230 réponses à ce sujet

[Olblach]

What is more frustrating for a player? Copying a file or downloading the same one (with minor variations) again and again and again?

Modifié par Olblach, 20 octobre 2010 - 12:56 .

[Banshe]

Olblach wrote...

What is more frustrating for a player? Copying a file or downloading the same one (with minor variations) again and again and again?

I do agree with you. But the question and answer should ultimately say that: the "player should have to do nothing at all but connect". Before the ADL, the fact that players had to do anything at all was the downfall of Multiplayer. 

So it is not about more or less frustrating, it is more about whether it is frustrating at all.  

[Shallina]

What is more frustrating for a player?

Not beeing able to play on their favorite PW/game. With ADSL, downloading hak is no longer a problem. With the 2da system and personalised hak PW we got PW working fine with possibility for the creator to put a personal touch in the custom content (use of custom texture for exemple)

Don't expect to be able to have something new without new data.

You'll always have to download new content

Modifié par Shallina, 20 octobre 2010 - 01:53 .

[dunniteowl]

Firstly, no-one should honestly be modifying the base files for any Hakpak or asset files. They make a blueprint copy and modify that. Then, when the player gets the necessary files (the originals) they automatically get updated when they enter a module area. This is true whether you're entering a new area in an SP module or a new area in a PW module. The exact blueprint changes are stored in the areas and in the Campaign folder. The models themselves, as downloaded originally should never be being messed with, thus no need to actually rename them.

If there's a different 'version' out there, it is due to the whole PW renaming convention left over from NWN. This is the central issue and point. It's not a question of different versions, it's an issue of learning how to do things more efficiently and more comfortably.

Think about it for a moment. If you require a player to do more than get required downloaded data that is new, then you're making the player less likely to want to endure the time it takes to get going. I don't care if they have to download data repeatedly or go into their own folders and files to figure out which files to dump and which to merge, rename or move to another folder (which might not be apparent to many players who are not file/folder savvy and maybe don't really know what to look for.)

Any extra effort you make them do is a barrier to entry in the PW. Period. The more barriers you place there, either out of ignorance of more efficient methods, lack of desire to put out the effort on your part, or simply because that's the way you've always done it before in NWN, then you're making life harder for the people you are purportedly enticing to have a good time playing on your PW. (And that is a generic, plural, "you" I am not singling any person out.)

So, while it may be a throwback to another era, your PW players or SP players are your 'customers' and if you live by the golden rule, then the Customer is Always Right. This means that service and quality are key points. There is never going to be a simple method to get all your files straightened out as befits Admins and Builders. Well, maybe never is too strong a word. However, irrespective of whether you use the Autodownloader or attempt a CEP or simply just keep grabbing redundant data in haks, your PW has to make the effort to reduce the frustration and barriers to entry and play as much as possible if you are to thrive and survive.

If someone develops a merging tool or a bit-level checker, the names are still going to have to be the same unless you can also get them to compare files of different names as well. Even so, that, along with stuff like Heed's PC Tools, or SlimGui or what have you, are not going to be the kinds of things that you will ever (or at least you shouldn't) place into something like a CEP package.

Those sorts of things are meant to be tweaked and massaged by each PW to suit their individual tastes, needs and atmosphere, and, as such, will always reside in a Unique to that PW hak file. Those are just the practical realities of the situation.

The real issue and the real point is that, if folks, by convention, learn to accept and adopt the Autodownloader and use it as it was meant to and exploit its great, as yet untapped, potential, CEP would not only not be necessary, it would be counterproductive. IN fact, a lot of the old PW habits from NWN do not actually serve the PWs using them. Either they don't believe it or they don't know, but the fact is that using files as provided by the Vault, and pointing the user base to them via the autodownloader has the serious potential to make things easier not only for the players, but ultimately for the Module Builders as well. Why in god's name would you pack all that extra crap into your module downloads if you didn't have to? Why, indeed.

The ultimate result is that folks using the ADL will have fewer overall downloads to go through at some point in time, because the ADL checks to see if they have it already. If they already have it, then the files are not downloaded again, saving time, frustration and bandwidth. And if they get it from the Vault, then your storage site doesn't have to have it in there, because all you did, instead of packing it all up into a specific hak, was point your ADL to the right files in an already common and reliable place.

Looked at it from that light, which is easier? Making a specific a particular hak with all the stuff you downloaded from the Vault for each of your PW players, or create a set of lines in the ADL commands to point people in the right place to get them? Which is better for the player? Download all these files again and again and again, or to have the ADL simply tell them, those files are already there and you're good to go after this unique hak for the PW?

You're still going to have to manage SOMETHING, but, in the end, it's actually easier and simpler to adopt the ADL than it is to continue to try to run NWN2 in NWN fashion.

Again, this is just my considered opinion, I don't have a boat load of facts to prove my position. However, everyone that I have heard tell who has adopted the ADL and gotten over the learning curve, praises it highly. I think that's probably the best recommendation I could expect to recieve in this environment.

dunniteowl

Modifié par dunniteowl, 20 octobre 2010 - 03:26 .

[NWN DM]

Olblach wrote...

If you are 100% sure it is the same then cancel and copy rws to mypw1-rws, I notify my players about this in the news.
And I wont remove the renaming unless i get the guarantee that one name = one version.

If there is even a minor difference between mypw1 and mypw2 rws and they are both named rws then the players will download rws when they come to pw1 then rws when they go to pw2 then rws again when they go back to pw1 and you know what when they return to pw2 another time.

So I need to take up a gig of my HD because at least one PW couldn't stand just using the hak provided by the CC creator(s)?

What about someone who has restrictions on the amount of data they download each month?

To say nothing of the time required.

Renaming files is an outdated approach.  As a player, all anyone should have to do IMO is launch NWN2, find the server and connect.  Any extra hoops that need to be jumped through make it less likely a new person will connect.

I've done it myself many times... want to try a new PW, connect and see a 2 GB download.  As soon as I see a common hak renamed to refer to the PW, I know I'm looking at a large portion of said download that is unnecessary and odds are I quit right there because it's a very bad initial impression. 

You didn't even get the chance to make a good one with a beautiful set of areas, or high quality conversations, or the best DM team in the universe.  All the rest of your effort didn't even get the chance to shine.

I for one think that's a shame.

Modifié par NWN DM, 20 octobre 2010 - 04:42 .

[Olblach]

I think you miss the point that the ADL doesn't understand that an updated hak can be compatible with the old hak. Should you add one single item to a hak then for ADL it is different and needs to be downloaded again. It's a good feature but it has the effect that 2 haks with same name cannot be differents or else....



Say I use some.hak on my PW and the author update it then my PW and all others PW using it have to update it at the same time or else you will get the issues I already mentioned. Between the updated ones and the old ones the player will have to redownload every time.



With the renaming approach if I have failed to update in time then the worse that will happen to you is to download one the hak more time for each PW and not everytime you switch.



I'm a scripter so I don't make beautiful areas (well better now but I cheated with YATT ), nor good conversations and don't have a good DM team (with a good DM team you just need 1 area with a chair and a table and let them do the show anyway :)..



However you would be surprised, many players download all the haks, it takes them 15-30 minutes then they don't stay more than 1 minute in world. Obviously they are more interested by the files than the PW itself. I know my PW is really unfinished but 1 minute is not enough to see what's in it, and you'd thought that if they invested 30 minutes downloading they would check more than a couple areas



But I'm an explorer at heart not everyone feels the same I know.

[kamalpoe]

dunniteowl wrote...
Any extra effort you make them do is a barrier to entry in the PW. Period.

This. Any PW that suggests to players they cancel out of the download and go rename haks is telling the player that they don't particularly care for new players. Players can go play on another PW that doesn't require this and the PW team will wonder why their PW is empty.

ADL_ haks are out there for so much content. They make connecting and trying out PW's a breeze. Want "CEP"? Use and play ADL_ servers. Converting to use ADL might be some work for the PW admin team, but that's not the player's problem.

[kamalpoe]

Olblach wrote...

I think you miss the point that the ADL doesn't understand that an updated hak can be compatible with the old hak. Should you add one single item to a hak then for ADL it is different and needs to be downloaded again.

You've updated for example RWS_tilesets, or RWS_monsters? Well then use the base ADL_compliant RWS_tilesets and add an RWS_tilesets_supplementary. As it stands now, virtually all popular vault content is now packaged in ADL_ format already: all the monsters, all the RWS tilesets... already ADL_ compliant. The only thing remaining is for a PW to use it.

[Olblach]

kamalpoe wrote...

Olblach wrote...

I think you miss the point that the ADL doesn't understand that an updated hak can be compatible with the old hak. Should you add one single item to a hak then for ADL it is different and needs to be downloaded again.

You've updated for example RWS_tilesets, or RWS_monsters? Well then use the base ADL_compliant RWS_tilesets and add an RWS_tilesets_supplementary. As it stands now, virtually all popular vault content is now packaged in ADL_ format already: all the monsters, all the RWS tilesets... already ADL_ compliant. The only thing remaining is for a PW to use it.

I'm not using any RWS hak on my PW, I'm using the social community suite and  I know for a fact that different versions exist over different PWs, hence i had to rename them to prevent the infinite downloading issue and I adivsed the players that copying files could speed up the autodownload process. If that is not being considerate of new players, then what is considerate? Letting them enter the infinite download circle? No thanks.

Now what you are describing was what I suggested in first page, I just mentioned CEP_ (=bad) nstead of ADL_(=good) but it's the same idea. Give me a hak like that and I won't rename it, if I didn't mention at least 3 times in this thread already then I didn't mention it at all

Modifié par Olblach, 20 octobre 2010 - 05:36 .

[kamalpoe]

Olblach wrote...

kamalpoe wrote...

Olblach wrote...

I think you miss the point that the ADL doesn't understand that an updated hak can be compatible with the old hak. Should you add one single item to a hak then for ADL it is different and needs to be downloaded again.

You've updated for example RWS_tilesets, or RWS_monsters? Well then use the base ADL_compliant RWS_tilesets and add an RWS_tilesets_supplementary. As it stands now, virtually all popular vault content is now packaged in ADL_ format already: all the monsters, all the RWS tilesets... already ADL_ compliant. The only thing remaining is for a PW to use it.

I'm not using any RWS hak on my PW, I'm using the social community suite

It doesn't matter what hak, the point remains that if you are using a superset then you could be using the standard hak and a supplement hak to make things easy on players. If a PW is using a subset of something where the entire thing is player accessible by default, then the PW should rename. The player should not have to do anything, and should have to do as little redownloading as possible.

[painofdungeoneternal]

Sounds like you need to communicate more with the other PW's involved. That is what is going to solve this problem more than anything else. Your way of fixing the issue actually makes the problem much worse. I know Barbafuz and Kemo always were active in the social arena so it might be a good idea to get with them and form a commitee to remove these issues.



( That is an awful large set of files to rename just for your PW if it's the set i am thinking of which is basically a CEP for social servers, i know you want a CEP but that really illustrates how something designed to be inclusive and the issues it will run into, all of this is easily sidestepped via moving beyond ideas developed in the original NWN )



The real answer is not a CEP, it's communication and lots of it.

[Olblach]

I do not control the hak creator and the other pws so if the creator decide to update their haks and the other pws decide to still use the old version my only viable solution is to rename to protect my players (from you know what).

@pain: they all have their own renaming scheme, but some PWs out of social don't. and use outdated versions. I'd rather not name them don't like pointing at people in public.

And no I don't want a CEP I want the guarantee that if I get a hak it wont be modified without being renamed. Instead of naming my haks eptorath_xxx.hak I would be ok to use ADL_xxx.hak, as long as they get renamed (or get an additional hak) when changed.

Modifié par Olblach, 20 octobre 2010 - 05:43 .

[dunniteowl]

Okay you're right.

You completely don't understand how the ADL works or why it's in your best interest to use it. You also don't understand the difference between modified versions and versions of the same thing. I explained earlier, there is no reason to modify the existing base models and haks. None.

All the modifications should be done on a copied blueprint instance of the original and those are stored in your areas, module and campaign folders. Period.

This 'different version' thing you keep mentioning is a ghost issue. In fact, it's this very thing that you're referring to that causes the problems in the first place.

It's been explained several times and you still ignore the information so I give up. You're right. Go make a CEP. Be happy. I am sure you're not alone in your point of view and I wish you well in your endeavors.

My point of view is, though, that until you get your facts straight about versions and updates, you won't hear what's being said anyway. The ADL is the SINGLE best thing for PW play since imlpementing PW ability from MP components. If you wish to remain in the past, then there's no stopping you. After all, the issue of compliance puts a point on this: It is entirely up to the Community to accept, adopt or abandon any standard, practice or technology that serves to make their life easier. If the choice is, "No," then there's no stopping that. Enjoy.



dunniteowl

[Olblach]

I'm not asking for CEP i'm asking for a consistent naming of haks.

[Olblach]

OK let me explain.

You make some.hak
Then no you don't name it like this you made it today you name it  20101020some.hak

or whatever name you like.
Then you update it tomorrow it will be 20101021some.hak
Then I don't need to rename it (unless i modified it) because I know for a fact versions won't clash.

Only the hak creator can name them consistently because you never know when they are updated.

Where is CEP in this?

Modifié par Olblach, 20 octobre 2010 - 05:52 .

[kamalpoe]

Olblach wrote...
I'm not asking for CEP i'm asking for a consistent naming of haks.

Consistent naming of haks is exactly what the ADL_ naming convention stuff is about.

You need to talk with the other PW's that use your haks to get an ADL_social base and then you can put your PW's unique stuff in a supplementary hak. This is the best way of doing it from a players perspetive, no renaming of haks by players, no multi-downloading.

[Olblach]

It's the hak authors job to do that or there will always be an issue. Now yes I can always change mypw_ to ADL_ and synchronize with others pw i wouldn't mind doing that. 

I still see issues with this but would be minor I admit. To get no issues at all you need to involve the hak creator.

Modifié par Olblach, 20 octobre 2010 - 05:59 .

[Shallina]

Whan you want something done, do it yourself or hear about it for decades.

[Olblach]

Hence i renamed the haks

[Hellfire_RWS]

No matter what tools you give people to make things easier, some will just do it their way,  I know of several PWs that use vault standard haks and the ADL and they are fine.

Modifié par Hellfire_RWS, 20 octobre 2010 - 06:29 .

[Olblach]

Blame me if you want, it's the only way I can play other PWs without having to download again.

However this thread is turning into a flaming fest and ceased to interest me. I wish you good autodownloading to everyone and am taking my leave.

Modifié par Olblach, 20 octobre 2010 - 06:37 .

[Xairyn]

couldn't someone gather all files and make a mock pw server within the nwn2 multiplayer server in gamespy and just use it for ADL purposes ? name it CEP ADL updater or something then all servers and players can download it and use it if they like ?

[kamalpoe]

Xairyn wrote...

couldn't someone gather all files and make a mock pw server within the nwn2 multiplayer server in gamespy and just use it for ADL purposes ? name it CEP ADL updater or something then all servers and players can download it and use it if they like ?

Effectively, any PW using the ADL_ scheme is already this. SOD and DEX2 are ones I know of.

But which version of heeds_pctools (to use Olbbach example) to put? If the PW admins in the heeds_pctools question get together with each other, and the hak maker if needed, and establish a base standard ADL_ of the hak, it's a massive win for players. There's no flaming going on here, just advocacy for players.

[Frith5]

Good grief.

I agree with the idea that a CEP-like project would benefit players.
 
Now, before anyone jumps on me about being dumb or living in the 'clunky' past, just hear me first.

Players DON"T CARE about this stuff. It's behind the scenes. Players DO CARE (at least I do) about watching the amount of downloads being sucked into their computers, sometimes on a plan that includes severe limits to the daily amount of downloading allowed. That's me.

I don't get to download unlimited amounts per day, on the only kind of internet I can get that isn't dialup. Now, from the behind the scenes perspective, suuurre it ought work fine with the ADL, if everyone is using it right. Well, everyone ain't. From the player perspective, it means re-autodownloading stuff over and over.

Gee, it is really nice that it AUTOMATICALLY re-downloads stuff. Saves me from having to manually RE-DOWNLOAD stuff!!

It's simple, to a player (and don't forget this ain't just about PWs, but any module that includes CC):

I want those beholders, that leucrotta, that werewolf, and those ankhegs to already be on my machine, so when a module, PW or otherwise, uses them, I don't need to go get 'em, 'cause they're already there. Now, I know folks, that the ADL is perfect for that. But player's don't care about the possibilities of perfection, they want results. Give them a base series of haks that contain the best goodies, and it'll become a standard that PWs and modules can bank on and that players can look for and know they'll be compliant. In other words, they won't be downloading the beholders because the module uses the latest ADL-updated version of CEP which contains them. Now, on top of that, there is room for the individual module to have a top hak that adds stuff and overrides the .2da files for the CEP, allowing for all the customization that specific MODULE needs. Don't want the stinking leucrottas in your module, but you have some awesome gibberlings? Super! Put the gibs in your top hak, with the modded .2da, and that's ALL  the player will have to ADL to get into your module.

This CEP-like thing could still use the ADL to pull the resources from the Vault, for the love of all that's holy. It could use the ADL to update itself, for the love of God. All it would be really is the .2das, for goodness's sake.

CEP did a lot to grow and keep alive NWN, although many builders of very high quality may have disliked it, because it wasn't to help out just the builder. It made it easier on the player. "Oh, that module uses the CEP? Great, all I need is their tileset and top hak, and away I go!"

Regards all,

JFK

[dunniteowl]

Frith, the CEP concept just won't work and the complaint about limited download bandwidth is exactly at issue here. Any CEP like package is going to be in the dozen or so GIGABYTES of storage amount for the 'basic package' you indicate. The ADL is the answer and the answer is not about making it easier for builders and admins, quite the opposite, it's about making it easier on the players. That's the whole point. The CEP style concept just won't cut it as morphed from NWN to NWN2. In fact, it was tried and it just flat out failed. It was too hard to manage, no-one really wanted to use it, and the folks who's work went into it tended to kick up a fuss about their stuff being in a Compilation Hak.

That's all the history of where it went. Like I said, at the pre-release point of NWN2, I spend many, many hours, championing discussions about how we should all go about treating CC and making it follow standards, guidelines and compliance objectives.

Again, this all falls to the Will of the Community. If folks would take the few extra minutes of time it requires to get a good handle on using the ADL as a builder or admin, then actually get together and agree to use the haks "as is" from the Vault, the issues of repeated downloads would be GONE. Just gone.

Ultimately, this would result in a longer term ease of maintenance for SP players, PW players and the builders, too. Having to load the files into their own Haks and rename them is the Old Way and it doesn't serve the NWN2 portion of the Community. Then again, the ADL has only been in place for a little over a year now, since 1.23 was released. So it's going to take a bit for this sort of thing to percolate through the Community where it really matters: At the Builder/Admin level.

In the meantime, folks really have to re-examine the models of operation they're currently using to present content to their player bases and ask themselves: What's really the best way to do this?

If folks can get to that point, and then truly take the time to understand their full panoply of options, the Autodownloader that came in the 1.23 Patch really is the answer to this. This is made possible if folks will stop trying so hard to make their haks unique by packing up a lot of common content in their PW_Brand_X Haks and just letting the autodownloader track a list of the content that can be obtained off the vault in lzma format (and get the content creators to upload lzma files for the ADL) and then place their own truly unique stuff in their Hak files.

This will ultimately make it easier on everyone. If you have the content already on your hard drive, then when the ADL examines what you need, your downloads are going to be only those things that are truly unique to the module(s) you're downloading (irrespective of whether it's SP or MP or PW stuff) as opposed to modified blueprints which come already in the module package and, as long as the content is on the player's hard drive (whether it's been sitting there for 1 week, 2 years, or just downloaded today) the ADL won't make you download it again.

This really comes down to learning a new and more efficient way of distributing content for the players. And, when it comes right down to it, its a lot more relaxed and a more "hand's off" approach then folks spending time repackaging stuff. And that repackaging, whether it's PWs or SP modules, or a Project like a CEP, is not necessary if folks will take the time to learn the most efficient methods to get the content to everyone.

Honestly, the ADL is the ONE crowning achievement in content distribution in the NWN2 royal jewels. It just requires that we all look at it more carefully, get on the same page and learn to understand that working together on this, instead of arguing about it, will benefit everyone in the Community.

dunniteowl