230 réponses à ce sujet

[Xairyn]

hello  guys    I have been wondering and dont remember seeing anything on a cep for nwn2 at all but then again it has been awhile since I was last in the forums.
I guess I was thinking there was a CEP for nwn1 . Why dont you make a cep for NWN2  and include all the fixes  and creatures etc.. via 1 or 2 big updates / downloads etc.. ?  Or was there already one before ?

[Xairyn]

seems like since not much hs been coming from bioware atari or Obsidian seems like the community could come together again for nwn2 like they did with nwn1

[Xairyn]

Oh yeah and cant forget new tilesets too

[MachinSin]

Hi Xairyn,

Unlike NWN1, with the AutoDownloader feature there is no need for CEP; the haks used in every server download directly from them and they can use the same ones to avoid duplicates in players disks.

In NWN2 you can choose what you want to have in your server, not be forced to have all the same things, probably avoid to look all similar also and be in control of what resources you load in your server,

MachinSin

[dunniteowl]

Before NWN2 was released, I championed an attempt to come up with standards, practices, guidelines and content rules that would "streamline" the issues for players and content creators as much as possible. At that time, we were pretty sure, but not completely sure, what we were up against and what the primary issues were going to be.

Since release, the concept of an NWN2 CEP became more and more UN-appealing due to the nature of the way assets can be managed in NWN2 versus NWN. Two of the biggest reasons are: A) CEP issues in terms of overall size, the model sizes and such for NWN2 are ginormous compared to NWN and so a CEP package would HAVE to be split into smaller chunks for manageability -- which sort of defeats the purpose in the first place. Management of assets in NWN2 is actually easier to do than it is in NWN, in terms of picking and choosing your assets to use and how to override them.

What we ended up settling on was a .2da Reservation System setup in a wiki: Reserved 2da ranges. We also have tried to convince folks that make custom content that certain standards and practices were preferable for uniformity and ease of use for the intended audience, such as making sure that all models are tintable (this is hampered somewhat by a lot of good models coming out from "New" community modelers who are 'learning' how to get better at modeling while providing some very nice content -- what do you tell someone that didn't make a model tintable when you have a shortage of good content and a small covy of modelers? You say, "Thanks!") that have a relatively common scale, not too many polys, but not so few as to make them stand out as lesser in quality appearance, that sort of thing.

We all knew this was going to be a tough thing to do and maintain, because it relies completely on the will of the Community members making content. Whether it's building placeables, clothings, items, character heads, hairs, new creatures, etc. we'd all like to see more and we'd all like to see a level of consistency, cooperation and compliance with proposed standards. So we hammered out some ideas and some concepts, including even having someone start and maintain an NWN2 CEP.

The CEP just proved too difficult -- and in the end, unnecessary.

The .2da Reservation System is really the Keystone to Custom Content. No matter what kind of model you make, no matter what sort of New class, Feat, Skill or scripted system you make, there's going to be some .2da somewhere (just about) that you're going to have to call on, modify or update. For that reason, the efforts in NWN2 are more about making sure folks can create content and create new things without stepping on each others' toes. That's what the .2da Reservation System is for.

And it works -- if you use it.

The next step is to get folks who use content to sort of come together and start using the content as provided on the Vault when possible in a way that doesn't require repackaging into a new HAK for each new PW or SP module. (Yes, if properly done, SP modules can make use of the autodownloader as well to download automatically the required assets and haks for playing that module.)

Imagine it. You download a module and, if you already have the creatures, placeables, items or whatever in your systerm, ready to be used, the autodownloader 'sees' this and your overall download time is shorter, because it knows you don't need to download those assets. PW, SP, once properly set up, it won't matter.

This definitely has more appeal and utility to PW players than anyone else. Still, picture how it could be. Not a CEP, but just compliance with how to manage assets so that the Autodownloader will examine the files you don't have versus the ones you should have for a module and let it direct you and then grab the necessary files.

This will require a 'sea change' of methods for some, though, again, if only PW operators and builders adopted this, it would make a real difference not only to an established player base, but it would lower the bar to folks just getting into the idea of playing PWs. If they want to hop from PW to PW, they could, without having to redownload repackaged models and assets that may already be sitting right there on their harddrive.

Anything that makes it easier on players to get playing is a desireable objective.

IN NWN2, CEP is not part of that potential. It actually makes things harder to do for players on the whole.

dunniteowl

[Olblach]

The problem with haks is that if they evolve you need to evolve with them. Unless they maintain a version number in their name but most don't.

So if someone uses somecoolmod.hak made in 2007 then another somecooldmod.hak made in 2010 and the 2 versions differ, players will autodownload one version then the other when they switch between the two PWs.

Maintaining a hak suite with a version number in the hak name could be interesting. Name it CEP or not it would save downloading time for everybody.

For example I renamed heed_pctools.hak to eptorath_heed_pctools.hak to avoid clashing with other PWs having a different one with same name.

Now if someone comes and tells me we have CEP_v100_heed_pctools.hak then I can comply to it if i know that if it gets improved it will become CEP_v101_heed_pctools.hak

So every Single and Multiplayer module that uses heed_pctools v100 will use CEP_v100_heed_pctools.hak, and players will have to download it just one time. Those who use v101 will use the other hak and then players will have to download a secondfile instead of downloading it again and again and again each time they switch from a v100 PW to a v101 PW  and the reverse.

It's a win/win for everybody I think...

Modifié par Olblach, 19 octobre 2010 - 05:06 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

The PW's involved would just all update at the same time. Trust me we do talk to each other, it's already partially in place and adding version numbers is not going to help things as a hak evolves. I frankly avoided the CEP project since it just could not handle partial use of the system, and those involved had a goal of getting "everything" on the vault working together in one system, instead of just what is needed for a given module.

The haks should not be getting changes unless they are in development/testing mode. ( Generally i do it to cutting edge things in a smaller hak since i will be updating it on a daily basis, and eventually I decree a given hak is not going to get any more changes and move new things to a new hak. ) If there is a new set of content it would be provided as a new hak, having a lot of haks is only an issue for the guy adding them to his module properties which can take a while, and by making many smaller haks it allows that person to select just which portions they actually need to use.

As PW's we do know how to manage it, however there are many PW's who prefer to keep things their old way, with all haks using said PW's name and everything being put into a single hak. The major issue is this is entirely for the players, it adds work for the PW admin ( in converting to a new system ) and if the PW makes the assumption a player will only play on their PW (which they do assume) then the entire argument can be ignored. To a degree this is good since it allows each PW to be different which is why i am pushing to allow partial adoption. We also need a way to let players "autodownload" things needed for a SP module, an application which scans the module and downloads what is needed.

They do make managing things easier for new Admins, which is driving adoption, but we need to all get on the same sheet of music for the sake of the community. Only via players demanding a PW adopt the standard haks and work together will this happen. Until then those who want this to happen will continue to work together on getting standard haks that do what us admins need as well as make things easier on the players.

The other issue is CEP might seem great to some, i personally found that the servers in NWN1 who moved to it ended up having a lot of issues, and a lot of the content you had to download was never used. What we are doing needs no "CEP" branding, it lets the PW's do their own thing, while also letting the players reduce the total download requirement. We just don't want a "everything at once" hak but we do want everything to actually work together.

If you see "adl_" as the prefix for your hak, you know it's something designed for the autodownloader for multiple PW's, perhaps this ADL will become the new CEP.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 19 octobre 2010 - 05:37 .

[Hellfire_RWS]

Please no CEP. THe ADL solves the issues if people will use, it and stop renaming haks to brand them with their name or PW.



CEP is hte old way of doing things, we dont need a seperate team trying to figure out what to add and keeping it up to date. The creators can do that just fine by themselves.

[Olblach]

We need to rename haks because there are different versions running under the same name....

If they had a version number in first place that would not be needed but they dont for 99% of them.

Modifié par Olblach, 19 octobre 2010 - 05:53 .

[kamalpoe]

ADL works wonders. You can think of the collection of all ADL_ content as CEP if you want to (except t's not), but compartmentalized so you only download what you're going to actually use.

[Olblach]

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

The PW's involved would just all update at the same time. Trust me we do talk to each other

No you don't. I was mentioning heed_pctools on purpose. Every PW has a different version of it and they all have the same name.

Besides, it's common sense that if a hak changes and doesn't get renamed then some PW will update and some will not...hence the repeated downloads.

Modifié par Olblach, 19 octobre 2010 - 06:10 .

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

As a single-player modder, I tend to avoid using much custom content because I 1) want to keep the download and installation process simple, and 2) its difficult to sort through all the bits and pieces on the vault and find high-quality stuff that will work together easily.



I use Escimator's handaxes, because I absolutely needed a tomahawk, but I decided against using all of his other weapon kits because it was just too complicated. If we had a standard compilation of weapons (or maybe just realistic-looking weapons) I could have just used that.

Likewise for clothes and armor. The OC clothes are good enough for what I'm doing, but if I could painlessly add in a standard clothes pack, and know that my players would have no problem installing it, then I would without a second thought.



Another consideration is that as the community matures, we're seeing a bit of a revolving door effect with our custom content creators. People show up, spend a couple of years playing around with models, and then wander off, abandoning their creations. If they could be incorporated into an on-going CEP project, then the creations would remain useful long after the creators have vanished.



So, for me, the CEP would be less about streamlining the download process or standardizing it, but rather simplifying and idiot-proofing it. It wouldn't be the whole vault-in-a-box, but rather just a limited set of must-have odds and ends.

[Shallina]

CEP isn't a good option beceause poeple even change themself the custom content for it to fit better their need.



Those 2da reservation is a good system. with it we are sure content won't overlap, and so we can use all what we want without worry.

[Banshe]

I agree with Olblach but it wasn't the best idea to make this point in a NWN2 CEP thread.



If everyone is using the latest version of every hak, there is no problem with having the version number in the hak name. But if people are not using the latest version, there is a problem.



On the other hand, I don't understand why people would have a different hak for heed's tools than another person. A PW should not modify an author's hak but instead should make their own hak to with their modifications in it (higher in the list).



So this would only be an issue if the hak's original author created multiple version of the same hak. In this case, a version number would be good.

[Banshe]

Lugaid of the Red Stripes wrote...

As a single-player modder, I tend to avoid using much custom content because I 1) want to keep the download and installation process simple, and 2) its difficult to sort through all the bits and pieces on the vault and find high-quality stuff that will work together easily.

I use Escimator's handaxes, because I absolutely needed a tomahawk, but I decided against using all of his other weapon kits because it was just too complicated. If we had a standard compilation of weapons (or maybe just realistic-looking weapons) I could have just used that.
Likewise for clothes and armor. The OC clothes are good enough for what I'm doing, but if I could painlessly add in a standard clothes pack, and know that my players would have no problem installing it, then I would without a second thought.

Another consideration is that as the community matures, we're seeing a bit of a revolving door effect with our custom content creators. People show up, spend a couple of years playing around with models, and then wander off, abandoning their creations. If they could be incorporated into an on-going CEP project, then the creations would remain useful long after the creators have vanished.

So, for me, the CEP would be less about streamlining the download process or standardizing it, but rather simplifying and idiot-proofing it. It wouldn't be the whole vault-in-a-box, but rather just a limited set of must-have odds and ends.

I have to say that pain did this quite effectively with his monster pack.

[painofdungeoneternal]

Olblach wrote...

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

The PW's involved would just all update at the same time. Trust me we do talk to each other

No you don't. I was mentioning heed_pctools on purpose. Every PW has a different version of it and they all have the same name.

Besides, it's common sense that if a hak changes and doesn't get renamed then some PW will update and some will not...hence the repeated downloads.

The reason there are different versions are that each PW is fixing it in it's own way, because as is, it has issues. This is not an issue with versioning but rather with each PW needing to do their own thing. What you are seeing is not versions done by Heed, but customization for a particular PW and everyone using the same hak name.

As it is, i don't think UI modifications, 2da's or other things which are very small and which each PW does different need to be part of a ADL system, they should go into a UI and 2da hak for that PW. What we are talking about is for the models which eat up gigs of hard drive space, which are always the same across PW's, those things need to be standardized without any files which need to be updated each time a new patch comes out ( like the 2da files ). 

The desire for a CEP is often due to module makers not wanting to deal with managing the content, but such a system limits the ability of those who know a lot about customizing content being able to customize their worlds to the same degree. The focus i have is not on eliminating the need for authors doing content management, that is something that adds value, the need is to do so in a manner that limits the amount of redundant megs the players have to download created by the fact that content for NWN2 takes up a lot more room.


( my monster pack has gear/clothing in it, it's an abridged version based on a lot of the vault content with a desire to minimize file size, while still providing required things to make the monsters work, things like allowing the succubus to carry a pitchfork and look somewhat sexy while still not having any fully nude content. )

[Olblach]

Banshe wrote...

I agree with Olblach but it wasn't the best idea to make this point in a NWN2 CEP thread.
 

Yes, if hak authors were naming their haks with a version number then we wouldn't need someone else to do it...

To be honest that was not an issue before the ADL, since updates were compatible, and keeping the same file name on the vault makes the entry keep it downloads count.

heed_pctools is used by almost every PW and and comes in many different versions, either from the author who updated it, or special versions... Some has been renamed, some not. 

Modifié par Olblach, 19 octobre 2010 - 07:13 .

[dunniteowl]

I think what you're referring to, Olblach is a apples to oranges issue. The CEP would never include something like a set of tools in the first place. The whole concept of the CEP was to include custom content in the form of model placeables, doors, tiles, creatures, items, weapons, etc. Nothing in the CEP was ever intended to set up for UI, GUIs, listboxes, scripts or scripted systems or useability tools of any sort.

Versioning is fine, if you can get folks to adopt it, but you're going to be very disappointed I think. If you read my first post in here, you'll not I mention that one of the issues to overcome is the simple fact that ANY form of compliance to a guideline, standard, practice or convention is solely based upon Community good will.

The CEP never made it easier (in NWN) for builders and admins, It wasn't designed to do that. In fact, while it made getting a crapload of model content available in a single large download, the PW Admins and Builders still had to massage .2da's, setup files and manage the content so their PWs had the assets in it that they wanted and not the other stuff that came with the download. This was an initial and long lasting complaint of the CEP in that there were a lot of people who could only get some of the stuff from CEP and nowhere else, but it came at the price of having to download the entire beast to pick a tooth, nail or scale out of the mix.

Even so, it was, on the whole better for the player base as they had less confusion if their PW(s) of choice listed CEP as a requirement.

Today, with NWN2, this is just not practical. The entire CEP was like, what, 450MB of models and data? A similar amount of models in NWN2 would exceed 12GB. Do you really want everyone to download that, or more, so we can all play nice? It just doesn't make sense to have it be that way; and you're going to get a lot of resistance to the idea, not only from Players, but from Builders and Admins as well. Again, you'd be essentially forcing folks to download this incredibly large set of files when maybe they really only wish to use 1/10th of all that.

As to versioning, pain has it correct. Versioning isn't something that should be ongoing for any length of time. You submit some content and you should find out right away if it's got problems and then you fix it. You update and correct and BAM! end of story -- at least that's the general track. If versioning is an issue (which I don't see it in this case) then it should be something listed as "In Development" and not being used for 'general consumption' by the player bases of PWs or SP enthusiasts.

Again, one of the issues is exactly what you mention: Heed's PC Tools. It gets taken in and adopted for each specific PW by the builders/scripters of those PWs. Honestly, they should either rename it completely (leaving Heed's title off it entirely and then just give the lad some credit somewhere's else) or not mess with it. Again though, you're looking at folks who are taking something and modifying it to fit their specific needs. This is not a versioning issue. It's an issue of proper naming and best practices (which, truth be told, is a spotty thing at best as different folks have different ideas about what those 'best practices' are based on how they were taught to code.)

In NWN2, the Autodownloader is the way to go. Trust us, we have looked at this seven ways from Sunday. It's been argued, bandied, tossed about and discussed in just about every imaginable permutation and the facts of the matter are that the Autodownloader is superior to any other method of content distribution if folks will work together and use it the way it was meant to be used.

It:
A) Reduces overall downloads required by the player if they already have the content.
Allows the author of the content to maintain creative control (for the most part) of their Vault submissions.
C) It automatically determines whether or not you have it and then goes and gets it for you (which reduces player confusion, player hassle and player frustration -- all of these are Good Things™ for any PW or SP author.)

No matter what other system you can discuss or propose, nothing so far that we have discussed has been determined to be any where nearly as useful, productive and simple on the whole as the Autodownloader. The reason is that Grinning Fool designed it based on a lot of PW and builder input and he knows his stuff. Which is why Obsidian hired him to add that code specifically to patch 1.23.

Now all that said, if you want to attempt a CEP project, by all means, go ahead. It's clear that there are plenty of voices who still think it's the way to go. It's a definite fork in the road. Just bear in mind, there are a lot of valid criticisms about NWN2 not being just an upgraded NWN and in this case, it's true -- and it's a good thing, IMNSHO. The old way is clunky.

best regards,
dunniteowl

Modifié par dunniteowl, 19 octobre 2010 - 09:33 .

[NWN DM]

It's great fun to download the 500+ mb of RWS content five different times for each separate PW I try out. mypw1-rws, my-pw2-rws, mypw3-rws, etc... all with exactly the same content.

If people just followed what is being advocated here, they'd have more players because people wouldn't balk at yet another 3 gig download to try out a server (when they already essentially have 60% of that data on their system). 

Too bad we don't have a way to determine as server admins how many people have connected and dropped before the ADL finished streaming everything... that would be a nice barometer to see if your download size is a deterrent to new players coming in.

Everyone who wants to use (for example) the RWS stuff, just use it like that.  Download off NWVault and add the files in - no fuss no changes.

You don't need to go and add "mypwname" to all the files and force people to download it again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again (get the picture?). 

I went through my hak folder one time and deleted over 8 gigs of duplicate haks where the only difference was that some brain surgeon changed the name to include their PW.  Over 8 gigs... and I'm by no means a huge frequenter of PWs.

Modifié par NWN DM, 19 octobre 2010 - 11:01 .

[Axe_Edge]

Remotely related.

I remember listening to the NWN Podcast (Ooooh, so long ago) when Jay (Nivenka Niroda) was talking about working with someone on a "bit tracker" (can't remember what he called it). A program that would inspect NWN files, determine what parts within an individual file had been changed/updated, then, it would only download the changed part of the file. It didn't need to download the entire file. The program would only update the file at bit level. Was that ever completed?

Maybe something like this can be used to inspect files, determine if there were changes within the file (other than the name of the file).  PW admins could see if they did do changes to the file, then, revert the files name back.

Modifié par Axe_Edge, 20 octobre 2010 - 12:04 .

[The Fred]

I'm not going to say the CEP wasn't a good initiative, but it's an outdated approach, at least in NWN2 terms. It was just too big and clunky - as mentioned, it was hard just to use part of it. Updating was a massive pain, too. 2da reservations and master 2das etc are a lot better, but even so, I personally envisage a future where these are unnecessary - I started a thread a while back about a program which would be able to merge stuff for you automatically, making it easy to install various mods, and I made a demo too (which works as a "proof-of-concept", but due to lack of both time and programming skill, I haven't gone much further with it recently).



It just seems like there are so many better alternatives now to having a huge, ungainly mega-download.

[Olblach]

NWN DM wrote...
It's great fun to download the 500+ mb of RWS content five different times for each separate PW I try out. mypw1-rws, my-pw2-rws, mypw3-rws, etc... all with exactly the same content.

If you are 100% sure it is the same then cancel and copy rws to mypw1-rws, I notify my players about this in the news.
And I wont remove the renaming unless i get the guarantee that one name = one version.

If there is even a minor difference between mypw1 and mypw2 rws and they are both named rws then the players will download rws when they come to pw1 then rws when they go to pw2 then rws again when they go back to pw1 and you know what when they return to pw2 another time.

Modifié par Olblach, 20 octobre 2010 - 05:30 .

[Hellfire_RWS]

If there is a variation in any RWS hak, it is usually the doing of the PW itself. From my exp working with many PWs this is the main the problem, either through renaming or hak combining.

[Banshe]

That is (kind of) where the weakness in this system lies. Every PW owner, every Custom content maker and every module maker must "agree to" AND "follow" the same set of rules. With the 2da reservation system, some custom content makers don't know of it or don't use it, some (i.e. Nytir) reserve lines and then don't use those reserved lines.



I think that things like Pain's monster pack are a good way to go. It doesn't seem to offend CC makers (quite the contrary) and it fixes everything in it to work nicely together.

[kamalpoe]

Olblach wrote...
If you are 100% sure it is the same then cancel and copy rws to mypw1-rws, I notify my players about this in the news.
And I wont remove the renaming unless i get the guarantee that one name = one version.

The more work a player has to do to play on your pw, the less likely they will play. As a player, it's not their job to make your life easier for you, it's the other way around.