230 réponses à ce sujet

[kamalpoe]

Shallina wrote...

No he hasn't the right to change a normalised stuff.

If it's broken, someone has to change it. When the PW's agree it's broken, Pain does the work.

[Olblach]

Look I can be accomodating, say you are working on a hak, you can name it in a way that makes explicit that it is subject to change, for example adl_w_monsters.hak That would mean this file can be modified until final version (adl_monsters.hak or whatever you like to name it).

If you are unsure then let them that way a few weeks until it has been tested enough. If you change something after 3 monthes then rename them.

Modifié par Olblach, 28 octobre 2010 - 07:15 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

Olblach wrote...

Now about the 2DAs we probably need a 2DA merger tool, it's not something to do manually anyway.

Quite a bit of what you are talking about is happening in IRC, only the finished things show up in forums like this. I would really recommend that you spend some time just listening to the channel and you would be able to get an idea of what is going on, what the real issues are in the PW's that are active, and it would undoubtedly reduce the amount of wasted time you are putting into your pw doing things we've already done or tried and found they were just wrong directions to begin with. There is a reason so many pw's make sure they have at least one person in channel keeping an ear to what is going on.

Of course that channel is mainly Pw admins, programmers, and content creators, this forum here is more where hte players congregate, but since you are going to be a PW admin a lot of what is going on there applies directly to you.

[painofdungeoneternal]

Olblach wrote...

Look I can be accomodating, say you are working on a hak, you can name it in a way that makes explicit that it is subject to change, for example adl_w_monsters.hak That would mean this file can be modified until final version (adl_monsters.hak or whatever you like to name it).

If you are unsure then let them that way a few weeks until it has been tested enough. If you change something after 3 monthes then rename them.

no i just give it the final name. I am not going to make all the players have 2 copies of every file because in the first week after release i notice an issue. After a few weeks unless it's a file like a misc hak ( where i put really small things ) it's going to be locked. If it does get changed and you are involved you will hear about it unless you just don't want to listen.

In that beta period everyone using it will know it might be fixed, and they should be reporting issues with that file. It's called communication and if you don't want communication none of this is going to work.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 28 octobre 2010 - 07:20 .

[Shallina]

it may not be broken for everyone.....


And by fixing it you'll break that someone work.

If you need a new version, you make a new version. and that's all.

adl_monsterhak_001.hak --> cool just what I need !!!!!!

Someone report something that could be done better in that hak. Someone corrected it.

and a new hak is produced.

But me I was fine with the old way, Actually the new way mess completly my work !!!!

in order to avoid any problem, adl_monsterhak_001.hak becommes adl_monsterhak_002.hak and poeple who need the new version update their works to it.

That's how it should be managed. You have no right to broke existing stuff. Or else you don't call it a "standard" and no one will adopt it.

IF your ADL hak is a work in progress it has to be known ! and whil eit is a work in progress it isn't a ADL hak yet.

Modifié par Shallina, 28 octobre 2010 - 07:24 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

Shallina wrote...

it may not be broken for everyone.....


And by fixing it you'll break that someone work.

If you need a new version, you make a new version. and that's all.

adl_monsterhak_001.hak --> cool just what I need !!!!!!

Someone report something that could be done better in that hak. Someone corrected it.

and a new hak is produced.

But me I was fine with the old way, Actually the new way mess completly my work !!!!

in order to avoid any problem, adl_monsterhak_001.hak becommes adl_monsterhak_002.hak and poeple who need the new version update their works to it.

That's how it should be managed. You have no right to broke existing stuff. Or else you don't call it a "standard" and no one will adopt it.

I think i know how to make this work, absolutes just don't help anything here. This is everyone working together, at some point the hak needs to be tested, if its perfect it's left as is, but it needs review by the public. Renaming it like you suggest just allows the old one to sit out on hard drives and confuse people when what is broken should be destroyed.

[Shallina]

IF your ADL hak is a work in progress it has to be known ! and while it is a work in progress it isn't a ADL hak yet.

[Olblach]

Never I will put such a hak in my PW. I'll rename it eptorath_monsters.hak and let you play with the different versions. People can clean their hak directorys, they simply cut/copy it elsewhere and copy back the files that are being downloaded.

Now if you are good at maintaining hak you know that you can make a tiny hak that would correct the bad files.

for instance monster hak:

...
some files
marsupilami.MDB
...
more files
....

then you make another hak with ONLY marsupilami.MDB and it will override the old one.
It's just a matter of organisation...

In other terms you have no valid reason to modify a hak ever once it's been released to the players.

Modifié par Olblach, 28 octobre 2010 - 07:35 .

[Hellfire_RWS]

Olblach wrote...

Never I will put such a hak in my PW. I'll rename it eptorath_monsters.hak and let you play with the different versions.

Never will I ever play on such a PW. Whats being missed here is it is in place and working on two PWs. with others converting.

Sit around and debate "what if" all you want

[Olblach]

OK Hellfire, you already said that and I took note. However changing a file without changing the name is a no no for me. We will see whose players will desert first, those who download 1 more file or those who download the same file infinitely.

Take it the way you want no hak will change on my PW without me having my word on it. If you change your hak I will flag it as unreliable and rename to avoid chaos and confusion.

As "unreliable" I don't mean it's bad I just mean it's subject to change without notice. However good designers don't change their haks they patch them with small ones. Always been like this since NWN1. If you do, you don't know the proper way to make a hak and if you don't make haks properly I would be looking for troubles by including them "AS IS" in my PW.

Modifié par Olblach, 28 octobre 2010 - 09:52 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

Shallina wrote...


IF your ADL hak is a work in progress it has to be known ! and while it is a work in progress it isn't a ADL hak yet.

Everything is a work in progress. It is never going to stop. However once a file is declared locked it won't be changed. And i have to release a hak as a beta initially without any changes in order to properly test it, just renaming it, redoing the list in the module properties, redoing the xml to delete it all can cause chaos.

As long as everyone knows a given file is new, that its not locked name changing and up for review by all PW's who want to use it, it cannot be an issue. Naming the file only helps if you are dealing with buffoons who can't understand that it's being prepped and tested.

If i change a file that is in use, it is perfectly fine if that file is small and it's communicated to all those PW's using it. If one is missed, the players can quickly communicate it. Obviously this can have issues, but the alternative is just having way too many haks so it's a royal pain to attach the actual hak and the 5 revision haks which basically double or quadruple the megs all users have to download.

But then i also am doing much smaller files, so this is only going to be resending a small file.

You have to remember this is not just a discussion about how it should work, this is something i've been working on for a year, something i beta tested, have personally helped multiple PWs get started using the autodownloader. While i do agree your concerns are things to keep an eye on, the opposite results in so many haks no admin could properly attach them all to his module.

The goal is to have one hak for a given vault page/grouping, have it be correct, and not end up with issues created by a PW attaching 4 of the 6 haks.

You should actually try downloading my entire module and then attaching to it all the haks involved, i think it might make you understand why having 4-5 correction haks for each official hak gets nutty very fast ( 4 haks per every one of my 50 would be 200 haks to attach ). Very hard to explain unless you were to do that - and even then the goal is file size, if i have 4 corrections which are 1 meg in size for a 2 meg hak,the new players are downloading 6 megs in five separate steps to get 2 megs of content. Obviously if i have to fix a 1 meg issue in a 200 meg hak i just do a new hak but sometimes it is smarter to just replace the old one.

[painofdungeoneternal]

Olblach wrote...
I just mean it's subject to change without notice. .

When did i say without notice?

I said i talk to all pw's involved, it's called communication.

[Olblach]

Then call it differently. All I ask. Your system works because people who use it log on IRC and chat with your regularly. Should it expand just a little it would crumble to dust and you know it.

So, your choice. Either you keep it confidential and give it only to the happy few who connects every day on IRC, or make it widely usable and become more strict in the naming of your haks.

painofdungeoneternal wrote...
I said i talk to all pw's involved, it's called communication.

Yes, that's the point. You rely on IRC and cannot move out of it or you system will collapse.

Modifié par Olblach, 28 octobre 2010 - 09:58 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

Olblach wrote...

Then call it differently. All I ask. Your system works because people who use it log on IRC and chat with your regularly. Should it expand just a little it would crumble to dust and you know it.

So, your choice. Either you keep it confidential and give it only to the happy few who connects every day on IRC, or make it widely usable and become more strict in the naming of your haks.

It's not widely usable yet.

It will be someday, even then the ones that are changing would not be used except to those who understand they are changing. Since i don't want to change the files unless needed, and i hope they work fine they only will be changing in this period. You will notice the things on the vault are all rather old and not changing, and i said if you go on my Pw you get the bleeding edge. But then if you don't get the latest version you also are getting things i know are broken. 

I am pretty sure they won't change until you send me a message saying they are broken and i've discussed it with the other pw admins. This is a shared collaboration, it means you have to stay involved instead of just downloading it and deciding you don't want to work it out. If you want to just grab things and not communicate that is not going to work, but then i don't see how you can manage a PW and deal with all the issues involved unless you do a lot of collaborating with outside gurus.

[Olblach]

OK here is my thought on this. Take the haks that you know won't change (without rename) and call them one way (xxx_,yyy_,adl_, whatever). Put those haks on the vault and let all PWs use them, wether or not they chat with you on IRC.



Then for the other haks, keep doing your IRC daily talk. It would be better (less confusing) if the other haks are prefixed differenlty (zzz, testadl_,candidate_)...That's not a critical point just an organisational one.



Anyway, that way you would get your project more widely known and people would stop saying ADL for Autodownloader. And since you would get vault entry for that, then you could mention that the other haks are available on IRC or available on your server.



So people like me who don't want to hear about changing files would still get what you've put on the vault and those who think they can follow the update rate will join you on IRC and get more files available.

[painofdungeoneternal]

Ok haks which are solid are on the vault right now. BCK, pains monster pack, use em.



Others are in progress on my PW.



Renaming them is out of the question, it just guarantees 2 downloads - have you ever deleted a hak from a PW. The Autodownloader does not do it and you have to do it manually. I think you just don't know enough about what i am doing to understand there is more going on then this single issue you see as the problem needing to be fixed.



However how will i know i need to fix one... It's fine that you don't want to help make this happen, but the PW's that take the haks and use them in beta period are the only ones who are going to be listened to.

[Olblach]

Yes I did remove all of my 3 years old haks last month to replace them with the social community suite. That did not take long at all.



I'm not against helping (besides I have a LOT to do, between my PW and all the sides projects) but i'm not going to help spreading chaos. The day you'll give one name to one hak then we will start talking again about this.

[kamalpoe]

Olblach wrote...
So people like me who don't want to hear about changing files would still get what you've put on the vault and those who think they can follow the update rate will join you on IRC and get more files available.

Olblach, that's whay you decried back pages ago, multiple versions of the same files with the same name. You're welcome to not use ADL and create a superior system for your PW. If it's superior, PW's will move to it.

[Olblach]

Wait until the first infinite download loop drama then we talk again about it.

[painofdungeoneternal]

well i dont think you are hearing me. I don't think we are disagreeing, i think you are not even understanding what i mean and that you don't understand what i am saying.

i just don't see how you will get the issue you are so afraid of, unless you do it on purpose. When and if it becomes a real issue i will change, but until then this actually reduces the total megs being downloaded by everyone which is the goal. You have to understand i am using this with other PW's, while you are not using no system at all and complaining about 2da, XML files and scripting system which NEVER will be something that can work and should have one file with your pw's prefix. Come on my pw and look at how it's set up, and sea of dragons has been working on integrating, but it already has a lot of shared content with me.

Lot of what i am saying it's pretty clear is not being heard from your comments, which is why we should be talking on IRC where we could sort out what we mean.

Social community suite is how many haks-it is nothing like what i am talking about? do a blank module and attach all my haks? Imagine if someone had to attach 400 haks to implement this, it just is not something a new pw admin is going to do, even if it means no duplicates.

Remember the end result is no duplicates, no redownloading the same thing over and over and minimum needed to download - no where is that in dispute, however my points are more nuanced since i've been thinking about this for a few years now. However having a rule that once a player gets it, it can never be changed is too restrictive and causes the goal of not making players redownload the same thing over and over an issue,

If it changes ALL pws have to change it who are using it, which assumes communication and if i can't do that then it would have to just be used as is. However a new hak would be posted as a trial, with the final name since the ideal is for it to just work as is, but i am very picky and will revise other peoples content if i see it has issues, results in a crazy file that is way too big -- i had some monsters which were 400 megs for instance for a single monster so if i did it how you want i'd never be able to fix a problem where the hak is too big.

This is designed soas to be simple, your ideas of version control just don't solve problems which i am dealing with. Just by working with Sea of Dragons is making sure players on both our PW's never see the issues you are, you are welcome to join but it's up to you. I am not going to waste time making how this is set up more complicated because of issues that exist with other pw's who are not using this system, i got enough to deal with as it is and need to deal with the facts of what does not work with my system instead of issues i completely avoid by having a system-- especially since you have no idea what chaos your solutions will create for both me and the end users. Hard enough getting pw admins to do an update so it won't miss a file and not yet users enter without making everyone hand edit their xml files.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 28 octobre 2010 - 11:07 .

[Olblach]

But in the real world ALL pws cannot change at the same time. They could at best take the lzmas from an external source but there is still the xml file that would need to be updated.



So one day a server admin will go on vacations or lose internet access, or just lose interest and the system will collapse because the users will start downloading infinitely. It's just a matter of time before we see that and the more PWs will use the system the probability that it happens will rise.

[Olblach]

Now if you develop a patch system that fixes the xml file after an update now you could have ALL pws update at the same time. It's not a trivial task but it's possible.

That would be an utility that would check a web page for instance:

http://adl_haks/adl_monster.xml

inside you would get the date of the latest version, and a version number

IF it has changed then
TAKE DOWN server
PATCH XML
RESTART SERVER

problem solved, you would get the lzma externally of course.

Modifié par Olblach, 28 octobre 2010 - 11:36 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

Olblach wrote...

But in the real world ALL pws cannot change at the same time. They could at best take the lzmas from an external source but there is still the xml file that would need to be updated.

So one day a server admin will go on vacations or lose internet access, or just lose interest and the system will collapse because the users will start downloading infinitely. It's just a matter of time before we see that and the more PWs will use the system the probability that it happens will rise.

In the real world this is how i do it. I have a hak which i put out - i spend the next week/month testing it and if there is an issue i fix it. After i know it's good it gets locked. During this period other pws like sea of dragons can do the same thing, and hopefully you do as well, at the end of the week we all talk again and comment on if it's wrong or good. If a pw admin loses interest his PW is dead. Many times this will happen on the beta server and not the live server if the pw has two servers.

After its out there and final, those who don't want to deal with the beta version will have the same file. Players only redownload it if it had a bug or issue,and the final result is a single file.

The idea you have about going on vacation or losing interest is a non issue since you, me and everyone will know it's beta. The file name changing is going to cause havoc, is not needed IF we communicate. I agree it's more clear but it means after its all tested it needs to be changed and resent again and the beta one deleted. I would suggest you see what happens when you delete a hak. 

Your entire assumption is baseless, is not going to happen, everyone will be well aware of if it's beta or not. I just know from experience that if you want perfection there has to be some versions, since the ADL does version control, it will fix it, and even akavit is just connecting to my pw to update his haks prior to doing his own updates. All of these are not really things which we need to add a new procedure to deal with, but to understand that you'd have to give it a shot.

[painofdungeoneternal]

Olblach wrote...

Now if you develop a patch system that fixes the xml file after an update now you could have ALL pws update at the same time. It's not a trivial task but it's possible.

I got enough to do, when people start describing things like this that have to happen my eyes glaze over. When you get on IRC i can help you manage your haks and custom content with procedures which seem to make it so things run very smoothly. At some point i need to write it all out, but it's mostly automated and lets the ADL and drop box do the work for you. Having more things which make it easier just make this far more complex than it really needs to be.

[Olblach]

You just make this system unable to run without you... Not blaming you if you think that's the only thing to do however this is not for me.

Modifié par Olblach, 29 octobre 2010 - 01:22 .