230 réponses à ce sujet

[Narsil of NWN]

Wow! As a former NWN1 player on PW's thinking of trying NWN2, this thread has been an eye-opener, to say the least.

To all Admins hoping to recruit new players for your worlds, take note. Guys like me are NOT going to put up with multiple (mostly) duplicate downloads (8 gigs..Yikes!) in seeking out a new place to call home. My "screening-criteria" has a new entry......re-named haks....

(and now back to lurk mode....)

[Haplose]

Frith5 wrote...

Good grief.

I agree with the idea that a CEP-like project would benefit players.
 
Now, before anyone jumps on me about being dumb or living in the 'clunky' past, just hear me first.

Players DON"T CARE about this stuff. It's behind the scenes. Players DO CARE (at least I do) about watching the amount of downloads being sucked into their computers, sometimes on a plan that includes severe limits to the daily amount of downloading allowed. That's me.

I don't get to download unlimited amounts per day, on the only kind of internet I can get that isn't dialup. Now, from the behind the scenes perspective, suuurre it ought work fine with the ADL, if everyone is using it right. Well, everyone ain't. From the player perspective, it means re-autodownloading stuff over and over.

Gee, it is really nice that it AUTOMATICALLY re-downloads stuff. Saves me from having to manually RE-DOWNLOAD stuff!!

It's simple, to a player (and don't forget this ain't just about PWs, but any module that includes CC):

I want those beholders, that leucrotta, that werewolf, and those ankhegs to already be on my machine, so when a module, PW or otherwise, uses them, I don't need to go get 'em, 'cause they're already there. Now, I know folks, that the ADL is perfect for that. But player's don't care about the possibilities of perfection, they want results. Give them a base series of haks that contain the best goodies, and it'll become a standard that PWs and modules can bank on and that players can look for and know they'll be compliant. In other words, they won't be downloading the beholders because the module uses the latest ADL-updated version of CEP which contains them. Now, on top of that, there is room for the individual module to have a top hak that adds stuff and overrides the .2da files for the CEP, allowing for all the customization that specific MODULE needs. Don't want the stinking leucrottas in your module, but you have some awesome gibberlings? Super! Put the gibs in your top hak, with the modded .2da, and that's ALL  the player will have to ADL to get into your module.

This CEP-like thing could still use the ADL to pull the resources from the Vault, for the love of all that's holy. It could use the ADL to update itself, for the love of God. All it would be really is the .2das, for goodness's sake.

CEP did a lot to grow and keep alive NWN, although many builders of very high quality may have disliked it, because it wasn't to help out just the builder. It made it easier on the player. "Oh, that module uses the CEP? Great, all I need is their tileset and top hak, and away I go!"

Regards all,

JFK

As I understand this thread, the renaming and repackaging of haks are the actual problems, not the existance/usage of ADL or CEP.

Where ADL is more convenient tool, as long as people resist the urge to rename and repack, as it limits the downloads to only what is needed and missing.

I also share the opinion that CEP is no magical cure for CC distribution problems.
Back in my NWN1 times the only CEP using PW I used to play did the same thing. Had PWname-CEP files... That's hardly any help at all...
Maybe it's different for a large portion of PWs out there, I don't really know.

But if people resist the urge to rename/repack then ADL will be a superior solution. If people can't resist it, then the CEP will still be inferior, due to much larger repeated downloads (unless people compare contents and re-rename files themselves, rather then re-download the whole thing).

[Banshe]

H everyone.



My name is Banshe and I am a CEP fan...



There I said it.



I always have been and always will be. Personally, I think it is a better choice both here and in NWN1 but at this point, I'm not sure it is worth the effort. I also think it offends the wrong type of person. The person that you don't want to offend. Namely Custom Content designers. Give me a choice between having a CEP and having the CC people jump ship, I'll keep the CC people anytime. So in that sense it is no brainer.



Outside of that issue, what this new idea boils down to is "if everyone does things correctly, it will work". I'm not a fan of human nature. Just look at the Multibrush contest if you want one of many reasons that I have. And there are plenty more examples in real life. So I simply do not believe in a system which requires the cooperative efforts of several disparate groups and individuals. And it is why I believe in the CEP.



Look at what happened in NWN2 PWs before they fixed the override issue. PW Admins were stuffing things into the override folder that broke other PWs. So you had some people who were indifferent (and many of them knew what they were doing) to the harm they were causing.



In this case, having someone download the same hak twice is not actually harmful. So there is even less of a reason to care if you are a PW Admin.



So I really don't like this "if everyone agreed, everything is fine" thing. It breaks when one or more people ignore it.



From a player perspective, a CEP is much easier to understand. It says in big letters: "THIS IS THE CUSTOM CONTENT". But now I'm starting to get into the boring stuff that has been overly beaten to death for years now.



A CEP can and would work better in NWN2 IMHO. But my bigger concern is that the CC people get the respect they want in regard to their donations to the community. And that expectation has to be met.

[Banshe]

If someone had all the major content on their machine that they obtained through a single download session, then a PW could pick and choose amongst those pieces of major content for their PW. Not everyone has to use everything or even attach everything to their mod.

If a PW wants to use pain's monster pack, then all players with this single download would already have it on their computer.

It can't get any simpler than that.

Edit: I'm not saying that this CEP needs to look like the NWN1 CEP. But let's say you took every ADL ready RWS tileset and put them together. And you took pain's monster pack, other tilesets and other pieces of CC and just put them together.

Everything in one download. But not renamed haks with "CEP" or anything liek that.

A PW would not need the big single download. They would only need the haks that they used in the server's hak folder.

The only problem I can see is all the small pieces like numerous clothing haks. But this isn't addressed in the current "everyone agree" system either. Much like the monster pack, I think they would have to be combined.

Modifié par Banshe, 25 octobre 2010 - 12:36 .

[Shallina]

ADL is actually ten time better than CEP for many reason and for everything the both does (providing custom content to the player), even for player.

If you don't know why it's beceause you didn't understand how ADL works.


Basically there is no reason to find CEP better, none at all, if you do it's beceause you are lazy and didn't search enought about ADL.

Now all NWN2 PW don't use the ADL, and the same for NWN PW that don't  necessary use the standard CEP.

Standard distribution for CC  is CEP for NWN.

Standard distribution for CC is ADL for NWN2. But it's not an obligation to use them.

Modifié par Shallina, 25 octobre 2010 - 01:38 .

[Frith5]

Ah, thank you Shallina! Now I understand, thanks to your informative and specific post! What a relief, it's so simple: I'm stupid, and I don't understand things, and I'm stupid.

Whew, what a relief. Now it all makes sense. THANKS!

edit: I forgot about lazy, sorry. I was going to go back and edit this properly, but . . . well, you know . . . I'm lazy.

Modifié par Frith5, 25 octobre 2010 - 01:42 .

[Shallina]

exactly, beceause with ADL Haks you download them only once. Just like the standard CEP.

Wich is your grief, having to download many things.

Now keep in mind that NWN2 is really more powerfull than NWN for custom content possibility, so everyone abuse it, and they are right to do so

But that mean more download.

Modifié par Shallina, 25 octobre 2010 - 02:00 .

[Frith5]

The above is one of the primary reasons I rarely try to play NWN online, to my great regret. It's really that simple.

[Olblach]

Shallina wrote...

If you don't know why it's beceause you didn't understand how ADL works.

YOU don't understand how it works.

Here is how it works:

Let's look at a file entry:

   <resource type="Hak" hash="DF8FB890B93B537438EA7885E41B221B09FA0B40" downloadHash="E21F7AB3F953308DD6ED66CDC4D75F04B3C97074" name="eptorath_socialclothing3.hak" dlsize="67719590" size="392867932" critical="false" exclude="false" urlOverride="">
    <server-ref>
      <string>0</string>
    </server-ref>
  </resource>

These infos are stored in your module's file: moduledownloadresources.XML

The hash is a checksum of all the bytes in the file. It means that two different files generate different hash codes.
As you can see it stores the hash of the file and the download hash. Then it stores the name of the file and the length of the file and of the download file. 

This is the crucial point: the same file name cannot be used for 2 different files, wether or not they are just different versions of the same file and compatible one with the other. Even if one has a typo fix then it is different.

Two different files are automatically downloaded again.

In NWN we could replace an old hak with a newer hak, in NWN2 if you do you redownload. Now we are talking about PW, it's impossible to have all the PWs maintain the same versions for the hak UNLESS they have different names.

Now after the theory, some practice:

I have downloaded socialclothing3.hak here:

http://nwvault.ign.c...s.Detail&id=164

The size is: 392 867 932

Then I went to another PW and got socialclothing3.hak with this size: 410 749 650

That means that if those files are named the same: socialclothing3.hak

Then the users will download the file each time they change PW.

In fact there are four PW I know which use socialcothing3.hak, two use the 410 749 650 version and 2 use the 392 867 932 bytes  version. Fortunately for users the haks have been renamed so they download them just once!:

Now I agree that there is one too many.. In fact there should be socialclothing3.hak and socialclothing3a.hak with the new contents. Or whatever new name you'd like to give it.

Even if I update the file to conform the new length, the fact is tomorrow the file can become 412 567 333 bytes long how do I know? Which control do I have over this? Do I have the guarantee that it wont change? 

The answer is I have no control over the hak and no guarantee that it wont change.

Now give me haks and tell me they are adamantium and not a single byte will change OR ELSE they will be renamed  then I will use them AS IS.

As long as it is not the case I will rename them. Wether or not I understand how ADL (which uses a  LZMA:23 compression type ) works. I do care for my players and won't let them enter into an infinite download hell.

Modifié par Olblach, 25 octobre 2010 - 02:17 .

[kamalpoe]

ADL is cep, except better because you only download exactly what you need without any player effort. The server you connect to determines what you need and the Autodownloader delivers it automatically. So you only get exactly what you need to play without any player effort and without having to download any extra stuff not being used. If you've already got the tilesets, the server does not download them, you already have them. If you've got the monsters, same thing.



If you connect to another ADL server, it checks with your client. It asks: "Hey, do you have the tilesets?" Your client says, "Yes, I have them." The server says "Great, no need to download them again." etc. Automatically, for all ADL content the server uses.



If two servers use the same ADL content, there is no extra download to connect to the second server (other than server specific things).



With NWN1 CEP, you have to download everything. With NWN2 ADL, you only download exactly what you need to play. If you already have everything, you download nothing.

[Shallina]

"Now I agree that there is one too many.. In fact there should be socialclothing3.hak and socialclothing3a.hak with the new contents. Or whatever new name you'd like to give it."

That's the ADL system.

Now it's like the CEP, everyone don't use it, it won't cover every single data used by the PW you are connecting, but will ensure than "the bulk of generic content" won't be downloaded twice.

Modifié par Shallina, 25 octobre 2010 - 02:25 .

[kamalpoe]

Banshe wrote...
If a PW wants to use pain's monster pack, then all players with this single download would already have it on their computer.

It can't get any simpler than that.

But let's say you took every ADL ready RWS tileset and put them together. And you took pain's monster pack, other tilesets and other pieces of CC and just put them together.

That's exactly how it works. Except the combination of say the RWS tilesets is labelled ADL_RWS_tilesets (with RWS blessing) or whatever it's named.

[Olblach]

As I said if the hak creator gives me the guarantee that not a single byte will change then ok i won't rename it. That's as far as I can go

CEP is a method of organization, ADL is a technic. You can't replace method with technic, you need a method for ADL too, wether or not you name it CEP, naming your method ADL is confusing to start with..

Modifié par Olblach, 25 octobre 2010 - 02:32 .

[kamalpoe]

Olblach wrote...
Here is how it works:

The solution is to get together with other PW's using the social hak and making a standardized social hak and getting it blessed by the maker of the content. Then, the things the PW's can't agree on go in a second PW_name_social hak. The common things only have to be downloaded once, via the autodownloader. The PW specific things are named as desired by the PW. As more social PW's agree on things that should be included in the standard social hak, the standard hak is updated.

It's more work for the PW admins. But it's vastly better for the players. Most content outside the social hak has already had this done.

[kamalpoe]

Olblach wrote...

As I said if the hak creator gives me the guarantee that not a single byte will change then ok i won't rename it. That's as far as I can go

CEP is a method of organization, ADL is a technic. You can't replace method with technic, you need a method for ADL too, wether or not you name it CEP, naming your method ADL is confusing to start with..

I believe you misunderstand, ADL is a method of organization, the autodownloader is the technical method. ADL says the haks are named and have content to a community agreed standard. Autodownloader handles downloading of haks when players connect to the server.

Modifié par kamalpoe, 25 octobre 2010 - 02:44 .

[Olblach]

Why do you want to involve more people when it's just a matter of getting the hak creator to give consistent names to his work?

I say we go to UNO at New York and start opening negotiations on haks. 

Modifié par Olblach, 25 octobre 2010 - 02:50 .

[Shallina]

if the content change, then it's no longer the same hak, and then it has a different adl name. With ADL we can upgrade a component without having to download everything again like you have to do with the CEP.

ADL is way way superior to CEP, and that's why it's the solution that was choosen instead of the CEP. And with the autodowloader ? not even need to check the vault to get the good version of your hak.


Now everyone don't use the ADL system.

But everyone in NWN don't use the CEP as well.

The goal of ADL is to have poeple downloading things only once.

Modifié par Shallina, 25 octobre 2010 - 02:48 .

[Olblach]

kamalpoe wrote...

Olblach wrote...

As I said if the hak creator gives me the guarantee that not a single byte will change then ok i won't rename it. That's as far as I can go

CEP is a method of organization, ADL is a technic. You can't replace method with technic, you need a method for ADL too, wether or not you name it CEP,naming your method ADL is confusing to start with..

I believe you misunderstand, ADL is a method of organization, the autodownloader is the technical method. ADL says the haks are named and have content to a community agreed standard. Autodownloader handles downloading of haks when players connect to the server.

I have perfectly understood, though it was not obvious at the beginning of the thread. You will notice [ADL] servers that won't comply to it. because the admin thinks ADL=Autodownload Heck, I even called mine like this when I wanted to keep my server info on one line!

[kamalpoe]

Olblach wrote...

Why do you want to involve more people when it's just a matter of getting the hak creator to give consistent names to his work?

I say we go to UNO at New York and start opening negociations on haks.

Let's say a hak creator makes an custom animation pack, containing 100 custom animations. They call this custom100.hak. A month later, they add an additonal single animation to the pack. The file is still called custom100.hak instead of custom101.hak. This is the problem you describe.

PW's get together and say, hey, there are two custom100 haks. But they are 99+% the same. Why not have a custom100 hak and bundle the custom1 hak seperately for the PW's that want it.

The PW's ask the content creator is this would be ok. The content creator gives their blessing. The PW's do this. Now there's a custom100.hak that is standard, and a custom1.hak for those that want it.

End result, player does not have to redownload the first 100 custom animations as they would if there were a custom100 and a custom101 hak. Win for players.

Other than the social hak, this has already been done for virtually all content. The NWN2 irc channel beats the UN in NY for a meeting place.

[kamalpoe]

Olblach wrote...

kamalpoe wrote...

Olblach wrote...

As I said if the hak creator gives me the guarantee that not a single byte will change then ok i won't rename it. That's as far as I can go

CEP is a method of organization, ADL is a technic. You can't replace method with technic, you need a method for ADL too, wether or not you name it CEP,naming your method ADL is confusing to start with..

I believe you misunderstand, ADL is a method of organization, the autodownloader is the technical method. ADL says the haks are named and have content to a community agreed standard. Autodownloader handles downloading of haks when players connect to the server.

I have perfectly understood, though it was not obvious at the beginning of the thread. You will notice [ADL] servers that won't comply to it. because the admin thinks ADL=Autodownload Heck, I even called mine like this when I wanted to keep my server info on one line!

Would it be better if it was called CEP2? Its the same thing. It's not the players fault if a PW is breaking the standard. And they have to be purposely breaking it, since the ADL standards are all named ADL. There's nothing stopping a NWN1 server from doing that, other than player complaints.

[painofdungeoneternal]

Your diffrentiation is correct, however it misses the point that both are community efforts.



CEP is a group from NWN1 which designed things around the way NWN1 works. Obviously this worked well in NWN1 and it became the standard, but the argument that it worked well in NWN1 does not mean it will work in NWN2. To succeed any CEP like project needs to communicate with and meet the needs of PWs, and also support SP module makers.



ADL is a tool which changes things dramatically for NWN2. The CEP frankly is not wanted in NWN2, it is too bulky and cumbersome, and just won't work for us Admins which is why basically why the PWs i was dealing with never decided to adopt it. The NWN2 community just does not want another CEP in NWN2 since it would restrict what we can do a great deal and is designed for players who don't have a downloader.



We do however get on IRC and the forums and NWN2Wiki and discuss how to work together, and we have various PW's and project that accomplish the same things as the CEP without the restrictions created by that CEP.



If there is a community effort to resurect the CEP it will run into the same issue the CEP did originally, in that only a few will use it and i can say I will not adopt it. But then that is because the NWN2 community is already organizing things without the catchy brand name called CEP. If you want to accomplish something like the CEP it is much better idea for you to "communicate" with the other PWs and see what they do in fact need.



In the end the train has already left the station, there are quite a few already getting on board around what we have already described as ADL compatible, and despite your pointing out the exceptions this is already supported by major PWs, upcoming SP modules, and already supports "every" monster on the vault via pains monster pack, all of RWS content with the support of hellfire, a complete and corrected BCK. It is however in no way complete and still allows PW's to use their own UI, scripting, and 2da rules which allows us to be different, and i am sure the projects set up around the "social" servers have different agendas as you won't find nude outfits in my content.

[Olblach]

Well for the social haks it's handled differently. Basically the creator gave the direct link to the lzma files and let the other servers link directly to her contents. But she reserves the right to update them.

Now i'm not going to tell her to change her way of doing things, I'm glad enough that she shared her hard work. So I'm just renaming the haks and problem is solved. But if I can figure out a way to update the server haks when her files change then I might just link to them directly. Though I doubt I would do it since a slight change to a 2da or xml could make big troubles.

As for ADL, it looks like a secret organization, do you have a website or something? I don't mind using your haks (heed_pctools, dmfi,...)

And seriously change the name about everybody says ADL for autodownloader

proof

Modifié par Olblach, 25 octobre 2010 - 03:16 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

It's not a secret group, if you look at the forums here its the people who are active in the community, and if you want to discuss how to do things, set up a "standard" hak for content that is not covered fine. Usually there is a large discussion in IRC for new content, we discuss things right here, and there is some discussion on the citadel, and files are on the citadel. There is no "formal" group like the CEP had since the group is really the entire community already, and the priority is to allow the module/PW creators the most freedom while also ensuring players are not wasting bandwidth, all done so it works with what is on the vault.



Note that the 2da or XML will NEVER be part of this, because of the issues you seem to be noticing, everything is setup WITHOUT 2da and XML, and you can use whatever blueprints, 2da and xml UI files without regard for the common content. This is how i customize my PW and those roleplay worlds customize their content and why we can work together, any system which includes those files is going to only be usable by certain PW's.



We also are not restricting things, if someone wanted to extend what i am doing via a "social" ( note that social means nude and adult content in this meaning ), it would just need to ensure no overlap/conflicts in model names with what we already are doing. Each PW also can mix and match custom and standardized content. I am personally handling the monsters, and did BCK, and also help quite a few folks set up their content. There are some folks working on standardized tilesets.

[Olblach]

Well you need to give people guidelines about where to download your haks or it will stay private.

[kamalpoe]

Olblach wrote...
Well you need to give people guidelines about where to download your haks or it will stay private.

You just sign into the PW, the autodownloader takes care of it. Easy peasy lemon squeasy.  No need to say "go to the X and download Y" Just connect to the PW, that's it.