101 réponses à ce sujet

[kalle90]

SOG TOUGH wrote...

Can't be unique to Asari because Shepherd can learn them, and they aren't magic because they are enhanced by Biotic upgrades, so they are biotic abilities.

But any Shepard can learn any special power. Engineer gets Barrier, Soldier uses Slam etc.

Though I agree with the other guy saying logic being important. ME1 felt more than a game with huge codex, varied planets, seamless loading and more. ME2 feels much more like a simple game that sacrifices much just for "coolness" (if you can call linear levels and such cool)

[The Spamming Troll]

JCHorner wrote...

Reave and Dominate go beyond Biotics because Asari go beyond Biotics. They have abilities they haven't made public to the rest of us.

Also, Samara can't come back, just like Wrex can't - because one of Morinth. Wrex will not be part of Shepards squad again, and neither will Samara.

ofcorse theres more to biotics other then lift and throw! it has nothing to do with asaris. biotics only purpose is to function in the video game. do you really think youd only use 1000 newtons of force to just lift someone off the ground, or do you think youd rather have a skill like biotic-skull-crush, or biotic-rip-your-damn-arm-off ability?

if you think squadmates that "can" be killed in ME2 means they wont be in ME3, then whats the purpose of ME2? the game revolves around recruiting  a squad. if i dont get those surviving memebers of my team, then what the hells the point?

[JCHorner]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

JCHorner wrote...

Reave and Dominate go beyond Biotics because Asari go beyond Biotics. They have abilities they haven't made public to the rest of us.

Also, Samara can't come back, just like Wrex can't - because one of Morinth. Wrex will not be part of Shepards squad again, and neither will Samara.

ofcorse theres more to biotics other then lift and throw! it has nothing to do with asaris. biotics only purpose is to function in the video game. do you really think youd only use 1000 newtons of force to just lift someone off the ground, or do you think youd rather have a skill like biotic-skull-crush, or biotic-rip-your-damn-arm-off ability?

if you think squadmates that "can" be killed in ME2 means they wont be in ME3, then whats the purpose of ME2? the game revolves around recruiting  a squad. if i dont get those surviving memebers of my team, then what the hells the point?

I said Asaris go beyond biotics are part of the lore of Asari.

I'm saying Bioware won't spend the resources to bring back squadmates that are potentially dead.  Like Wrex.  Either he was at Tuchanka or not, the least amount of code they could expend.  They can't budget resources to create story and gameplay for revolving around characters that a sizable portion of gameplayers allowed to die.  I have two play thrus where I my renegades let Morinth kill Samara.

[SSV Enterprise]

While Wrex fighting at my side again in ME3 would be great, it would be much more gratifying to see him leading a united krogan army against the Reapers in a climactic final battle.

[Evil_Weasel]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Actually it is important, at least to those who love Mass Effect for its logic and scientific believeability (once you grant the Eezo its role, everything makes sense, evon though sometimes the effects are exaggerated, but not impossible).
I believe it is save to say that everyone aggrees that those two powers specifically in discussion do not compute with the set universe in terms of lore and/or logic. What we are discussing is the amount of incredibility they pose in regard to the Mass Effect games and universe and in doing so, we show those people in BioWare that actually read the forums that we take coherency and lore- + gameplaywise logic seriously and may convince them to output major "Rule of Cool" issues in favour for more fitting less cool but believeable things.

That is at least the reason why I am doing this over and over again. I hope I have brothers in arms so to speak in that regard.

Thank you Nebulosa, your sentements are exactly why I created this thread.

I can only imagine that there is one composed guy sitting in an office chair trying to tell people that some of the recent ideas dont fit well into the game, but he is drowned out by 4 hopping guys shouting "Awww sweet that is sooooo coool!!!" Lets hope for the ME3 dev team they institute a no hopping no shouting rule so that people can point out lore shredding input from people more obsessed with cool and no concern for correct.

[Evil_Weasel]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

ofcorse theres more to biotics other then lift and throw! it has nothing to do with asaris. biotics only purpose is to function in the video game. do you really think youd only use 1000 newtons of force to just lift someone off the ground, or do you think youd rather have a skill like biotic-skull-crush, or biotic-rip-your-damn-arm-off ability?

if you think squadmates that "can" be killed in ME2 means they wont be in ME3, then whats the purpose of ME2? the game revolves around recruiting  a squad. if i dont get those surviving memebers of my team, then what the hells the point?

First the reason you dont have something like skull crush is becouse that would need two points of pressure, one to apply force and one to hold the head still while said force is applied, or = pressure on both sides. Since Biotics deal with fields this is difficult, if I caught just your arm in the gravitational field, it is likley that your whole body would be caught in the field. This can be infered at all levels, I dont recall hearing any horrer stories about half a ship being mass accelerated tearing it asunder.

Second, the point of ME2 is to take your money and get you hyped for ME3 so you will preorder it without thinking and they can safely with confidence make an utter pile of crap and laugh at you becouse you paid for it......if the EA overlords have their way.

For real, the cost to have voice acting done for each old sqaud member, plus each new sqaud member is something they will probably avoid. Not only will all the extra dialogue take up space on the disc, it would just mean that the amount of time each old and new characters talk will be even more confined to their own self-centric mission.

Oh well, lets hope ME3 is the "learned from our misstakes" game and is a freaking gem that everyone will love.

[SSV Enterprise]

Evil_Weasel wrote...

First the reason you dont have something like skull crush is becouse that would need two points of pressure, one to apply force and one to hold the head still while said force is applied, or = pressure on both sides. Since Biotics deal with fields this is difficult, if I caught just your arm in the gravitational field, it is likley that your whole body would be caught in the field. This can be infered at all levels, I dont recall hearing any horrer stories about half a ship being mass accelerated tearing it asunder.

Then just make smaller fields.  Only stuff in the field would be affected.  Mass effect fields are not the same thing as gravitational fields.

[Christmas Ape]

Addition of magic? Because somehow the Thorian Creepers going berserk at its moment of death from hundreds of light-years away wasn't complete and utter bulls--tonium?

[Valmarn]

Pacifien wrote...

I've always been a big opponent of Reave in the strategy forums simply because I find the power to be overpowered. A large element of that is the leeching aspect for health. It would have been better had they cut that part of the power out of it. Would have left us with a power that's basically Warp+Neural Shock, which I'm sort of fine with.

Yeah, as much as I like Reave, it is a bit overpowered. It should have been little more than a Warp + Neural Shock power, like you said.

Don't get me wrong, Mass Effect 2 is a good game, but it almost seems like the development team is getting a little bit too cocky, like they can do no wrong, no matter what they do.

I just hope they get a good wake-up call before they get too on Mass Effect 3.

[azerSheppard]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Humans, when it comes to biotics, are bumbling savages. The asari have been doin' biotics for generations. It isn't so much that the codec is wrong, as much as the writer of the codec don't have all the information. Once they do, things like what you mentioned will be easier to understand.

quite indeededly:wizard:

Image explaing the quantum physics to a caveman, even we can't comprehend it.

[azerSheppard]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

azerSheppard wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Humans, when it comes to biotics, are bumbling savages. The asari have been doin' biotics for generations. It isn't so much that the codec is wrong, as much as the writer of the codec don't have all the information. Once they do, things like what you mentioned will be easier to understand.

elaborate please:blush:

quite indeededly:wizard:

Image explaing the quantum physics to a caveman, even we can't comprehend it.

We are not arguing that the powers are magical. We are arguing these powers are the gameplay equivalent to gameplay magic. Those are two completely different issues.

[atheelogos]

SSV Enterprise wrote...

While Wrex fighting at my side again in ME3 would be great, it would be much more gratifying to see him leading a united krogan army against the Reapers in a climactic final battle.

my thoughts exactly

[kalle90]

atheelogos wrote...

SSV Enterprise wrote...

While Wrex fighting at my side again in ME3 would be great, it would be much more gratifying to see him leading a united krogan army against the Reapers in a climactic final battle.

my thoughts exactly

Having both options would be even better.

I seriously hope ME3 focuses more on options and less on a single superb storyline.

[Getorex]

Evil_Weasel wrote...

I have played the game several times and 2 things still bother me, these are the powers of Samara and Morinth.

Namely Reave and Dominate. Are these supposed to be biotic abilities, super advanced Asari "mind meld" abilities, or magic?

I like Samara and all, but find Reave and the fact that it can vampiricly drain health really strange.
Now I have been telling myself that Morinth's Dominate is simply the
Asari race's natural ability to link nervous systems, but on crack do to
the enhanced abilities of an Ardat-Yakshi, and not actually a biotic power. Still, I have no idea as to how I can excuse Reave.

I
know some people out there dont feel right putting a biotic power on a
non biotic class, I guess if Dominate isnt a biotic power but an ability
of an Ardat-Yakshi, you cant put it on a non Asari.

BTW, here is the ME1 codex entry for Biotics
were they explain the 3 branchs of biotics, which Reave (except for
giving you health could fall into the spacial distortion) and Dominate
dont fit into well, ...... or at all.

So what do you guys think?
Are Dominate and Reave: biotic, magic, strange mystic Asari powers, just completely out of place? Let me know what you think.

Technically, biotics themselves are magic. Most RPGs include magic. It is not necessary but it is like a tradition (that I wish would go away). It is an unfortunate holdover from Dungeons and Dragons/Wizards and Warrior RPGs.

I suspect that hardcore RPGers would scream like little girls if an RPG came out that didn't include magic and some sort of mage class(es). Hence, biotics. It is not terribly logical to worry about a few "biotic powers" like Reave as being "magic" when ALL biotic powers are magic.

[Getorex]

Evil_Weasel wrote...

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Actually it is important, at least to those who love Mass Effect for its logic and scientific believeability (once you grant the Eezo its role, everything makes sense, evon though sometimes the effects are exaggerated, but not impossible).
I believe it is save to say that everyone aggrees that those two powers specifically in discussion do not compute with the set universe in terms of lore and/or logic. What we are discussing is the amount of incredibility they pose in regard to the Mass Effect games and universe and in doing so, we show those people in BioWare that actually read the forums that we take coherency and lore- + gameplaywise logic seriously and may convince them to output major "Rule of Cool" issues in favour for more fitting less cool but believeable things.

That is at least the reason why I am doing this over and over again. I hope I have brothers in arms so to speak in that regard.

Thank you Nebulosa, your sentements are exactly why I created this thread.

I can only imagine that there is one composed guy sitting in an office chair trying to tell people that some of the recent ideas dont fit well into the game, but he is drowned out by 4 hopping guys shouting "Awww sweet that is sooooo coool!!!" Lets hope for the ME3 dev team they institute a no hopping no shouting rule so that people can point out lore shredding input from people more obsessed with cool and no concern for correct.

Not quite. Dark energy, the excuse for allowing magical biotic powers, is sort of OK to use as an excuse because the TRUE (real world) nature of dark energy is still somewhat mysterious, so you have room to dick with it. However, enough IS known about dark energy, for real, to say that is really doesn't allow all the stuff that is done in the game. It is vacuum energy, it is also quintessance. It acts as an ANTI-gravity. Being vacuum energy, the more the universe expands, the more dark energy there is (due to space expansion). The more dark energy due to expansion, the faster the expansion, etc. I suppose you could wave your arms and argue for powers like warp, and maybe lift but the rest is not even reasonable via speculation. That's about as "scientifically reasonable" as it gets.

[slimgrin]

There is no magic in Mass Effect. Biotics are augmented brain power.

[Getorex]

slimgrin wrote...

There is no magic in Mass Effect. Biotics are augmented brain power.

It IS magic. Calling it "augmented brain power" doesn't change the fact that it is all impossible and is, therefore, precisely the same thing as magic is wizards and warrior games. It is a tradition and treated as a requirement to have magic and various magic-using classes in RPGs.

To make it non-magic would require some changes, some of which would be fairly subtle: no magic biotic powers, just tech. Use tech to manipulate dark energy to cause the effects rather than propose some weird (magical) brain power to control dark energy (brain power controlling vacuum energy/zero point energy? C'mon. "Brain power" is just neurons firing, depolarizing membranes by temporarily dumping calcium and chloride and other ion gradients. There's no "power" there to manipulate the vacuum - to be technical. It's magic by another name. I'd just prefer it not be there at all: something unusual, an RPG without magic in it ANYWHERE, just hard sci-fi).

[slimgrin]

Getorex wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

There is no magic in Mass Effect. Biotics are augmented brain power.

It IS magic. Calling it "augmented brain power" doesn't change the fact that it is all impossible and is, therefore, precisely the same thing as magic is wizards and warrior games. It is a tradition and treated as a requirement to have magic and various magic-using classes in RPGs.

To make it non-magic would require some changes, some of which would be fairly subtle: no magic biotic powers, just tech. Use tech to manipulate dark energy to cause the effects rather than propose some weird (magical) brain power to control dark energy (brain power controlling vacuum energy/zero point energy? C'mon. "Brain power" is just neurons firing, depolarizing membranes by temporarily dumping calcium and chloride and other ion gradients. There's no "power" there to manipulate the vacuum - to be technical. It's magic by another name. I'd just prefer it not be there at all: something unusual, an RPG without magic in it ANYWHERE, just hard sci-fi).

Its not hard sci-fi, not Arthur C. Clark. It's meant to be somewhere between Star wars and Star Trek. Of course they are borrowing from their fantasy roots, but magic is no more real or concrete than paranormal cognition, or speculative fiction. All of it is unproven, unscientific. It's a moot point.

You are asking for the type of lore you see in established Sci-Fi novels. Not going to happen here.

[Quething]

Getorex wrote...
Technically, biotics themselves are magic. Most RPGs include magic. It is not necessary but it is like a tradition (that I wish would go away). It is an unfortunate holdover from Dungeons and Dragons/Wizards and Warrior RPGs.

I suspect that hardcore RPGers would scream like little girls if an RPG came out that didn't include magic and some sort of mage class(es). Hence, biotics. It is not terribly logical to worry about a few "biotic powers" like Reave as being "magic" when ALL biotic powers are magic.

If I live to be a thousand, I will never understand this argument. You see it in comics fandom a lot too, and it doesn't make any more sense there. Like just because Superman can defy physics by flying, it also makes complete, perfect sense that Lois Lane can breathe cyanide for twenty minutes and not be hurt with no explanation.

Yes, biotics is "magic," in the sense that it's not something that's possible in the real world as we understand it. However, bitiocs are internally consistent. They have actual, well-defined rules within the game world. Those rules are very important to verismilitude (which isn't the same concept as straight-up 'realism,' it's actually much more important). They maintain consistency and give the audience an idea of what to expect. We know the sorts of things biotics are capable of, the limits and potential uses of eezo, the same way we know that quarians have a bankrupt immune system. No, eezo isn't real. But hey, neither are quarians, and despite that, it would still be bad, confusing writing if we had a quarian squaddie in ME3 who just waltzed around the ship naked all the time with no explanation whatsoever. Because it would break the established quarian lore. We'd be distracted and thrown out of the story by constantly wondering WTF is going on and how this is possible.

Reave and Dominate are naked quarians.

(That said, apart from the overpowered health drain, the mechanics are reasonable and do add interesting gameplay elements. A tech-based Dominate that worked off some kind of neurotoxin phlebotinum would have been great, and made Dominate engineers that much more appealing.)

Modifié par Quething, 31 octobre 2010 - 04:35 .

[Getorex]

Quething wrote...

Getorex wrote...
Technically, biotics themselves are magic. Most RPGs include magic. It is not necessary but it is like a tradition (that I wish would go away). It is an unfortunate holdover from Dungeons and Dragons/Wizards and Warrior RPGs.

I suspect that hardcore RPGers would scream like little girls if an RPG came out that didn't include magic and some sort of mage class(es). Hence, biotics. It is not terribly logical to worry about a few "biotic powers" like Reave as being "magic" when ALL biotic powers are magic.

If I live to be a thousand, I will never understand this argument. You see it in comics fandom a lot too, and it doesn't make any more sense there. Like just because Superman can defy physics by flying, it also makes complete, perfect sense that Lois Lane can breathe cyanide for twenty minutes and not be hurt with no explanation.

Yes, biotics is "magic," in the sense that it's not something that's possible in the real world as we understand it. However, bitiocs are internally consistent. They have actual, well-defined rules within the game world. Those rules are very important to verismilitude (which isn't the same concept as straight-up 'realism,' it's actually much more important). They maintain consistency and give the audience an idea of what to expect. We know the sorts of things biotics are capable of, the limits and potential uses of eezo, the same way we know that quarians have a bankrupt immune system. No, eezo isn't real. But hey, neither are quarians, and despite that, it would still be bad, confusing writing if we had a quarian squaddie in ME3 who just waltzed around the ship naked all the time with no explanation whatsoever. Because it would break the established quarian lore. We'd be distracted and thrown out of the story by constantly wondering WTF is going on and how this is possible.

Reave and Dominate are naked quarians.

(That said, apart from the overpowered health drain, the mechanics are reasonable and do add interesting gameplay elements. A tech-based Dominate that worked off some kind of neurotoxin phlebotinum would have been great, and made Dominate engineers that much more appealing.)

I have stated that it is internally consistent, just that it IS magic dressed up in scientific-sounding language. That's all really. My PREFERENCE is that such devices not appear in scifi RPGs, that they go hard scifi (at least some of them) and stick to what is actually theoretically possible given known theoretical physics. That's all, a preference. I was mainly addressing the complaint about SOME of the biotic powers being like magic (vs the rest?). It is ALL magic and therefore silly to worry about some subset of the magic.

The other statement I was addressing was the idea that it was possible (and therefore vaguely "scientific"). Not even a little bit. It is standard scifi (as opposed to hard scifi). It is a standard RPG with magic.

[curly haired boy]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Addition of magic? Because somehow the Thorian Creepers going berserk at its moment of death from hundreds of light-years away wasn't complete and utter bulls--tonium?

now that's some freaky action at a distance

also a certain quantum entanglement communication system aboard a certain spaceship

[atheelogos]

"Are Dominate and Reave: biotic, magic, strange mystic Asari powers, just completely out of place? Let me know what you think." Like turian/human sex its completely out of place. Just do what I do and ignore them and don't treat them as canon.

[atheelogos]

yorkj86 wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

"Are Dominate and Reave: biotic, magic, strange mystic Asari powers, just completely out of place? Let me know what you think." Like turian/human sex its completely out of place. Just do what I do and ignore them and don't treat them as canon.

Seems arbitrary, on your part.  Do you ignore all biotics?  That's a lot to ignore, in the ME setting.  Instead, you might consider that the ME setting just isn't for your taste in science-fiction.

ME is my type of science fiction, but I will give my opinion when the devs do something stupid. Biotics deals with mass. Reave and Dominate have nothing to do with the mass of particles and because of that they don't make sense within the ME Canon.

ME works best when they base their tech on real science or at least try and make it look like its based on real science. Make it good enough to where people can suspend their disbelief. Thats all I'm asking.