230 réponses à ce sujet

[Shallina]

Each time you make a hak elvove.



The more poeple will adopt this system, the more that IRC only buiseness will be impossible.



"OK we are ALL ready ! Change it". Sorry, but that can only work with 10 at max.

[painofdungeoneternal]

You just don't listen to things.

A hak file is in "test" mode on release. ALL those using it are testing it.

It cannot be changed in name because EVERYONE has to rename it. If you are not on IRC, Email, forums then you would not have the test hak to begin with. Then later on all those testing it report what is wrong and someone fixes it. After it's proven in use on REAL pws, then it's official and won't be changed anymore.

Some haks are just development mode, those obviously change a lot and are not being discussed.

After its official and locked things won't change. Doing versions, name changes just make there be more possible issues.

Despite your calling those on IRC some little group, if you actually knew who used it you'd realize its the folks who do the things you see on the vault, its a place where those who do the hard work of making things happen just so happen to congregate. Go on IRC and say hi to me, you might just understand this a bit better.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 29 octobre 2010 - 06:12 .

[Hellfire_RWS]

Just so you CAN understand this. Pain is not controling anything, nor do you have to talk to him to get ADL working in you Module/PW. Pain is helping get this going by doing a TON of work to make things easier for you! He is asking that those interested, drop into IRC and join the discussion and work with other Module makers and PW admins, as well as CC makers.

[Olblach]

I wish you would understand us as much as we understand you....
Say your name is John and people call you Jo. But there are other peoples whose name is Johnatan who are called Jo, and some girls too are called Jo. Would you go to the bank and say I want my balance, I'm Jo. No you say I'm John Smith and my accoint is XXXYYY123

It's the same problem with haks. 2 versions of a hak are like 2 different people. Those can be called the same in a private circle, but not in the ouside world.

If you prefer maths, you need a bijection between the hak name and the contents of the hak.

Modifié par Olblach, 29 octobre 2010 - 06:27 .

[dunniteowl]

You just don't get it. It's so obvious that both Olblach and Shallina are more vested in finding things wrong with something they don't use than to simply try it out and find out about it. If you cannot provide anything more useful than you have in the last nine pages, please, just stop talking already.

If you don't think it's going to work, well, you've made that clear. If you don't like it the way it is, sitting on the side and tossing rocks isn't going to improve anything. If you think it has potential then get off your ass and join in or shut the hell up.

I don't respond like this very often, but it's clear to me that the both of you either need to stop altogether in this discussion or for God's sake, actually use the stuff in coordination with others and find out for yourself. And I have grown extremely tired of not being listened to. We do understand what you're saying. Problem is: You're just flat out wrong. If you did things the way you claim and thought this was the best way to go, then go do it and leave this discussion. If there is a ghost's chance in hell that either one of you can stop knocking this long enough to actually see it, use it and work with it, then you could have a hand in helping to improve things.

As it is, neither of you seem all that interested in doing anything other than coming up with reasons NOT to. Okay. I get it, so does everyone else. You're not interested. So shut up all ready about it and walk away. There's no point in continuing to say the same thing over and over and not make a single attempt to hear what's being said in response.

And as to my software development skills, I have none, so there stick that in your pipe and smoke it Shallina. That has absolutely no bearing on my ability to understand what's going on. What kind of manufacturing and maintenance skills do you have? And who cares how you come by your knowledge of versioning is done? I did technical writing and worked for nearly 20 years in the business of MAKING COMPUTER CHIPS, so don't talk down to me about how little I know about versioning.

It's exactly what you've been doing all along. You are being directly insulting and that's the last time I will warn you away from doing such things. If it's a language issue, then you better get out your dicitionary and look up Conciliatory and make sure you understand when you post next time that your prhasing had better be more conciliatory.

You can make any claim you like but you'd better be able to back it up with provable FACT regarding the autodownloader and how it works before you start throwing more insults and scorn around.

I hope that I made this clear enough for you.

dunniteowl

(official moderator angry now)

[Hellfire_RWS]

Olblach wrote...

Now if you are good at maintaining hak you know that you can make a tiny hak that would correct the bad files.

for instance monster hak:

...
some files
marsupilami.MDB
...
more files
....

then you make another hak with ONLY marsupilami.MDB and it will override the old one.
It's just a matter of organisation...

In other terms you have no valid reason to modify a hak ever once it's been released to the players.

I completely understand what your saying. I just think your making a big deal about nothing. You have not tried to participate in whats goign on so all you have is what if.
What if a hak changes?
what if someone deletes something?
what if some other PW uses a different version?
Just so I understand you, based on one of your previous posts let me make and example hak you way.
ADL_RWS_SomeNewTileset.hak (initial release)
ADL_RWS_SomeNewTileset_V1.hak (Update missing model)
ADL_RWS_SomeNewTileset_V2.hak (Update missing texture)
ADL_RWS_SomeNewTileset_V3.hak  (update broken collision)
ADL_RWS_SomeNewTileset_V4hak (update broken walkmesh)
ADL_RWS_SomeNewTileset_V5hak (update another broken walkmesh)

So now take just the RWS tilesets alone and apply this to them. Your are talking over 30 haks just for tilesets. It's an extream example but you really think this is better than how we handle it now?

I understand that if I update a RWS hak, replacing the master with a new versioned number might be a good thing, but what you suggest here.. well I find it unreasonable.

[Olblach]

It's ok I understand. It's a point I'm not even considering to negociate. So I'm off of this thread.

[Hellfire_RWS]

double  post

Modifié par Hellfire_RWS, 29 octobre 2010 - 06:52 .

[Shallina]

OMG !!!!! We clearly don't want to use the normalised system and make download so much easier ! What an evil thing !!!! That's must be it !

What we wants is the system to be robust enought so we could use it when it's possible actually..... No one is complaining about things they are not interested in.

and yes hellfire it's better, beceause you'll have to download the new version anyway, even if you keep the same name.

With versionning you are sure to not destroy the work of someone who doesn't update.

Anyway at the moment there is only 2 hak that are stable. Wich mean we really can't say that a system exist yet. And for BCK many poeple use custom texture (like us at BGR), wich make it very difficult to use as ADL. (We also make heavy use of RWS stuff, I hope you saw your work in the screenshoot, it fit perfectly like it was made just for us )

Also Old Owl a moderator should know better when poeple are insulting or not. I hate when moderator start on this path :
"YOU DON't Agre with ME, SO I MOderaTOR Will BE VERY  ANGRY and WArn YOU !!!  You aren'T ALLOWED to Di sAgRee With Me !!!!"

Someone who act like this has no right to be moderator. I said it, It's crude, it's brutal, but it's the truth. Like it or not, but it's like this. Just like 1+1 = 2.

So don't threat poeple with your mighty moderator power beceause they don't agree with you, unless you want to kill the forum.

Not having skill isn't a problem, and it's not an insult, is just that "captain obvious was here".

Everyone for devellopement has adopted versionning. Should I really write all the reason for it ? There is probably more than 1 week of work to explain it all correctly, beceause there is really a huge number or reason for it....

Modifié par Shallina, 29 octobre 2010 - 07:48 .

[I_Raps]

Hellfire_RWS wrote...

I completely understand what your saying. I just think your making a big deal about nothing. You have not tried to participate in whats goign on so all you have is what if.
What if a hak changes?
what if someone deletes something?
what if some other PW uses a different version?
Just so I understand you, based on one of your previous posts let me make and example hak you way.
ADL_RWS_SomeNewTileset.hak (initial release)
ADL_RWS_SomeNewTileset_V1.hak (Update missing model)
ADL_RWS_SomeNewTileset_V2.hak (Update missing texture)
ADL_RWS_SomeNewTileset_V3.hak  (update broken collision)
ADL_RWS_SomeNewTileset_V4hak (update broken walkmesh)
ADL_RWS_SomeNewTileset_V5hak (update another broken walkmesh)

So now take just the RWS tilesets alone and apply this to them. Your are talking over 30 haks just for tilesets. It's an extream example but you really think this is better than how we handle it now?

I understand that if I update a RWS hak, replacing the master with a new versioned number might be a good thing, but what you suggest here.. well I find it unreasonable.

Jumping into this with some hesitation, as I really don't know what I'm talking about - but as an end-user, I would prefer to download ADL_RWS_SomeNewTileset_V1.hak - V5 etc. (all of them 1-2 mb apiece) and then run the handy HAK-updater utility that the PW administrator has thoughtfully provided/linked to rather than redownload the 1 gb ADL_RWS_SomeNewTileset.hak.

I really don't know who's side I'm taking if any - I'm not going to read the nine pages - but if this is a third way, I think it deserves some consideration.

[kamalpoe]

Olblach wrote...

I wish you would understand us as much as we understand you....
Say your name is John and people call you Jo. But there are other peoples whose name is Johnatan who are called Jo, and some girls too are called Jo. Would you go to the bank and say I want my balance, I'm Jo. No you say I'm John Smith and my accoint is XXXYYY123

It's the same problem with haks. 2 versions of a hak are like 2 different people. Those can be called the same in a private circle, but not in the ouside world.

If you prefer maths, you need a bijection between the hak name and the contents of the hak.

ADl is not all or nothing. It's extremely modular. If you don't want to use ADL_kamal_placeables, you don't include it. That simple. If you prefer your reskinned PW_kamal_placeables, you include that instead.

Furthermore, the PW/module maker has complete control over what resources are actually available since ADL doesn't require specific 2das and ADL haks don't include them, You and Shallina both ignored this when I pointed it out, but it shows you don't actually understand how ADL works. ADL organizes content into logical groups such as RWS_monsters Ree_monsters etc. There is no Everyones_Monsters. With ADL content is divorced from how you choose to handle implementing it. I can't repeat that enough. With ADL, you can implement content however you want. Don't want kamal_animation_x? Leave it out of your 2das. ADL just gives you presorted and prepackaged packets of paint. How you paint is up to you.

If you'd like to make things easier on yourself, ADL will provide you with a set of 2das if you'd like (and the ADL 2das respect the 2da ranges reserved on the NWN2 wiki). This is completely optional.

Let's say a hypothetical ADL_kamal_placeables hak were to be updated because it was somehow missing a texture or a new much better texture were produced. That "old module made with ADL that hasn't been updated in a year is now broken" is actually the opposite of what happens. That "Old module made with ADL that hasn't been updated in a year" gets the texture update because the ADL haks are standardized. Let's say a new model was added to ADL_kamal_placeables instead, then effect of the update on that year old module is zero.

[painofdungeoneternal]

Actually it would flip back and forth, which can be a real issue. But then there are going to be issues and in practice this is not happening. A big issue is if it's a real issue or if it's a possible issue. The real issue i am seeing is if you rename a hak you have to delete your autodownloader xml files and regenerate all your lzma files because a ghost of the old file name will never go away.



If i updated an old hak after a year it would be to either add the update to a new hak, or even better updating my pw specific hak which just has things i alone want changed. Your example of adl_kamal_placeables for example is fine if it's for your own content just for your pw, but all haks that are in use should be the exact same, and using your own hak on top will make it so you can adjust that texture without messing others up.



The issue here is that of degree, there is too much of a good thing which becomes an issue. Versioning is going on, it's just not as militant about it as being described.

[painofdungeoneternal]

I_Raps wrote...

Hellfire_RWS wrote...

I completely understand what your saying. I just think your making a big deal about nothing. You have not tried to participate in whats goign on so all you have is what if.
What if a hak changes?
what if someone deletes something?
what if some other PW uses a different version?
Just so I understand you, based on one of your previous posts let me make and example hak you way.
ADL_RWS_SomeNewTileset.hak (initial release)
ADL_RWS_SomeNewTileset_V1.hak (Update missing model)
ADL_RWS_SomeNewTileset_V2.hak (Update missing texture)
ADL_RWS_SomeNewTileset_V3.hak  (update broken collision)
ADL_RWS_SomeNewTileset_V4hak (update broken walkmesh)
ADL_RWS_SomeNewTileset_V5hak (update another broken walkmesh)

So now take just the RWS tilesets alone and apply this to them. Your are talking over 30 haks just for tilesets. It's an extream example but you really think this is better than how we handle it now?

I understand that if I update a RWS hak, replacing the master with a new versioned number might be a good thing, but what you suggest here.. well I find it unreasonable.

Jumping into this with some hesitation, as I really don't know what I'm talking about - but as an end-user, I would prefer to download ADL_RWS_SomeNewTileset_V1.hak - V5 etc. (all of them 1-2 mb apiece) and then run the handy HAK-updater utility that the PW administrator has thoughtfully provided/linked to rather than redownload the 1 gb ADL_RWS_SomeNewTileset.hak.

I really don't know who's side I'm taking if any - I'm not going to read the nine pages - but if this is a third way, I think it deserves some consideration.

The way it's set up you don't see any 1 gig haks, if they are one gig no one is going to be changing them and instead doing a version. The place where versions mess up is when you have smaller haks. The vast majority of the haks are between 25 and 100 megs, large projects with gigs of data are divided up into chunks based on how pw's are likely going to just use portions thereof.

A lot of this is just really thinking it thru. More folks involved in the discussion and chiming in with what they need on their modules and PWs just helps this. And of course i do a lot of listening. While it might seem i am "taking charge" what i am actually doing is "listening and following" what mine and other actual PWs say they need. Often each will lose perspective and see their way as the only way, i am trying to bridge the differences in the final result so the end result is somethign that does work for everyone.

[Shallina]

"i am trying to bridge the differences in the final result so the end result is somethign that does work for everyone."

And that's really great. But in the end, if it's growing like it should you'll be forced to use a stricter versionning.

Also about updating to better texture. Well sorry but in some case that won't do. Beceause all construction can't have updated texture.

Modifié par Shallina, 29 octobre 2010 - 07:54 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

no i won't - again you assume things which don't happen. If you stop arguing and come join us you could understand. I think the fact the haks i am using for this are for the most part the same date that 1.23 came out or slightly before really shows this is a non issue.

[Shallina]

At Work, when I speak about stuff like this to poeple I am working with, they all hates it, and all they think :
This guy what a pain, he doesn't understand or he wants to do to much.

After 3 months of works with them, I don't need to run after them to be "the bad guy" with their work.

They run after me and insist that I double check what they did when they have doubt.

Do you know why ? Beceause in the end I always made their life 10 times easier.

Mark my word, for that system to take off, you'll need a better versionning.

Modifié par Shallina, 29 octobre 2010 - 08:08 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

So because those you work with listen to you, i should listen to you.

Have you ever thought that those i work with listen to me as well. I wonder if there is a difference in who we are working with.

Can you perhaps hop onto IRC, we won't bite, you might actually find that even though it sounds like a "pain" it might make things easier for you. You might find after you check it out that there is some wisdom in what i am saying. This little circle i listen to, well i think you will be hard pressed to keep up with your current arguments -- if not for them there would be no downloader, no servers with 70+ players, there would not even be PW's that don't crash, nor content by RWS. 

We will not be able to discuss things really unless you understand, nor do i think you can understand unless you visit, i am pretty sure once you visit and understand the NWN2 irc channel you will realize how useful it is and why i say that is where this is being hashed out.

( there is a sticky for it in this forum here, it's hosted by Grinning Fool, and moderated by Skywing and has representatives of almost every aspect of both NWN1 and NWN2 )

I am pretty sure if you put an effort into things, we can come to understand what and how things are working and where they are not. But it does require some effort on yoru part. Again without communication nothing can work between PW's, but then that is why we had the PW admin round table, why i am involved in the forums, on the citadel and why i keep in touch with so many PW admins.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 29 octobre 2010 - 08:44 .

[Hellfire_RWS]

Not just in whats being said, but what is actually happening

Talk is cheap and anyone can spout off anything. There are people actually using this system and see how it works first hand, those are the people I listen to.

[Shallina]

The discussion is about a system that could be a normalised system for the custom content so the gamers/players won't have to download it each time a PW/module maker use it.

The top priority are clearly :

BCK -> done for the generic version as "Pain" said. (Many poeple use custom texture, so the ADL BCK, while it's cool won't be used by everyone)

Monster Pack -> a first stable pack was made.



RWS stuff. Everything is a jewel, difficult to do something really cool without it -> works in progress ?

Bouncy Rock stuff. --> works in progress ? Monster PAck ? They really got some awesomme works.

Kaedrin Pack ---> Work in progress ?

My co worker didn't listen to me at first, they started to once only when they ran into the BIG WALL I saw a long time before them. That why after they come to me now, they know that I can see a little further than them for that kind of stuff (conception).


if you keep it the way you are doing it, you'll run into a wall and  you'll be forced to change. Unless it remain "confidential to the IRC circle" and don't becommes the "normalised" stuff that would make the
life easier for everyone.

Modifié par Shallina, 29 octobre 2010 - 09:17 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

Shallina wrote...

BCK -> done for the generic version as "Pain" said. (Many poeple use custom texture, so the ADL BCK, while it's cool won't be used by everyone)

.

Mine use the generic texture as provided, however mine have the model fixes cerea2 did and it's got the blueprints and 2da's corrected. Unless you like the placeables not working right i don't see why you don't use the fixes available. If you understood what i did you would realize that using my adl haks will not cause issues if you were using the original version, except you will notice minor bugs go away, textures are the same.

If you use custom texture you just put that in your own hak and it will use that. I am doing that on my PW right now. If it's custom it does not go into the standard hak.  What you are describing would be total chaos, especially if they are using the same hak name as you get on nytir's vault page.

Of course the ones they provide use 2da's from what version, the thing pw's end up doing is fixing the 2das and causing major version issues, or not knowing that 2da is there and having total chaos on their pw with nothing working.

When i did it i asked nytir to put it on his pages just i did with hellfire, he said to just put up a new page. Since it had fixes from multiple sources and 2da fixes and new blueprints, all of which are no brainers, even the 2da ranges i used were what Nytir reserved and just never got around to doing.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 29 octobre 2010 - 09:24 .

[Shallina]

For the BCK, I got a floor fixe so the character won't walk 1 meter above (found it on the vault) , and custom texture, and probably some other fixe I found. But the difficulty is that a part is not working with SOZ while an other does. Wich mean I had great difficulty to have all the area to work with the same placeable and haks.

Modifié par Shallina, 29 octobre 2010 - 09:33 .

[kamalpoe]

Shallina wrote...

For the BCK, I got a floor fixe so the character won't walk 1 meter above (found it on the vault) , and custom texture, and probably some other fixe I found. But the difficulty is that a part is not working with SOZ while an other does. Wich mean I had great difficulty to have all the area to work with the same placeable and haks.

fixed in the ADL_BCK. Next.

[The Fred]

Woah, this is one hell of a long post and getting angry. Is everyone agreed an NWN2 CEP is not the way to go, though...? (Sorry I came to check on this post and it was like ~5 pages on, and I don't really want to read 5 pages of arguement).

[dunniteowl]

Actually Sieben, it does -- or it can. The hak loading method used for PWs can be used for SP modules as well, thus reducing redundant downloads within module files and allowing folks to get only what they require to play an SP mod. This is why I am championing this as it has the potential to literally be a game changer all the way around.

Will there have to be some adjustments? Sure there will. But that can be done over time and as new modules get made, making use of the Autodownloader and ADL compliant haks will ultimately make things much easier on the Community.

And whether or not there is that wall, I am sure that the folks actually involved can see much better from the driver's seat than the onlookers watching the car go by. If there is a wall that comes up, I am sure it won't be a surprise.

Yes, SP modules can make use of this as well and by getting involved and getting on board, the Community stands to win big.



dunniteowl