In Star Wars, the force is magic because its source is intangible and only vaguely explainable by those who are experts in its use. Another problem is the complete lack explanation (unless you believe that magical mitaclorian bacteria thing) given to us despite its use.

Another example is Battle Star Galactica, Terminator, and even the Geth but we do not have the ability to create an AI capable of independent thought, lateral problem solving, and original concepts, but we can imagine this as an evolution of the AIs we can make today.

For all we know there are over 1,000 elements in the universe; we only know of 115 elements or so. Perhaps there really is an element zero, probably not, but this fictional element was the bases for the fictional science of mass effect fields in the game and thus it is science fiction.

That said, the science used to explain the biotics in the game leaves Dominate and Reave unexplained somewhat. If we are to assume that Dominate is an Ardat-Yakshi ability, then that means it is science fiction in that the joining of nervous systems an explained aspect of the Asari.

But that leaves us with Reave and its health leach, so I guess if we can explain that, even with fictional science we can remove all traces of magic from the game, and be all the way back to science fiction.

Magic is anything what can't be explained by science (theories).


Many stuff what exist in science fiction are based teories what could be possible based science, but can't be proven to be true or false by todays science. Point is they are still based science theories, not in magic.

Faster than light theories.
Laser cutting

These science theories are usually based in some matematic formula or known things in our reality, not just invented from human imagination as believing it could be possible, because no-one can prove it to be wrong. 

Modifié par Lumikki, 20 octobre 2010 - 07:22 .

[Evil_Weasel]

Lumikki wrote...


Magic is anything what can't be explained by science (theories).


Many stuff what exist in science fiction are based teories what could be possible based science, but can't be proven to be true or false by todays science. Point is they are still based science theories, not in magic.

Faster than light theories.
Laser cutting

These science theories are usually based in some matematic formula or known things in our reality, not just invented from human imagination as believing it could be possible, because no-one can prove it to be wrong. 

Well since we can use Wikipedia then howabout this:

Science fiction is a genre of fiction dealing with the impact of imagined innovations in science or technology, often in a futuristic setting.[1][2][3] It differs from fantasy in that, within the context of the story, its imaginary elements are largely possible within scientifically established or scientifically postulated laws of nature
(though some elements in a story might still be pure imaginative
speculation). Exploring the consequences of such differences is the
traditional purpose of science fiction, making it a "literature of
ideas".[4] Science fiction is largely based on writing rationally about alternative possibilities.[5] The settings
for science fiction are often contrary to known reality, but the
majority of science fiction relies on a considerable degree of suspension of disbelief provided by potential scientific explanations to various fictional elements.

Nearly every bit of this games technology is based on mass altering fields generated by element zero by either applying a positive charge to raise the mass, or a negitive charge to lower the mass of objects in the field. This includes biotic abilities. Science fiction does not reqiure there to be a grounding in todays technology or for any theories to be present about said tech. It need only have an explination for the science behind it, even if that science is ......fictional.

Take for example Star Treck, Dilithium crystals that powered the warp drive on starships in that universe. Even if we do travel faster than light some day, that is probably not how we will do it. None the less, they attempted to explain their fictional science.

Im sorry, but if your going to ignore that Mass Effect does attempt to explain in a real world maner how things work, albet with a fictional matirial, then you can believe that it is a fantasy game. I for one would just like to see it stay a good science fiction game and continue to see "In universe explainable abilities."

[SurfaceBeneath]

Biotics were always space magic.

[Lumikki]

Evil_Weasel wrote...

Lumikki wrote...


Magic is anything what can't be explained by science (theories).


Many stuff what exist in science fiction are based teories what could be possible based science, but can't be proven to be true or false by todays science. Point is they are still based science theories, not in magic.

Faster than light theories.
Laser cutting

These science theories are usually based in some matematic formula or known things in our reality, not just invented from human imagination as believing it could be possible, because no-one can prove it to be wrong. 

Well since we can use Wikipedia then howabout this:

Science fiction is a genre of fiction dealing with the impact of imagined innovations in science or technology, often in a futuristic setting.[1][2][3] It differs from fantasy in that, within the context of the story, its imaginary elements are largely possible within scientifically established or scientifically postulated laws of nature
(though some elements in a story might still be pure imaginative
speculation). Exploring the consequences of such differences is the
traditional purpose of science fiction, making it a "literature of
ideas".[4] Science fiction is largely based on writing rationally about alternative possibilities.[5] The settings
for science fiction are often contrary to known reality, but the
majority of science fiction relies on a considerable degree of suspension of disbelief provided by potential scientific explanations to various fictional elements.

Nearly every bit of this games technology is based on mass altering fields generated by element zero by either applying a positive charge to raise the mass, or a negitive charge to lower the mass of objects in the field. This includes biotic abilities. Science fiction does not reqiure there to be a grounding in todays technology or for any theories to be present about said tech. It need only have an explination for the science behind it, even if that science is ......fictional.

Did you read what you quoted from Wiki Science fiction. It did not say totally invented fiction by human imagination what doens't have to make any sense, but fiction based rationaly alternative possibilities. My point is, fiction doesn't have to based anything what we have today, but it can't contradictory what we know in todays science. Meaning most of science fiction is based some science teories, what can't be proven to be right or wrong. It's fiction, but science fiction is not same as magic, what doens't have to make any sense how it's possible.

Also remember many science fiction stories and movies also have partly magic in it, that doens't mean the story or movie is not science fiction, just because some part of it isn't. Like Mass Effect game has both in it. Usually I don't like when some science fiction has technology toys what doesn't make any sense. I don't mind if some creature is telepathic or has powers beyond reason as magical, because they can just spice the science fiction game, movie or story.

Modifié par Lumikki, 20 octobre 2010 - 09:39 .

[uzivatel]

I understood those powers as the biotics letting them to bridge the gap between them and the target ... what follows is probably some crazy asari mind thing.

This thread should probably not be in the non-spoiler forum.

[Foolsfolly]

Biotics were always magic. From the moment I lifted an enemy in the air in ME1 I knew it was magic and just another name for the Force.



It's been there since day one and so I don't see too big of a deal about it in ME2.



Although, I did dislike the Dominate ability. Biotics were never shown to have any control over people's minds previously....unless it's some kind of foreshadowing that Reaper indoctrination is merely biotic manipulations....hmm...I need to go talk to Mordin in the tech-lab.

[Alchemist02]

Magic =/= anything we cant explain with science

Just because our limited science cant explain something does not mean its impossible to do or that it cannot exist.

It never accures to most people that in 100-200 years we might have advanced in science? that things that todays scientists say is ''impossible'' might be possible?

''Blowing up a planet? IMPOSSIBLE!'' Look at nuclear weapons now... we have enough of them to destroy earth several times over.

''Lasers weapons?! IMPOSSIBLE!''  Laser weapons do infact exist (tho they are mostly prototypes) 

''Space ships!? IMPOSSIBLE!'' Not impossible, just a matter of time and resources (which unfortunatly no country is willing to do, but hey screw space exploration as long as we can keep pointing guns at each other right?)

Modifié par BrotherShepherd, 20 octobre 2010 - 12:27 .

[Foolsfolly]

But it's still magic even if you add one element to it and follow rules.



I mean Lyrium is the Element Zero of Dragon Age and that's still magic.

[Anglerfish]

Mass Effect - putting the fantasy in science fantasy. This is like complaining about psychic powers in Star Trek or just about anything in Star Wars.



whatapointlesstopic.jpg

[Evil_Weasel]

It seems there is a bit too much focus on science fiction or fantasy debate, with the root of the problem being all biotics are magic. There is a huge difference between biotics and the force, the force from Star Wars is truly magic as it need no explanation what so ever, it can do anything from telepathy, healing, electrocuting people, and even making people into ghost.

In Mass Effect we were given 3 categories of biotic powers. My main point is, even if you cant be convinced biotics are not magic, does Reave and Dominate fit into the rules we were given by biotics.

So let us take that the convention of the Mass Effect universe contains element zero, its real and works in all the ways we have come to expect. If we excuse Dominate as an Ardat-Yakshi ability, the issue is are they in line with biotics as we were told by the game itself?

Thanks for all the opinions, remember not to just accept hand wave explanations from your story tellers, if you let them get away with it then it just makes them lazy. Once they get to lazy about the story and their own rules, who knows what will get trashed next. If you give developers a pass on too much they will just churn out crap and expect the sheep to buy it, and our pastime will degrade in quality in the process, it has happened before.

Thanks again for the opinions.

Modifié par Evil_Weasel, 20 octobre 2010 - 03:34 .

[Nicodemus]

Pacifien wrote...

I've always been a big opponent of Reave in the strategy forums simply because I find the power to be overpowered. A large element of that is the leeching aspect for health. It would have been better had they cut that part of the power out of it. Would have left us with a power that's basically Warp+Neural Shock, which I'm sort of fine with.

Actually Pacifien we could expand that slightly to make more sense. For example I would have had Reave do exactly as you suggest and be a Warp + Neural shock, but I would have also given it the bonus leaching ability when used on another Biotic. So the description of it could be:

The power employs mass effect fields to biotically
attack the target's nervous or synthetic systems and prevent healing.
Restores some health and gives a temporary health bonus when the power is
used against other Biotics, but does not give this ability when used on non Biotics. Reave also does double damage to
armor and barriers.

That way you can only get the healing bonus when you fight another Biotic and not from every encounter. It would make it a tad more fair and not as overpowered.

Modifié par Nicodemus, 20 octobre 2010 - 03:43 .

[sinosleep]

I always just viewed charge as a mini version of the mass relays and as such phasing through other items was never an issue for me.

[Talogrungi]

Eenteresting. I always thought that Samara's Reave ability made a kinda sense. All her daughters have the ability to drain the life-force from other beings using biotics, so it's not a massive stretch for Samara to have similar abilities. Perhaps it's the uncontrollable urge to USE that ability is what defines an Asari as an ardat-yakshi, not simply posessing it.

[Evil_Weasel]

Talogrungi wrote...

Eenteresting. I always thought that Samara's Reave ability made a kinda sense. All her daughters have the ability to drain the life-force from other beings using biotics, so it's not a massive stretch for Samara to have similar abilities. Perhaps it's the uncontrollable urge to USE that ability is what defines an Asari as an ardat-yakshi, not simply posessing it.

The game mentions that Ardat-Yakshi are effectivly sterile and in the place of normal ..... mateing, they are sorta a like succubus while Samara can procreat, Morinth can not.

[SSV Enterprise]

SirVincealot wrote...

SSV Enterprise wrote...
It's not out of nowhere, it's from the eezo nodules in the biotic's body.

Nodules don't break all known laws of physics and chemistry (gravity, thermodynamics and momentum to name just three).

And Element Zero is magic. It's the unexplained/unexplainable goop that can create event horizons by . . . what exactly? "Mutating DNA" is not an answer, it's some writer _deepening_ the unexplained by pulling technobabble out of his woo-hoo.

Best to ignore all the "science" in MASS EFFECT and just enjoy the surface - it is, after all, very *fine* surface indeed!

Element zero can only do one of two things:  creat a mass effect field that increases an object's mass, and create a field that decreases an object's mass.  It does this by tapping into dark energy when an electrical current is run through.  Advanced applications of this can be understood, if you would actually read the codex- that's why it is there, after all.

[Weiser_Cain]

Samara uses Biotics in her oath to you, they're treating it like magic.

[SSV Enterprise]

She does a weird blue glow, but that's not actually using biotics to affect the oath. Perhaps it's just tradition for justicars to glow when they make oaths.