230 réponses à ce sujet

[Olblach]

Well, get those adl_ on the vault already that will get you started... put them in lzma, zip, bz2,rar,arc,uue (well maybe not uue ) or whatever other format but just make them available so other pws can host them just like you do and problem is solved. Maintain a list of the "ADL comittee" approved haks with their size and eventually hash code, on a wiki, vault page, or a joomla blog and you are done.

We are using nwvault since 2003 and it never failed us why boycott it?

[painofdungeoneternal]

 One: You mention that posting haks in LZMA format provides no benefit with the autodownloader, as well as mention the problems with hosting the files on the Vault. Please, tell us, in your point of view, what is the best method for posting the files themselves (ie: .rar, .zip, 7zp, etc) and how best to host those files.

No benefit meaning it just did not work and no one adopted it, as evidenced by putting it up for ALL RWS vault pages and no PW ended up using it to this day, and only after i moved to putting them up as haks in a zip file did module makers and PW admins start using it.

The reasons raw lzma files not being used are as follows:

• The lzma file HAS to be created by your toolset to properly be put in the xml file. Even if you have the lzma file and the original hak it will recreate the lzma file. Even just changing the target folder makes you do a complete regeneration of all xml files.
• The vault is just too slow, use drop box or you will lose players complaining about the hours it takes to download relatively small files. If you use drop box this entire complaint goes away - remember the goal is to make it so easy for players they don't even think of changing how things work.
• End users see the slow download, they go to the original vault page, download the lzma file and put it in their hak folder and then don't understand why it still repeats the download.
• LZMA is a format no one knows how to deal with. Posting it on the vault means you have to get some sort of decompression software, at one point even 7zip did not understand the extension. This confuses ALL the PW admins unless i am on IRC explaining it to them. It might work for you, but i know for a fact ( via seeing how they react on IRC ) a new PW admin is going to assume that the lzma is all they need when what they need is the actual hak.
• You have to use an override URL to the location on the vault for each and every file hosted in this manner, which is a lot of "busy work" for the PW Admin, and just using drop box makes this much easier.

Note that this all technically can work, it's mainly issues related to how human beings deal with it, and some "chicken or the egg" ordering issues which make it so it just does not work for how it's encountered by end users.

Two: You mention the coordination required to have the haks named appropriately, and to avoid redundant downloads. Who all should really be involved in this sort of discussion to standardize the methods of file production and then distribution? In this I mean, a considered approach to naming conventions, modifications to existing files and compiling the necessary .2da's and such to make everything 'play nice?'

The content creators, with QA reviews by experienced PW Staff who review custom content and have some expertise related to the type of content. It should be tied to the original vault pages so the authors get proper credit whenever possible. Any content i prep for this should be hosted by the original author if possible and also any revisions, adjustments and additions ( like tint maps ) which the community needs should be put into this hak, named with the authors name, and provided as a hak in 7zip format which has the best compression. ( Its use is widespread enough that you need it regardless and it handles just about everything on the vault ). The final arbiter of what is official should not be some CEP like team, but the original content creator.

The hak they provide is ok like they are doing now, but i would require it to be named as follows, adl_authorname_projectname.hak as the convention be provided as a separate download just to make its clear, it cannot have things in it which change every patch or rules change, or which need to be merged with other authors, blueprints, 2da's, xml files and a few other things which should be provided as loose files all in a single zip ( no erfs ). Such a file needs to be vetted by a good PW Admin who does QA procedures - Sea of dragons, myself, ALFA, and a few dozen others have a member of their PW team who does nothing but this, and if possible the person with the most expertise in that type of custom content. Models and the like with numbering should be reviewed for conflicts with existing content and if new content is the same as old, the new content needs to be renumbered.

This file should be updated with no name changes for the first few months of it's existance, until all issues are apparent and it's been put into the field and able to receive public content. Any PW or author desiring a variation or tweak should provide this for the benefit of all. After this period of time it should be declared "sacred" and no longer subject to changes and all new revisions added to a hak numbered 2 and so forth. This is to try to keep the total number of haks within reason, while still allowing content to be locked at some point.

2da's and the like should be separate since they are minor issues, if we have 2 sets of creators with different 2da's more the merrier, and if your PW just wants "roman" deities, go ahead and edit the deities to remove the standard gods. Basically this is not part of this project, it still needs to be done, but if every PW/Module has completely different 2da's that means they all are totally unique. The NWN2Wiki reservation system keeps things sane to a degree, but we all can agree to disagree and a base universal 2da for each type which gets everything working together is needed. However despite our competing views on how we should play the game, the models, textures and other things which take up Gigs of hard drive space need to be made to work together despite .

Three: Is there something else that we, as a Community, in your view, seem to be overlooking in this discussion?
Also, for anyone, if you can get The Grinning Fool to sort of hop in here and make some comments on the autodownloader itself (that isn't already contained in the autodownloader sticky topic in the Toolset Forums -- I believe it is...) then by all means, I think that'd be worthy as an objective as well.

The issue is getting from where we are now, or where we were when the AutoDownloader was released, to the ideal where all the established PW's players want to play on are using this new system and which meets the needs of all stakeholders and their very different ways of looking at things, which gets this implemented because it truly benefits them instead of forcing them into it, and does not result in something which only works for roleplay, or for action, or for social servers alone. There is always division, even the amount of content desired in total various from PW to PW, some want a huge all inclusive set of content, others focus on total download size and make sure it stays small as possible. A lot of the thinking i am trying to do is how to make the end result work for everyone, even if this is just adopted to a small degree.

Right now the main issue is getting the established PW admins on board. For new admins i've already got it set up as the path of least resistance. If you want to just not deal with custom content that much, you probably just need to get on IRC and describe the things you are looking for, and you will have experienced admins recommending which haks to install for what you are doing. I hear roman/greek PW and i already know you will use the grecian looking columns from BCK. Other wise you could just log into my PW and download my content ( or sea of dragons ), and you get a full starting package already proven to work well once you get my blueprints.

Now we have to remember to think of this not from just our point of view, or the players point of view, but from the poinf of view of the PW admin. A big milestone will be getting Luna to redo the content for Baldur's gate, which they are understandably loathe to do - if you have a full server of 60+ players you don't want to do anything to upset the server count. Note that Luna is not against this, it's more about the fact they have invested so many hours in their current setup. Think about it from that PW's staff point of view, you are changing the building blocks of your PW just to redistribute the files used in your PW and must stop all development to spend what is probably a good month testing the changes with the understanding it could just break everything, and the player will have to download 4 or so gigs of new content, all of which to make it easier for your players to go play on some other PW and which should not really result in any changes to your PW. So we need to figure out how to both convince them to change, and also how to transition to the new system in a way that does not cause their players to leave, nor which divides the community by attacking certain members to force them to comply.

The major SP project i'd like to get using this is purgatorio. I'd like to go over their files and content prior to release and do the same QA work i do on my PW, ensure it's conflict free and organized to work well with the downloader so the initial release does not need to be reworked to be used by other projects. This means chopping up the content so it makes sense from the perspective of end users ( so you make separate downloads for each tileset and one for each type of area for the placeables ) and making sure there are no 2da conflicts. I'm already doing this for monsters so this would just reduce the overall amount of downloading needed for this massive module for those who play on PWs, and once you play this major module the PW admins will know they can add it to their PWs as is and that most players will already have it.

The idea here is to have examples to lead the way. Pains Monster Pack and my revamping of BCK were just examples. I can't do it all myself. However end users and content creators can look at those and understand what is needed and how it works, and you can see the benefits to the PW's using the shared content. But everything needs to be done with a focus on quality instead of quantity, which is the major reasons to avoid at all costs doing it like CEP was done, instead we need something more like project Q. It is also better to have many small projects instead of one massive project which trys to be everything to everyone.

The issue is not marketing to end users, or what end users want, the end users only choice in this matter is whether they will play NWN2 or some other game since this all has to be set up by the module makers. If they like a given PW or SP module and learn they need to download 8 gigs of content they will run for the hills--no they already have run the hills based on conversations i have had and that is why there are so many PWs which have so few players. Which is why we as content providers need to solve this issue for the end users, and i can say using standardized haks really makes them not mind download an extra few gigs. But we need to do it in a way so the end result is not a standardized base game which they install up front, but something that allows module makers to make great worlds based on everything from d20 modern to Cthulu, to dragon lance to some adult themed social PW and not just the standard faerun.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 26 octobre 2010 - 05:28 .

[Frith5]

ROFL @ the Bat Thing comment! What a tension releaser. I wonder if DNO did that on purpose accidentally?

Well, there's a lot of good info in this thread (along with a few insulting remarks by a certain someone who shallina go nameless). I have nothing against the ADL method, except for the problems I've had with re-downloading content between PW visits.

To clear up a misconception about the CEP though, one certainly does not have to re-download everything when it changes. The CEP has used an auto-updater for a few years now, that checks your install, and ONLY applies new content or changes to existing content, right on your machine. Once you have the CEP installed, you can simply update weekly or monthly, to get only the newest stuff. This saves a trememdous amount of bandwidth.

My ideal for NWN2 is not to take anything away from the autodownloader, or the use of ADL as a method. Instead, I'd like to see it try to become something more (to the public), like the CEP became. A trusted name that a PLAYER (listen, I know Admins love the autodownloader, and players with unlimited, very fast download may not mind the current setup too), a PLAYER, can see at a glance uses the stuff they already have on their machine. 

The autodownloader is a great addition to the game. It should be used all the time, for PWs. And, it sounds like CEP-like projects are indeed under way, though it may make some of you cringe to hear it called that. What is a 'monster pack' other than a collection of disparate content assembled to work together, in a single package? That's the CEP, or one aspect of it, don'tch think?

Regards,
JFK

[painofdungeoneternal]

So i have a PW.

One of my users decides to update their content to the latest version and i don't.

Now it either downloads the old version in NWN2, or it makes my server completely unstable like it does in NWN1.

Which is what the autodownloader does, it completely removes the player from the equation, it downloads just the files that are needed. And if you have a smart admin who uses a LOT of hak's instead of one huge hak, it ends up downloading just what is needed intead of redownloading a gig or two of content.

You also download everything up front even if it's not even in any module or PW, and those making things with the CEP are restricted to just what is provided. In contrast with what i am aiming for us having in NWN2 encourages each PW to have their own unique content in their own haks right next to the standardized haks. It also only makes you download files as they are needed for a given module so you can slowly download what is needed as you play the game.

To compare it to the CEP really misses the points that make it different. To me it's often more important to look at what a project does not do, as opposed to what it does. The CEP is not just model content which is what we are discussing, it's scripts, 2da's and everything to make what is in effect a NWN1.5. It is an expansion to NWN1.

What i am discussing is mainly just models and textures. My monster pack has an appearance.2da which is not even on the vault page, but in a link in case you need one. Even the blueprints are declared a complete mess and declared separate and use at your own risk. What i did is what is important, and in such a way that existing PW's and PW modules can just drop in my pack without having to merge any content or changing what they are using now unless they want to.

To me what you are describing makes perfect sense if i was playing NWN1, however it does not really make full use of what you can do with the autodownloader, which will let us do so much more things in NWN2 than folks ever thought of doing in NWN1.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 26 octobre 2010 - 06:00 .

[Shallina]

The goal of this stuff is: you connect to the PW, and the autodownloader launch and you have to download as few as possible, and only the PW specific stuff. Nothing involved in the player end, and stuff have to be downloaded only once accross the PW/module that adopt this system.

All the custom that you al ready have, you don't have to DL it again. It's 100 time better than the CEP beceause it's really easy for the PW maker to add new stuff and to not be tied to the CEP and what they decide to put in or not. You aren't tied to the CEP will and wish and humor and content.

Also we are sure to avoid any conflicting version. In other word, it's the next step. See the "2" after NWN ? It's the next step, an improvement over what was done with NWN, and this ADL system, is the next step after the CEP.

What's a conflicting version ? it's just what you described, I update my CEP but the PW where I play doesn't, and then I got conflicting version instability and possible crash when gaming.

If you still don't understand why the ADL method + autodownloader is 100 times better than what was done with the CEP in NWN, there is only one solution :

You didn't even look at what that ADL system is or made the effort to understand it. And that's why I said "LAZY". Beceause if you have understood how both work, there is no discussion possible about wich one is better.

So now the question you may ask : Why wasn't it done for the good old NWN ? The answer is very simple, it wasn't possible to do it with NWN, but it is with NWN2. So why restrain ourselve to something inferior ?


I hate it when poeple comme say everything is super bad beceause Feature X is not here (CEP in this case) when there is something 100 times better  wich does the same thing (giving CC to players) in a clearly improved manner.  It's not that bad when it's only once, but when you got poeple still persist while the new feature as been handled to them on a silver plater and explained, well only one word comes to my mind : "LAZY".

Modifié par Shallina, 26 octobre 2010 - 09:50 .

[Banshe]

There is no doubt the pain has done a tremendous amount towards unity in the PW/Module maker realm. He has made great progress.



As for me contacting the PW admins etc. and networking this thing, it is not the approach that I would prefer. I still have a rather bad taste in my mouth from the CTP where there were insinuations from many corners that compilation makers were there to steal credit for the things in the compilation. I was there to make a compilation to use with my own module project. But anyways, it is better if the PW people etc. make this decision themselves.



I think the progress made so far is great. I also think that the final step is to collect it under an umbrella and brand it. And I think the CC/PW people should be the ones to do it to maintain control over their own assets and can address their own needs/desires/requirements.

[dunniteowl]

I have a dream that folks can work things out.  I know that there is disparity and division in points of view in all manner of things.  However, in principle, I believe the issues that are apparent are actually apparent to all in one manner or another.  I believe in the power of reason and dedicated self interest at some level to ultimately do the thing that is in the best interests of all.

I could offer that this doesn't need an "umbrella" organization or label to make it work.  However, if folks would feel better about it, over at the Citadel, since before NWN2 was released, I argued for Community Created Custom Content Compliant standards.  Or C5.  This 'standard' or Mark of Approval if you will, has been around in concept since before we got our dirty little mittens on NWN2.  It doesn't make people do things differently, or require of them to follow it at all.  If they do, then the mark of C5 would show that the content in the haks conforms to a set of agreeable standards that has, as its ultimate objective, making things work well together without anyone having to compromise on the quality of their work or how they work.

It covers naming conventions (to be agreed upon by creators, builders and admins) as well as distribution methods, accreditation for authors and a set of 'best practices' that has, as their aim, the benefit of the Community as a whole with a focus on making this easier for players, who we all ultimately must attract and please to stay alive in this venue.

Even if players in this particular interest have no direct involvement in developing and establishing the standards, they (The Players) are at the forefront of how this technology (the autodownloader) and the techniques to it's most effective use operate and benefit from it.  This can sound like some Pie in the Sky concept or it can be a complete Nuts and Bolts Approach, depending on your particular point of view.  The truth is, though, is it is driven by the Pie and made to work by the solid application of things we know will work.

Moreover, there is really no reason to oppose using this new technology other than those already listed by pain, which is that some PWs are already up and running and the effort that goes into transiting to the new technology and techniques cannot be made too large or cumbersome to be done.  In fact, if done properly, it can be tranisted over time with the application of just a few of the content haks at a time, test for effect, then move to the next set.

If this is done in a sensible manner, respecting the time and effort of the PWs that have yet to transition,  then little by little, it can be done to potential completion by all. 

To my view, this has less to do with branding something or getting name recognition than it is just to get people to actually talk to each other.  To consider the facts and the objectives and aims of what has to be done or could be done that would prove, in the long run, a greater benefit than just keeping things as they are.  The will of the Community is the final arbiter in all cases like this.  That said, it takes strong personalities within any Community to lead, either by example or through the ability to bring people together, hopefully both and have the staying power to see things through to the end of concept and into the middle at least of implementation.

I think this part of the Community is at a crossroads.  We are at that point where we have an opportunity to really make a change in just a few small things that have great potential and consequence to make things orders of magnitude better.  Better for the players, better for builders and admins and, better for content creators.  This technology *(the autodownloader) and the methods to make it work most efficiently (the ADL system) have the potential to make the Community more effective for, and easier on, the players while at the same time, making it easier to manage in the long run for builders, admins and even content creators.

Instead of digging our heels in for a fight, the best thing we can all do is get together and truly come to a concordance of what must occur to make this easier for everyone to adopt, use and maintain over what we have now.  It's like some folks don't want to change and I respect that for all the right reasons.  That said, this is not change for the sake of change, this is change that will, without question, act to make things better for everyone involved.

And for that reason, I ask, I encourage, I implore you all to think not how to find ways to stop it, but to find ways to make it work for everyone.  This is one of those things and one of those times where it is in all our best interests to make this work.  Even if you don't like it for yourself, I think getting behind this and helping will still make things better.

I used to be in the Air Force.  While I was there, they were just really getting computing going for keeping track of things.  I worked on aircraft radios and we were pretty busy all that time.  We had to fill out these forms in longhand.  Everyone hated them.  So what happened when we got computers where we had to enter all this data in the computer?

Everyone complained.  Oh, man, now we have to learn how to use these damn things.  Don't we have enough to do as it is?  God, why can't folks just leave things alone, we're doing fine.

At the end of about 6 months, the system went down.  You know what happened?  Oh GOD! Now what will we do?  How are we going to get any work done?  The system's down, we're totally hosed!

So I pointed to the filing cabinet where all our old paperwork was still stored and said, "Well, we can do it the old way until the system's back up."

Oh no!  By hand?  You gotta be kidding me!  That's going to take forever!

The point here is that most folks don't like change and will complain about it as it's happening all around them.  Then, once the change is complete and they've adjusted, going back to the old way of doing things just doesn't seem like a good or useful idea -- even if it might be necessary during a crisis.

So, complain all you like, but sooner or later, once this change becomes pretty much endemic to the Community, you're going to realize the benefits and gains from it, and you really won't want to do it any other way.  I'm quite confident of that.  My experience watching changes occur in society in the last 50 years, if nothing else, has taught me something about general human nature -- myself included.  You may not like it while it's happening, but once it's on the way and you accept it, you won't want to go back to the old ways.

Who here still has a rotary dial telephone?  Who here still has a land line?  Anyone still listening to cassette tapes instead of CDs or MP3's?  Same thing, folks.  We need to roll with this and go for it.  In the long run, it's going to make our lives easier.

And, in the end, that's what it's all about: ease of use and distribution of the files that make this game even better than before.

best regards,
dunniteowl

[Frith5]

pain wrote: ". . .those making things with the CEP are restricted to just what is provided."

What do you mean? Anyone using CEP can easily add their own content on top of it, using the Top Hak method, which contains their modified .2da to address their added content.

The problem of a player updating their CEP before a server does so is no different than the problem of one PW using ADL_Monsters, and another one using ADL_MyMonsters, when both contain almost exactly the same models.

Shallina wrote: "All the custom that you al ready have, you don't have to DL it again. It's 100 time better than the CEP beceause it's really easy for the PW maker to add new stuff and to not be tied to the CEP and what they decide to put in or not. You aren't tied to the CEP will and wish and humor and content."

You DO too have to download it again, if the next PW you visit has the same content in another named file. Sure you do!

How is it easier for the PW maker to add new stuff, 100 times easier (!!)? Using CEP, you simply put your content into a .hak file, along with your .2da files, and put that hak at the top of the list. Done and done!

Furthermore, the truth is I'm not talking about how much easier it is for the PW maker. I'm concerning myself with how easy it is for the player, and how they can avoid re-downloading the same models over and over and over.

Lastly (and I mean it), calling someone Lazy has no place here, no matter what excuses you trot out, Shallina. Lazy to me is ignoring a real problem, like re-downloads, in favor of cheerleading and bashing anyone who questions if things can be made better.

The end.

JFK

[Shallina]

For PW that name the CEP differently you have to download the whole thing again for NWN.

Or you can duplicate the CEP hak and rename it.

You can do exactly the same thing here.

That problem you are mentionning of PW who aren't in the norm yet for common custom stuff is exactly the same for NWN and its CEP and NWN2 and its ADL system.

For module that aren't in the norm, you got to do the full download of their custom stuff and this for both game, NWN and NWN2.

Modifié par Shallina, 26 octobre 2010 - 04:41 .

[Frith5]

Shallina wrote: "For PW that name the CEP differently you have to download the whole thing again for NWN."

If someone names the CEP differently, they aren't advertising a CEP module. They are instead pretending the CEP stuff is their own stuff. Nobody is fooled into believing its a CEP module.

With the current system for NWN2, the problem is more subtle, because there isn't a recognized name to associate with packages a player has already downloaded. Now, if ADL was promoted more like a CEP, I think it'd be wonderful. I don't see why the two ideas seem to be mutually exclusive to people. I want to use the autodownloader, for goodness' sake! I don't need a lecture on using the downloader; I know it's great stuff! But, I want to use the downloader more sensibly, judiciously, and frugally. That's all.

If a PW can say, "We are guaranteed, certified ADL-compliant", and I know what that means (that the stuff used is consistenly named, etc., then all is most excellent. Without something like, "ADL-Compliant" to look for though, each trial of a new PW is a pig in a poke wherein I may be downloading the same content for the twentieth time.

It doesn't have to be CEP, or a physical series of .haks. I understand that concept, and I applaud it. But I want a way to know a module (including PWs) is using that system as advertised. If I can see "CEP compliant", or "ADL-Certified", or whatever, I can know the only stuff I'll be getting is the stuff for that PW.

JFK

edit: I signed this post twice... must be tired.

Modifié par Frith5, 26 octobre 2010 - 05:05 .

[dunniteowl]

And Frith5, this is exactly where we are at this moment in time.

We have to get together as a concerted group of disparate individuals and hammer out what it means to be ADL compliant. That was the nubs and rubs of my last post. What we really need at this point is for folks to actually come together and talk about this. Not in just IRC or not just in PMs, but in an open arena where all and sundry can see what's being attempted and what needs doing.

Nearly 5 years ago I offered this venue to be done over at the Citadel and it had some gas for a short time, but then folks just sort of went on about their business. It wasn't their fault or the fault of the ideas. It was the technology available didn't support such a concept very well and we all sort of knew that.

Now the situation has changed and I think it's a good time to come back to the table and see where we can make improvements and if not garner a complete unity of viewpoint, at least a concensus point of view on how to proceed from here to make things more useful on the whole.

And I agree, the word Lazy is probably inappropriate for this discussion and I would offer that possibly 'uninformed' would better fit this situation on the whole. I also understand that what one person thinks a word means, based on their original native tongue, and what a native speaker hearing that word thinks it means can also just add another layer of confusion on a subject that doesn't need any more than it already has.

So like I said. This is a time where we as a Community are at a crossroads. Do we, as a larger group simply keep plodding along the main trail like we've always been doing so far, or do we take the other route and see where that takes us?

I've never been much of a conventional, just the old way is fine, kind of guy until I've tested out a few other things to see if it's true or not.

Again, though, these issues that keep getting raised about having to redownload everything applies equally to NWN and NWN2 with or without the downloader as long as folks keep renaming stuff. And whether it's common or not, the CEP packages do get renamed by other groups in NWN and have been doing so for years now. It's taken a while to get most of the folks on board in NWN to stop doing that and it's not yet 100% there. So this issue with and in NWN2 is not going to be solved over night.

And that's why I said folks need to be vested in seeing this through not just in the idea and conceptual framework stage where the answers are all there. It must also be driven to completion through a solid and worakable program of implementation across the board.

In my experience, this is the single hardest thing for folks to get a handle on. I cannot tell you how many different high tech and highly education places I have worked at that sat through several brainstorming and team workgroups to solve problems, come up with answers, pat themselves on the back and, instead of implementing the changes, started solving another issue instead. Then four months later had to come back and wonder what happened to their great plan for that other issue?

Truth was, there was no-one at the wheel. They were all too busy getting another endorphin fix from solving another problem and no-one was willing to be the guy who rolled up the sleeves and got to work actually implementing the solutions.

We really do know what we need to make this work. We should hammer it out a bit better and formalize it and get a general consensus on it. Then it has to be driven, implemented and held on course.

That last bit is the tricky part. And this is why I mentioned that we will indeed, require folks to act as leaders by example and leaders through persuasion and moderating influence on others. And we will require both. This is not a hard job, it's just a longer one than most would care to have without pay or direct compensation. I've been here the whole time, promoting this idea and how to get it going. I am going to be here and see it through and hopefully, along with other key members of the Community who can provide clean examples of it working and being implemented (as I have no PW and no modules close to completion, I can only attempt to persuade and influence folks) so that it can be driven to completion in the near future.

This is where we are. This is what we have to do. Now, let's sort it out and get moving along at a greater momentum than we already are, I say.

dunniteowl

Modifié par dunniteowl, 26 octobre 2010 - 05:32 .

[Shallina]

Complex things don't get build in one day.

And for those who use their own version of custom stuff like CEP, no they don't want at all to fool anyone, they just wants to be in full controle of the stuff they are adding to their work so no incompatibility or conflict may occur with stuff that isn't in the default package.
also one of the reason wich made the CEP not exist in NWN2 is beceause  some content creators said that CEP steals their work and fool everyone....

Modifié par Shallina, 26 octobre 2010 - 07:02 .

[Frith5]

Shallina wrote...

Complex things don't get build in one day.

And for those who use their own version of custom stuff like CEP, no they don't want at all to fool anyone, they just wants to be in full controle of the stuff they are adding to their work so no incompatibility or conflict may occur with stuff that isn't in the default package.
also one of the reason wich made the CEP not exist in NWN2 is beceause  some content creators said that CEP steals their work and fool everyone....

1. True, complex things don't get built in a day. Hell, sometimes they never get built. But then again, complexity is not what we're trying for here, is it? Rather, simplicity.

2. No. CEP doesn't work that way. You must know this. Anyone renaming the CEP haks is not going to then say their module uses CEP. Why would they? You can add anything you want to CEP without changing CEP. And really, I've never seen anyone bother to rename all the CEP haks. It'd be stupid, and folks who work hard to put together modules and PWs aren't often stupid. Why does this tactic continue? Saying false things about CEP benefits nobody here. And yet, it continues with stuff like, "Well, you can't really customize or add your own stuff, with CEP..." blah blah blah. Come ON!

3. Now we finally come to it. This, I think, has a lot more to do with why there is no CEP for NWN2 than the ADL or anything else. THIS IS IT! PW Admins, and some CC creators don't like the idea of CEP, and some of them think it detracts from their accolades and control over their content. So be it.

4. Repeating stuff over and over gets tiresome. For whatever reasons, NWN2 seems to have developed into quite an exclusive club of insularity. I feel like an outsider looking in, and so I rarely try anymore. Too bad, because there are great people involved, and it's a great game. But everyone seems bent on tight control of things, to the exclusion of players. Players seem like an afterthought in some ways, down at the bottom of the totem pole, below CC creators, PW Admins, and posters who demonstrate that they know exactly the meaning of the word Lazy, but its okay 'cause they're on the right side of the issue.

So, I'll be shutting up now. I'm sure you all absolutely do know more about the game than I do, and so it is really entirely possible you have the future correctly mapped. Good luck, and I hope it all works well. I'll keep an eye on things, to see what develops, but as for PWs I'm taking a powder. I simply can't afford the downloading scheme that's currently in place.

Regards, and remember to have fun! This is a great community, and a great game. Sorry if I sound down. I'm not really, but just tired of the struggle.

JFK

[painofdungeoneternal]

Frith5 wrote...
3. Now we finally come to it. This, I think, has a lot more to do with why there is no CEP for NWN2 than the ADL or anything else. THIS IS IT! PW Admins, and some CC creators don't like the idea of CEP, and some of them think it detracts from their accolades and control over their content. So be it.

Well this is very true. I can't stand the CEP and things like it like the social suite. But it's not about ego - that is making the assumption that my reasons are not valid. It's because it tries to do everything, scripts, 2da's, everything so those who use it don't have to manage the content. The resulting product just does not work, and my players have said over and over they don't want to download very much content, CEP or not. Right now my PW's total file size you have to download is smaller than our NWN1 version was using the CEP ( prior to their removing it entirely ) and i actually use far more custom content throughout my PW now than was used then.

Selling me on the idea the CEP is good is not going to happen, while you know more about it and can argue things point by point since you are involved, i have seen enough of it to know it's not what i want for my PW. I agree with your points that my issues can be mitigated, but it's still a lot of extra content which i am not going to use and a lot of details which just cause it to be a non starter for my PW. I've seen it's effect on Pw's, the division that goes along with it, and not having it in NWN2 to me is a major reason i prefer NWN2. We need something where we work together of course, but something like the CEP is a step backwards.

As for detracting from control of my content, that is what a PW admin does, why my players like my PW because i happen to do that well. Its more than just areas, it's integrating things so they work, and a lot of attention to details most just don't notice to make my Pw stable and run well. This is something a lot of those aggregating content just don't savvy since they focus so much on quantity instead of quality. They also don't have a perspective on how the pieces they are doing fit into the finished product the players see.

I think a lot of it is control. CEP was about control, the content creators got upset because the CEP did not listen to their needs, nor did it listen enough to PW admins. It was good because in NWN1 it was very hard to go too far away from the faerun based vanilla game, and CEP really was the only option for making custom content usable. Those running the CEP were basically in control and they decided what was in or what was not in and there was plenty of ego running around. To me control means i can make what i envision for my PW happen, and if i have to do all my own content to do that then i will.

What is needed in NWN2 is a system which allows the PW admins to run their PW's the way they want. This is a GOOD THING.

We need to respect the content creators, this is a good thing as well.

We need things modular so if i want just 2% of the content i can use it and still work with everyone else who wants 80% of the content without duplication.

We need things to operate so anyone can contribute IF they respect existing content via reservations or not reusing the same model/texture filename which causes conflicts. This means no gate keepers, if it's on the vault it can work with what we are doing assuming it fits some technical requirements regardless of whether it's nude bikini girls or d20 modern even if i completely hate content like that. The choice of what is included is ALWAYS to be by the PW's and module makers, not some group choosing what is in and what is out.

We need to not do 2da's or XML or scripts, this is just raw content to be used as PW Admins and module makers wish, and project which provide those things should be seen as separate projects entirely. I totally think the features of the CEP are amazing, i just don't think a all in one package really is a good thing no matter how nice the dm toolse they are doing are.

Comparing what i am aimed at doing to the CEP really assumes that the issues the PW admins have are not valid to begin with. It also assumes that if we did it like it's done in NWN1 now with the CEP the ADL would not be needed, but this assumption also does not use the ADL to it's full capacity but assumes there is a private downloader in addition.

Basically in NWN1 we had to take the CEP as it was, warts and all and despite your partisan support it had many faults. But with the Autodownloader we can have our cake and eat it too.

And despite the proponents here of the CEP wanting it, a project like the CEP is just not going to happen unless it addresses the issues us PW Admins have if we are going to adopt it. This does not mean ignoring the needs of the players, but it means making sure the final solution listens to the needs of all stakeholders. This is trying to do a lot more than the CEP did, and at the same time a lot less, the main reason it is more complex than the CEP is because it is treating the needs of so many types of potential users.

If you want to discuss this try to start with the base we have to work with in NWN2 with our current custom content and the autodownloader. Bringing up the term CEP has a lot of meanings for me, a lot of bad connotations. We need a fresh start which focuses on how NWN2 works and not something designed to solve limitation in NWN1.

And we need listen to those of us who are actually in the trenches deciding what custom content is used by our players, regardless of everything said here, these are the ones who will decide what is or is not used at the end of the day.

[Shallina]

Pain said it all.

The biggest problem with the CEP, is that it is the CEP who is in charge of what is in and what is not.

And this is a very very very very bad thing.

Teh ADL system make you download things only once as well, but no one can controle what I want to do And this is 100 times better. Basically, no one can tell me: no you can't put this in the ADL. Adding things to it hurts no one, and every one can do it

And this feature alone makes the CEP a tool of the past.

Modifié par Shallina, 26 octobre 2010 - 11:48 .

[NWN DM]

Can't help but feel this thread has become phyrric in nature.

[BartjeD]

That said: Skullhak and Chaos placables do see use and interest. They are in essence a compilation of stuff.



A series of compatible compilations would not be a bad thing I think.



Possibilities are:



Tile Accumulation pack

Model Accumulation pack

Texture Accumulation pack

Placable Accumulation pack



etc.. This could be very interesting for builders and easy for players.



The auto downloader is a great boon though

[kamalpoe]

BartjeD wrote...
Possibilities are:
Tile Accumulation pack
Model Accumulation pack
Texture Accumulation pack
Placable Accumulation pack
etc.. This could be very interesting for builders and easy for players.
The auto downloader is a great boon though

That is, in essence, what the ADL packs are. I personally am using Skullhak for my campaign (and it's too far along to change), but for future work I'm using ADL for single player.

[NWN DM]

BartjeD wrote...

Tile Accumulation pack
Model Accumulation pack
Texture Accumulation pack
Placable Accumulation pack

etc.. This could be very interesting for builders and easy for players.

These would total a number of GB for everyone to download and not all the content would be used.

The ADL also works better with smaller files.  A gargantuan 1.5 GB lmza file would cause huge problems.

It's already easy for players; connect and files stream. 

You need 175 MB of haks, you get them and only them.  You don't get the 175 MB plus another 300 that isn't needed (at least you don't if the Admin for the module does things properly).

[Olblach]

Ok, i want to add hobbit houses to my module, I've heard about the ADL committee.

Where do I check that there is a hobbit house hak in adl?
Where do I go to get it?
And I'd prefer not connect on a server because I need my NWN2 client to develop my PW and my connection is slow, It will be much faster if i can download it from my server then get it  from there on my home computer than uploading at 25Kb/second  from my home computer to my server.

Modifié par Olblach, 28 octobre 2010 - 12:25 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

I actually have that one ( surprisingly enough ) so easiest thing is just to hop onto my PW and you will have it.



If you ever hop onto IRC you'd be able to actually discuss things a lot better.

[Olblach]

Yes but I don't want to connect on a PW and do I have to post here each time I'm looking for a hak?

You guys need to make this simple to use.

Uploading a 70mb file  from my computer to my server takes about 1 hour, when my server could download it in a few minutes...

Modifié par Olblach, 28 octobre 2010 - 12:32 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

Ok you "don't" want to go on my PW, but you want it simple when that makes it completely simple since it just downloads what you need. Make up your mind since it does not get simpler than the autodownloader.



If you don't go on my PW or Sea of Dragons, or just both how on earth are you going to understand how it works. Of course even with all that said, how on earth are you going to use it if you don't download it on your local machine.



This is just one project among many, the files are available, easy to get, adding more hoops you think folks should jump thru before you participate I just don't have the time for. If you want to get involved, i have invited you, IRC is where most of the discussion happens on this ( see sticky on IRC for how to get into it ) and the files are mainly via autodownloader since the vault is tempermental and cumbersome to use.



If you want things more polished you should step up to the plate and start contributing effort in making that happen yourself. At some point we will get things to that level.

[Shallina]

He wants to be able to download those normalised hak without having to use NWN2, beceause the place where he can use NWN2, isn't the place where he can download big files.

He's actually taking part of the ADL system.

I also think that to be able to download those ADL hak without NWN2 could be a great thing.

What he wishes, is a website where existing ADL hak are referenced with links to where you could download them.

It could be a sticky on those forum or at the citadel or at the NWN2 wiki, but for this system to really take root, this is indeed something necessary since all PW won't use all the ADL haks.

It's necessary to have somewhere a list with all of those who al ready exist, and where we can get them.

Modifié par Shallina, 28 octobre 2010 - 01:33 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

I fully understand that, however i am a PW admin first and foremost, then i do scripting for my PW which is also very public, and then this project is also being done mainly because there just is no other way to do things. In an ideal world it would have it's own website, but in an ideal world i would not be doing all this after i finish with my day job.

Most content creators will tell you that they have a ton of content which is not shared mainly because it takes a lot of time and effort just to post it where it can be used, or to polish things so they don't just create constant complaints. Those who don't do content tend to think they are hoarding things, when it just is a fact that only a portion of what is done is actually released. The downloader allows me to let people use not only that which is actually released, but also get what i am working on or just got working well enough for me to use myself.

It has to be on the vault, which like i said is a PITA to get things on, much less prepping and documenting everything to the degree you have to do, to make it usable by folks who just don't pay attention to details. Basically the hobbit hak should be on the botomy vault page where it came from, which means contacting the author and getting him to upload it, failing that it means putting up a new vault page which is just duplicating content and making the vault more confusing. Quite often the hak in question is just the content as is which is found on the vault, with parts only needed by the server or that need constant merging removed.

If you want to be involved, the people doing the work are on IRC and quite a few of them just can't stand dealing with the vitriol that so often accompanies a forum. Again what is needed is communication far more than a website which lists things, and that happens to be going on in IRC ( which has a sticky here in these forums so you can access just by going to a website ).

Quite often what you want to use is going to be content which is not ready for the ADL yet, but which is already in use by an established PW and only by communicating with everyone involved can we get content we all actually agree on, which is already in use, remember the goal is making sure we use the same content. A very simple way of communicating what we are using is to log into other PWs and use the downloader, which would allow those issues of different haks with the same name to be noticed.

What is needed is communication far more than a website or other requirements. Forums are just not fast enough, nor are the key players all on the forums. We already have IRC where this communication has been going on. The issue here is not that we don't have a place where you can just download all this content which some small group sets up, the issue is that PW admins ( and SP module authors ) need to actually work together and collaborate which is what makes this far more than what the CEP is.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 28 octobre 2010 - 02:23 .