230 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellfire_RWS]

Shallina wrote...


What he wishes, is a website where existing ADL hak are referenced with links to where you could download them.

So why not just start a public portfolio on the vault and add all ADL compliant haks to the portfolio?
Then they are all in one place and we can link to a single page.

[Shallina]

Without written reference, of what is al ready made, and where you can get it, that system will nevers work beceause module maker and PW won't have a quick access at the information.



It could be just a post on a forum here or the citadel or a super flashy website, but it need to be done.

And for each ADL hak we need the 2da used.

ADL_RWS.HAK and what RWS stuff it contain. and a 2da set for those placeable/tiles and wich line are used for it



ADL_PAINMONSTER.HAK and which monsters it contain.

apearance.2da and other 2da if needed with the line used.



Also You made an ADL pack monster, RWS made monster and a all in one RWS hak . Are RWS monster in your ADL hak ?



I am sorry, but if you want ADL to really take off and be adopted, IRC channel won't be enought.



I make my own ADL hak for some custom content that haven't been normalised yet. How do poeple will find it exist if I am not around ? They are going to make it all again wich will make all this ADL buiseness useless.



IRC is not enought for that system to be adopted.



A list of the ADL hak and with what they countain is necessary, it doesn't need to be on a fancy website. A sticky post here would be enought. But without it, no way it's going to be adopted.

[Hellfire_RWS]

Shallina wrote...
Also You made an ADL pack monster, RWS made monster and a all in one RWS hak . Are RWS monster in your ADL hak ?

My haks are the RWS haks.  And my RWS monster ADL hak is the same as pains Monster hak (Links to it)

All haks released by RWS have an ADL compliant version with seperate 2das.  If we have missed any please let us know and we will be happy to make ADL versions.

I see no need for more work in terms of new webpages or teams to keep up with this.  maybe a stickied thread in the toolset and CC forums with a list of ADL compliant haks would be sufficient.

Modifié par Hellfire_RWS, 28 octobre 2010 - 03:20 .

[dunniteowl]

By: Hellfire_RWS,

I see no need for more work in terms of new webpages or teams to keep up with this. Maybe a stickied thread in the toolset and CC forums with a list of ADL compliant haks would be sufficient.

This.

Folks I am feeling much better than I have in the last 20 or so days. I'd like to get in on IRC and discuss the Nuts and Bolts of the information we have to have 'out there' and then let's set about making it happen, shall we?

I will also happily host secondary listings and details on the Citadel for another point of contact/reference. How's that sound?

dunniteowl

[Hellfire_RWS]

I to will mirror the ADL compliant list on the RWS forums.

[painofdungeoneternal]

[quote
IRC is not enought for that system to be adopted.
[/quote]

IRC is where this is already happening, if you were to hop in and just watch the discussions that happen there and who is usually logged in, you'd notice it's a who's who of both the NWN1 and NWN2 community. Those who monitor the channel have a much better overview of what can and can't be done, and can quickly ask an expert in any given subject area if they run into problems. And the result is those who are there tend to be a lot more productive than those who are not involved.

Forums are great for discussion, putting down overall ideas, but when it comes to all the details needed to make this all work ( and the amount of collective knowledge needed to make this actually something that can be done ) you need a way of communicating which is more like a conversation. I am pretty sure the main reason the autodownloader works as well as it does as it is for this community is because grinning fool was literally plugged into everything that was going on just from being involved in the channel.

Despite opinions on how this should happen, it's in IRC where this is actually being hashed out and i don't see that changing, and it's where the major players who will actually adopt this unlike these forums. I can repeat this over and over, the most important thing it needs is communication between content creators and authors of modules ( mp and sp ), and right now this is happening in IRC. Each of us has their own large groups of players we are working for, most of whom never even read these forums, but almost everything i am doing is based on my own players requests.

So if you want to figure out how to work with those of us doing this, i'd highly recommend joining the IRC channel. At some point, in a year perhaps we likely will be further along and have an actual PW starter kit with this all a lot easier to use. ( Grinning fool was calling this Foundations )

As for a summary, i am a nuts and bolts type of guy. I don't want to be the decider of what is in or out nor do i want anyone doing that,  i only "run" the monsters department which needs a lot of scripting, blueprints and other work i've yet to get to.  Website, links, list of links, and a portfolio are all great ideas, however ideas are only good if they get done and i can tell you up front that if you want that, someone needs to step in and organize that as well as other PW admins taking the ideas here and making it so everything on the vault fits together.

Unlike NWN1 where we worked in separate groups, in NWN2 we all work together as PW admins, we share systems, and we work with SP module authors as well ( there is no difference between SP module makers and PW admins except pw's tend to be team based ). Collaboration is key to all of this, but in a way that allows each of us to do our own thing and control our own worlds content.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 28 octobre 2010 - 05:50 .

[Olblach]

Granted I end up getting some adl_ haks from your servers, I don't mind uploading a few on the vault, though i'd rather download them from the vault myself

And seriously, IRC is okay to discuss organization, but not for everyday getting a hak, or a plugin you need.

Modifié par Olblach, 28 octobre 2010 - 05:47 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

Olblach wrote...

Granted I end up getting some adl_ haks from your servers, I don't mind uploading a few on the vault, though i'd rather download them from the vault myself

And seriously, IRC is okay to discuss organization, but not for everyday getting a hak, or a plugin you need.

Well if you are not where i can make a comment that adl_XXX_hak is messed up, replace it entirely with such and such because this was wrong with it, you will end up with that issue where things get downloaded over and over due to version issues. The solution is communication or we are going to fill players hard drives up with multiple copies of the same thing again. Those who are not on IRC tend to be out of the loop so to speak.

When i catch you on irc i can show you where my blueprints for my PW are, and the scripts which i keep on the citadel. That way you can rummage thru things and find what you need. It's not organized, but then what i am doing is in a constant state of flux as i am improving it.

[Shallina]

IRC is great to get the job done, but you don't "publish" work with IRC.

You use IRC to produce something, and when it's done you write somewhere what is done and where and how you can get it. Or else this stuff will only be used by your "IRC guru" that hang in it.

I know IRC is a very powerfull tool.

But for someone that just want to do a module and be compilant, he doesn't wants to chat with "NWN and NWN2 guru", that person just wants an access to the normalised stuff that is stable.

And it's great to still have access to this while no guru are around.

If ADL_XXX isn't finished, then don't put it on the list.

Normalised stuff have value only if they are "finished".

What you said show that that you haven't thought of something :

You said your adl is normalised but you are going changing everything....

If you are going to change everything in one of your "ADL HAKS" then this hak is not an ADL hak.

When something is marked as ADL you haven't the right to change it. You have the right to do a new version of it with a new name. Or else all this ADL stuff is pointless.

Changing something that has been labelled as "normalised" make it absolutly not useable by anyone outside of your project.

Modifié par Shallina, 28 octobre 2010 - 06:09 .

[Olblach]

painofdungeoneternal wrote...


Well if you are not where i can make a comment that adl_XXX_hak is messed up, replace it entirely with such and such because this was wrong with it, you will end up with that issue where things get downloaded over and over due to version issues

Well if a file changes and is not renamed it's not for me to start with... I thought I had already been clear on that point.

[painofdungeoneternal]

I agree in principle but this entire project is not that far along.

Right now it's in trial and error phase, and if you want access to it now, you got to go to the source which is on my PW and on Sea of Dragons -- i got the idea implemented on mine, but getting it working on a roleplay and a PVP server is happening right now which are quite different. Other PW's are involved to degrees but we are subjecting our players to all the issues related to this as sea of dragons changes over completely. It's one thing to implement something, it's another thing to get it fully debugged and all the little details fixed which make it perfected so it works well for anyone and everyone. Raw content off the vault is done as is and usually needs some adjustments to ensure it does not cause issues.

If you want to implement this, you really need to work with us on IRC who are doing it, and we need to figure out which content you need, agree on how to organize it especially if it's content we are planning on using, and see if other PW admins can provide already completed clean hak files they have fine tuned. If you are not really good with custom content it means someone is going to have to really do this for you, with the understanding that the goal is supporting the unique vision of your PW instead of just supporting the vanilla faerun world which is the default.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 28 octobre 2010 - 06:19 .

[Banshe]

*coughs*



*points to last post*



Guys, the list you are looking for is one made up of links. Links directly to the CC author's vault page for that item. That means when someone goes to grab a bit of ADL compliant content, they can also vote and comment on the CC right on the author's page before downloading the files. They can look at the author's list of the hak's content and general information about the content in the "Description" that the CC artist wrote himself.

[painofdungeoneternal]

Olblach wrote...

painofdungeoneternal wrote...


Well if you are not where i can make a comment that adl_XXX_hak is messed up, replace it entirely with such and such because this was wrong with it, you will end up with that issue where things get downloaded over and over due to version issues

Well if a file changes and is not renamed it's not for me to start with... I thought I had already been clear on that point.

Yeah but your idea makes no sense, if you heard me, i said that we do a file so it is locked, but we have new files which do changes. If i did it how you describe i'd have about 500 hak files on my PW which would be largely duplicate content since i do content updates on a daily to weekly basis. This is just as bad as a single large hak, imagine if you had to attach all of those to your PW instead of the 50 or so i have now. Often the best way is in the middle instead of one extreme or another, files should not change but if an old hak is causing actual issues it needs to be replaced entirely. In practice it only happens sporadically to the cutting edge haks which are in beta mode and the issues you fear are actually completely dealt with via communication - remember if you notice something i am doing wrong you can tell me in IRC and i can fix it. Often whether to do a new hak or replace the old one is decided as a group as i ask what those using my content on what i should do.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 28 octobre 2010 - 06:28 .

[Olblach]

That's a lot of work just for a hobbit house when i can type "hobbit house" in nwvault search and get the file right away, don't you think?

[Olblach]

painofdungeoneternal wrote...


Yeah but your idea makes no sense, if you heard me, i said that we do a file so it is locked, but we have new files which do changes.

Well stop already. This is not my idea it's something called Revision Control

The only way to implement it with haks is to change their names when they change. Wish we could manage a version number inside the hak but we can't.

What's wrong with adl_hobbit.hak renamed into adl_hobbit01.hak if something changes?

[painofdungeoneternal]

Olblach wrote...

That's a lot of work just for a hobbit house when i can type "hobbit house" in nwvault search and get the file right away, don't you think?

Yeah but if you use that, you get a 2da in that hak, you have a hak which some distributors have altered, and you don't have shared content. The issue is not a single 2 meg straw like the hobbit house, it's when you have 8 gigs of content like that. By labeling it ADL it means its more than just your content, but is something which all PWs should agree to use. And if you log into my pw, then into sea of dragons, you will have it all on your hard drive.

If you look at mine it's really just what is on the vault, with some things stripped out and the hak renamed to avoid conflicts but in a way that other pws can use, i am pretty sure it did not need any changes but other content like BCK actually has corrections done by some of the PWs to correct issues in the models and did not release all the content that nytir did. I also do renaming of textures and supporting files in those haks since often content creators use very generic names. Ideally no changes need to be done but that often does not happen.

Which is why the things i've put on the vault are the BCK, RWS content, and the monster pack. I have just enough gear to make things work - but i think you understand gear can be a night mare. And it's more complicated since it should stay compatible with any adjustments existing pw's have done to avoid conflicts.

Now if the social suite just organized things so you can pick and choose what you wanted it would be a great base to start with. But it's another all or nothing affair.

[painofdungeoneternal]

Olblach wrote...

painofdungeoneternal wrote...


Yeah but your idea makes no sense, if you heard me, i said that we do a file so it is locked, but we have new files which do changes.

Well stop already. This is not my idea it's something called Revision Control

The only way to implement it with haks is to change their names when they change. Wish we could manage a version number inside the hak but we can't.

What's wrong with adl_hobbit.hak renamed into adl_hobbit01.hak if something changes?

Player has 4 megs on his hard drive instead of 2, 6 if there are 3 versions, isn't that what we want to avoid, might as well name it dex_hobbithouse.hak and sod_hobbithouse.hak.

How about i make sure you and i both update our PWs at the same time. But why on earth would anyone change that hobbit house. ( you miss the point that i do changes on just a few haks, usually as i am implementing them, once tested and vetted there is no reason to change them, i can say i edit every hak right after i put it up, just like i edit all my posts here 2-3 times before i stop revising them ).

[Shallina]

With normalised hak, when you change something in the hak you do a new hak, wich mean, if you want a new version of the hak for your PW you need to upload again the module as well with the new hak version linked.

Or else your ADL stuff is only for you, and people who complain about beeing forced to downlad 10 times the same hak will persist....

You have no right to change a normalised stuff that someone else used, and by the same process messing other works.

At the moment your ADL stuff from what you say is just a "wanabe" normalised stuff. And if it stay as a "wanabe" but not the real deal, no one is going to use it outside of your circle of poeple that don't mind changing everything every 3 weeks.

Modifié par Shallina, 28 octobre 2010 - 06:53 .

[Olblach]

Well this one is just an archive with MDB and DDS files but you got a point anyway.
However I will be interested into the adl_hobbit.hak (or whatever name you gave it) only if I am guaranteed that if it changes, its name will be modified as welL. 

I can come one day on IRC to chat with you but if you change it the next day what's good with it? If I have to come everyday to check that nothing changed then I rather make my own eptorath_hobbit.hak and problem is solved.

Modifié par Olblach, 28 octobre 2010 - 06:50 .

[kamalpoe]

Shallina wrote...
You have no right to change a normalised stuff that someone else used, and by the same process messing other works.

He does, because the PW's using it get together on IRC and decide to change. Pain's just the person doing the work. There's a tremendous amount of communication that goes on there and not here. I'd encourage people to join IRC when the relevant people are there.

I'd also encourage the naysayers to sign into Dex, and then SoD. And then tell us how it worked from a player perspective.

[Olblach]

Now about the 2DAs we probably need a 2DA merger tool, it's not something to do manually anyway.

[kamalpoe]

Olblach wrote...
Now about the 2DAs we probably need a 2DA merger tool, it's not something to do manually anyway.

It's being worked on by people in IRC. Really. No kidding.

[painofdungeoneternal]

Well if i did change it right after you left IRC i'd hope you come back at some point, and i'd come up with a plan to implement it which does not cause chaos. We do need to communicate repeatedly if we are controlling what is in effect shared content both of our PWs are using.



That hak has not been touched for a good year and a half. If you used it and it caused your game to crash due to corruption of some sort would be only reason to change it.



The ones i am changing is mainly the misc2 hak of my monster pack, which i am adding very small files to ( sefs mostly but just added the intellect devourer ) and ones which are labeled dex ( my pw's prefix which have 2da's, xml and the like which changes quite often ).



And to a large degree ALL of them are just MDB and DDS files, and a few sefs. Nothing else needs to be in these things.



Remember that your requirement is that it not be changed - which just means you won't touch a new hak until others have had a chance to give input, perhaps add tint maps or the like and broken it in. Like i said it needs a beta period, then it gets locked and no longer gets ANY changes, i don't see how what you are saying is any issue here except if you never use a hak in beta period for testing yourself you will end up noticing things no one else did when it gets locked for all time. Remember if it's getting changes the old one SHOULD be deleted as it's causing problems for players or admins.

[Shallina]

No he hasn't the right to change a normalised stuff. He has the right with everything not normalised.

But if you do something, label it as normalised, then it's no longuer yours to mess with. That's the rule, and always has been the rule so far. Don't label something as normalised when you change it after. All you have the right to do is a new version with different name.

If NVDIA destroyed their old driver each time they do new one, we wouldn't have been able to play NWN2 for 6 months....

There is a reason why "versioning" exist.

Modifié par Shallina, 28 octobre 2010 - 07:11 .

[Olblach]

kamalpoe wrote...

Olblach wrote...
Now about the 2DAs we probably need a 2DA merger tool, it's not something to do manually anyway.

It's being worked on by people in IRC. Really. No kidding.

I've seen something about it already on these forums but that's good news anyway.