102 réponses à ce sujet

[Costin_Razvan]

I don't understand how she is a hypocrite in that situation. How is loving your warden and yet disliking the idea of an idiot getting married = to hypocritical.

[Zjarcal]

Complaining about the merchant in Lothering seems to be more based on her views on survival and how everyone else would do the same thing in his place (which for the most part would be true). Plus, the merchant is doing what he can (no matter the cost) to thrive in troubled times, something she admires.



As for Cammen and Gheyna, even if it's only a five minute time sink, for the love of God, you're not cupid, you're a Warden on a mission to recruit allies! I totally support her for disapproving of the Warden getting involved in something as silly and inconsequential as this. It IS a vomit inducing scenario.



And since you compare it to your elf's relationship with her, considering she isn't happy with herself for falling in love with the warden, I don't think calling her a hypocrite for this is fair. She admits that falling for the Warden is a mistake that both of you will regret. You could say that she "disapproves of herself" for letting herself fall for the Warden.

[Zjarcal]

dream_operator23 wrote...

As for getting Cammen and Gheyna together, my Warden does it so he can get a reward for either money or to trade with the crazy hermit. See, a totally selfish reason. Morrigan should approve.

I'd say Morrigan should only not disapprove. You're still giving Cammen a chance to reproduce!!! 

[BHRamsay]

Stupid question but, isn't there an avatar t-shirt that has the Morrigan Disapproves logo on it?

[KnightofPhoenix]

dream_operator23 wrote...
 She cannot put herself in another's position.

And do you blame her?
Living in the wilds is almost the complete opposite of living in society. For Morrigan freedom IS survival. If her freedom is taken away from say Templars, they will kill her. So if she wants to continue on living, she must remain free.

In society on the otherhand, it's by definition its members explicitly or implicitly agreeing to give up some of their freedoms for individual and collective security.  It's a concept she doesn't understand.

It's not lack of empathy I see. It's lack of understanding. Similar to Sten not understanding how a woman can fight. That doesn't mean he lacks empathy or can't imagine himself in a woman's shoes. It's because it goes against everything he's been told is the natural order of things.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 octobre 2010 - 02:14 .

[LobselVith8]

dream_operator23 wrote...

...she disapproves of my Warden getting Cammen and Gheyna together when she herself is heads over heels in love with my Dalish teenager elf. 

(OK, I am not totally serious with this post, since you know game mechanics and all.  I still think it is funny though.)

Morrigan makes it clear in an early conversation that she doesn't believe in love, and resists the feeling when she starts to fall in love with the Warden. Not to mention that she thinks the paramount importance of stopping the Blight should come first.

dream_operator23 wrote...

KoP: I understand what you are saying, and I agree to a point. Still mages are taken from their families while they are still children and then fed the Chantry line about magic and nothing but the Chantry line ever after. Plus if you try to escape you have a good chance of being named a blood mage and killed on site whether you are a child or not (see Wynne's story about her elven apprentice). I can definitely understand why the vast majority of mages would want to stay with the Circle even if they don't believe all of the Chantry's teachings. Again while Morrigan has a point, she lacks empathy here as she does in every other situation in the game. She cannot put herself in another's position.

Morrigan was raised by Flemeth; you're expecting her to understand why these mages are not resisting against an institution that she likely views as evil. Templars have tried to kill her and her mother all her life. The Chantry uses mages, has them fight their Exalted March against the Qunari but forbids them basic freedoms like marriage (in some Circles) and the right to raise their own children (that only one mage who fought at the side of the Rebel Queen and King Maric was exempt from, along with every mage who becomes a Grey Warden). Is Morrigan really supposed to have empathy for them? They turn apostates like her tranquil or outright murder them; Wynne's fourteen year old apprentice was killed by the templars. It's made clear in Witch Hunt that the Chantry is responsible for wiping out knowledge about magic, so why should she feel empathy for people who allow themselves to be enslaved by the Chantry?

dream_operator23 wrote...

One more thing...I think the "time-wasting" argument doesn't make much sense when it comes to Morrigan's disapproval of persuading the merchant in Lothering to lower his prices and to get Cammen and Gheyna together. Both of these things take like what, five minutes at the most? There is a time-wasting point to be made about saving Redcliff (I don't agree with it, but that actually does take some time). Those other two little five minute diversions? I think she could find something better to complain about time-wasting than those.

You're seeing it as a single, isolated incident instead of a habit of stopping for every kitten stuck in a tree and rescuing it instead of focusing on the threat that puts the entire nation at risk. No one knows when the Archdemon might attack; it could be in the next five minuets, or the next five days, but instead of putting that first, the Warden's decided become side-tracked with helping out particular people instead of saving everyone by stopping the Blight. Again, she's pragmatic.

dream_operator23 wrote...

Still it gets brought up as an argument against wasting time here on the boards and by Morrigan's own comments after you get him to lower his prices.

As for getting Cammen and Gheyna together, my Warden does it so he can get a reward for either money or to trade with the crazy hermit. See, a totally selfish reason. Morrigan should approve.

Because it means you get supplies that can be used in the long run; supplies that could help when fighting against darkspawn and getting the treaties in order.

I think it's a problem of game mechanics, really. A Warden should honestly be able to convince Morrigan that saving Redcliffe is a pragmatic decision - as in needing soldiers to fight in a war - but game mechanics don't allow it any more than they allow a Warden to tell Sten that his ideas about the people of Ferelden wanting to be something more than they are is not necessarily valid - especially in terms of the dwarves of Dust Town and the elves of the Alienage who honestly can't change their lot in life, unless they become Grey Wardens.

[Ryzaki]

I never understood Morrigan either. I just leave her alone to rant at camp and tell her to GTFO when she comes to me after the Landsmeet. Alistair usually hates my PC afterwards but hey. I get my happy ending. /shrug

[Sarah1281]

*suspects ignoring Morrigan may play a part in lack of understanding*

[Zjarcal]

Sarah1281 wrote...

*suspects ignoring Morrigan may play a part in lack of understanding*

*suspects you are right*

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

*suspects ignoring Morrigan may play a part in lack of understanding*

Who said I ignored her always? After my third playthrough I was tired of her. I understand her character but she's still tiresome. 

*supposes people shouldn't jump to conclusions* 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 octobre 2010 - 05:21 .

[Sarah1281]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

*suspects ignoring Morrigan may play a part in lack of understanding*

Who said I ignored her always? After my third playthrough I was tired of her. I understand her character but she's still tiresome. 

*supposes people shouldn't jump to conclusions* 

You understand her? In your previous post you said that you never understood her. And that you ignore her in camp and send her away when she proposes the dark ritual. There's jumping to conclusions and then there's responding based on what you said. If you gave out faulty or misleading information, then of course people will come to the wrong conclusions.

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

*suspects ignoring Morrigan may play a part in lack of understanding*

Who said I ignored her always? After my third playthrough I was tired of her. I understand her character but she's still tiresome. 

*supposes people shouldn't jump to conclusions* 

You understand her? In your previous post you said that you never understood her. And that you ignore her in camp and send her away when she proposes the dark ritual. There's jumping to conclusions and then there's responding based on what you said. If you gave out faulty or misleading information, then of course people will come to the wrong conclusions.

Would it be clearer if I said I understood why she acted the way she did, but not understand why she can't see the flaws in her own behavior? That said she is rather narcisstic...so I suppose I do understand her.

I apologize for jumping on that. I'm just so sick of hearing people go "Oh you don't like character X because you don't understand character X!" I kind of gave up on her after my male Warden got Morrigan dumping him the day before the final battle. Didn't help that with her the dialogue is more limited than it usually is. I couldn't even tell her I was trying to help her. The game just assumed I was being a douche. 

And I do find her to be hypocritical. She's all about rushing until it's time to deal with her problems. Then it's A-OK for the Warden to go fight her abomination mother who may or may not rip him to pieces. <_<
She's all about free-will and individualism...as long as the Warden's doing so in a way that fits her view. 
She's all about speaking one's mind...as long as one doesn't point out the flaws in her view, or anything she doesn't agree with. 

No she won't actually attack you or anything but that Morrigan dissapproves is pretty telling. Heck I played the type of character she claims she respected: Powerful, ruthless, speaks his own mind, intelligent, pragamatic. She loathed him. Granted she approved of some of my actions. But I got so much disapproval in conversations it was hilarious. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 octobre 2010 - 05:46 .

[Myusha]

Well it's either her or you. I'd go with you if I had to choose as well. Better safe then sorry.

[LobselVith8]

Ryzaki wrote...

Would it be clearer if I said I understood why she acted the way she did, but not understand why she can't see the flaws in her own behavior? That said she is rather narcisstic...so I suppose I do understand her.

I apologize for jumping on that. I'm just so sick of hearing people go "Oh you don't like character X because you don't understand character X!" I kind of gave up on her after my male Warden got Morrigan dumping him the day before the final battle. Didn't help that with her the dialogue is more limited than it usually is. I couldn't even tell her I was trying to help her. The game just assumed I was being a douche. 

I'd agree that there are some limitations with game mechanics; I wished there were different dialogue options with Sten at times, particularly when it came to any mention of the Chant (which came up even as a Dalish or a Dwarf) or his reference to people wanting to be something other than what they are. On the other hand, despite Morrigan's disapproval for certain choices, she opens up that she's never really had a friend before, and the Warden is pretty much the first person she would regard as such.

Ryzaki wrote...

And I do find her to be hypocritical. She's all about rushing until it's time to deal with her problems. Then it's A-OK for the Warden to go fight her abomination mother who may or may not rip him to pieces. 
She's all about free-will and individualism...as long as the Warden's doing so in a way that fits her view. 
She's all about speaking one's mind...as long as one doesn't point out the flaws in her view, or anything she doesn't agree with. 

She doesn't want to die; that's hardly a character flaw. Her choices and disagreements are all about enpowering the Warden, not herself. They're choices that allow the Warden to be powerful when it comes to dealing with the Blight (that tends to take decades to resolve, based on the prior four Blights) and the Archdemon. Morrigan does have her particular viewpoint, and you actually get no disapproval from her if you had three levels in coercion and persuade her that she could have been one of the Circle mages if her mother didn't shield her from the templars, and you get less disapproval in dialogue about the Anvil if you challenge her. The other characters will similarly disapprove for choices they disagree with.

Ryzaki wrote...

No she won't actually attack you or anything but that Morrigan dissapproves is pretty telling. Heck I played the type of character she claims she respected: Powerful, ruthless, speaks his own mind, intelligent, pragamatic. She loathed him. Granted she approved of some of my actions. But I got so much disapproval in conversations it was hilarious. 

Everyone disapproves if you do something they disagree with; Morrigan is no different. I certainly didn't follow her suggestion regarding Redcliffe or the Anvil, but I could see where she was coming from. Being raised by a hard and relentless person like Flemeth is certain to define your outlook on life. However, all the characters have baggage. The way the characters change when you get a high approval with them, especially Sten, is profound given how they can initially react towards the Warden. The change in Sten when you go to Haven with low or high approval is proof of that.

[Ryzaki]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Everyone disapproves if you do something they disagree with; Morrigan is no different. I certainly didn't follow her suggestion regarding Redcliffe or the Anvil, but I could see where she was coming from. Being raised by a hard and relentless person like Flemeth is certain to define your outlook on life. However, all the characters have baggage. The way the characters change when you get a high approval with them, especially Sten, is profound given how they can initially react towards the Warden. The change in Sten when you go to Haven with low or high approval is proof of that.

*snipped for brevity*

Of course you manage to persuade her you can do that for a lot of questionable things with the other compainions. But the case is the mages were taken from their families as kids. The fact that I can't say: "Uh...hey genius. You'd be in their position too if not for you mother." and her whole "I'd rather die." when she's dancing on her mother's strings is ridiculous. 

That said. I've had this debate too often. I see where she's coming from. She's still a hypocrite and annoys the hell out of me. That said nearly everyone in the game including the PC is a hypocrite at times so I don't see why it's so shocking. 

Nothing wrong with not wanting to die. But she has no problem inflicting the same on people who've done nothing to deserve it. For no other reason than they're weaker than her. That I have a problem with. She insists they solve their own problems...and yet with her problem what does she do? Turn to you for aid. 

I get an especially vindictive pleasure out of making her beg. Like those "peasants" she hates so much before sparing her mother and giving her the book. The look on her face when she realizes what I did... 

I'm kind of "eh" on Sten. He's pretty cool how you eventually get his respect but it's so hard to get good dialogue with him. (For some reason his dialogues refuse to trigger when I drag him around D:) 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 octobre 2010 - 05:03 .

[LobselVith8]

Ryzaki wrote...

Of course you manage to persuade her you can do that for a lot of questionable things with the other compainions. But the case is the mages were taken from their families as kids. The fact that I can't say: "Uh...hey genius. You'd be in their position too if not for you mother." and her whole "I'd rather die." when she's dancing on her mother's strings is ridiculous. 

She was raised by Flemeth, she's mostly known Flemeth her whole life, and that's going to shape how she views the world. Morrigan hasn't had any interaction with people, especially given what she says about the Warden being her first friend. All of the characters have their own perspectives, and the Warden can play a role in changing those points of view. Even Sten's harsh views on mages - a product of his upbringing among the Qunari - won't change that the Warden can become his Kadan.

Ryzaki wrote...

That said. I've had this debate too often. I see where she's coming from. She's still a hypocrite and annoys the hell out of me. That said nearly everyone in the game including the PC is a hypocrite at times so I don't see why it's so shocking. 

Nothing wrong with not wanting to die. But she has no problem inflicting the same on people who've done nothing to deserve it. For no other reason than they're weaker than her. That I have a problem with. She insists they solve their own problems...and yet with her problem what does she do? Turn to you for aid. 

Except she points out she can't do it herself because Flemeth could take over her body. In missing scenes from the game (that are bugged) she actually leaves the group if you made a deal with Flemeth and didn't kill her as it concerns staying alive. Again, I don't agree with letting the Circle perish, but I can see how she would be angry that they would chose to live under a system that controls them.

Ryzaki wrote...

I'm kind of "eh" on Sten. He's pretty cool how you eventually get his respect but it's so hard to get good dialogue with him. (For some reason his dialogues refuse to trigger when I drag him around D:) 

But if you end up choosing the right dialogue options, the approvals tend to be pretty significant for Sten. It's a lot easier to get his approval up once you've played it and get a sense of his character than it is for Oghren, who does not have as many dialogue options and who you take a mandatory hit from if you don't side with Branka during the Anvil of the Void.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 21 octobre 2010 - 05:14 .

[Ryzaki]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except she points out she can't do it herself because Flemeth could take over her body. In missing scenes from the game (that are bugged) she actually leaves the group if you made a deal with Flemeth and didn't kill her as it concerns staying alive. Again, I don't agree with letting the Circle perish, but I can see how she would be angry that they would chose to live under a system that controls them.

And this doesn't go against her "they should find a way to do it themselves!" despite it being as impossible for those peasants as it was for her to fight her mother? Really? 

Actually she only leaves if you tell her. You can lie to her, give her the book with a smile on your face as she thanks you. Being a true manipulative bastard. 

No she still will leave the group if you tell her that you won't fight Flemeth. She practically begs you then you can laugh in her face and tell her no. Then she leaves. 

I'm not saying the PC should change her perspective. I just want to be able to call her out on it. I could call Sten out on it and get major disapproval (and approval in some cases) yet I can't do that with Morrigan? Or Wynne...for that matter. 

I could care less about having her be my PCs best friend. 

OH I know it's easy to get Sten's approval up. But that's only if you say the right things. I prefer getting more conversations and saying what my character would say. Seems more real to me. 

Edit: Heck most of the time people don't have to ask the PC to help them. He/She'll bust in their like a BDH and start helping. 

See. I'd like Morrigan to be a cold, intelligent, manipulative person. But that's who she thinks she is and not who she actually is. Just once I'd like my PC to tell her that. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 octobre 2010 - 05:37 .

[LobselVith8]

Ryzaki wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except she points out she can't do it herself because Flemeth could take over her body. In missing scenes from the game (that are bugged) she actually leaves the group if you made a deal with Flemeth and didn't kill her as it concerns staying alive. Again, I don't agree with letting the Circle perish, but I can see how she would be angry that they would chose to live under a system that controls them.

And this doesn't go against her "they should find a way to do it themselves!" despite it being as impossible for those peasants as it was for her to fight her mother? Really? 

The situation with Redcliffe is different. Morrigan makes the case that the Warden should focus on the imminent threat of the Blight and not on aiding the people of a single village. It's the same attitude she takes when you resolve the food dispute in Loithering. Considering these are the kind of people who typically shun Morrigan and mages like her, I don't see why anyone is surprised she has no empathy towards them. No one in this story is completely good or evil, they are all flawed. You can't become King or Queen unless you're a Human Noble, the people often criticize the idea that an elf is even a Grey Warden despite the fact that an elf stopped the last Blight, and the Denerim alienage was purged[/i] with no one giving a damn. This is a society that keeps elves in a confined space, preaches how mages are evil and has some backward attitudes towards women. Murdock himself mentions his surprise if the Warden is a woman and his added concern if the Warden is also a mage. And everyone there is human because the homes of elves who manage to get out of the alienage and don't know their place are burned down. Should Morrigan suddenly have sympathy because these villagers, who likely would kill her without hesitation if they knew she was an apostate and weren't in fear of their lives, suddenly need the help of someone they would otherwise kill? Playing as an elven mage, plenty of people make note of the race and their distrust of magic.

And the Circle is the same place where the Chantry has full rights to take your babies from you and kill you if you get out of line or if you're a scared kid and run away from the tower in fear. Cullen even admits to a mage that other templars enjoy killing mages![/i] How is she stupid? Because she enjoys her freedom? From the POV of a Dalish elf or Mage, the Chantry is a villain in an outright war responsible for a genocide against the Dales and oppression of all mages. Morrigan probably thinks that the concern to stop the Blight carries a little more weight than one single village. Again, she's pragmatic.

Ryzaki wrote...

Actually she only leaves if you tell her. You can lie to her, give her the book with a smile on your face as she thanks you. Being a true manipulative bastard. 

I meant that the book is strictly a gift item due to a bug; I know there's an unofficial mod to correct this and allow the cutscenes to take place as they were meant to - the decisions to keep the Grimore, hand it over, or tell her that Flemeth is still alive.

Ryzaki wrote...

No she still will leave the group if you tell her that you won't fight Flemeth. She practically begs you then you can laugh in her face and tell her no. Then she leaves. 

I'm not saying the PC should change her perspective. I just want to be able to call her out on it. I could call Sten out on it and get major disapproval (and approval in some cases) yet I can't do that with Morrigan? Or Wynne...for that matter. 

I think it's more an issue of her being a pragmatist than anything else. Morrigan's decisions regarding the Anvil and the blood ritual at the alienage seem to focus more on ending the Blight than anything else - both decisions stem from her being a pragmatist who thinks the Warden should be enpowered to handle the Blight and the head of the darkspawn horde, the Archdemon. Is her decision to abandon Redcliffe really similiar to her desire to keep Flemeth from stealing her body, especially when she's an active participate in helping end the Blight regardless of the Warden's decisions? And is there a reason she should care about a village of people who likely would kill her if they knew she was an apostate? You can infer from the lack of any elves that this likely isn't some haven of tolerant people where Sheriff Andy Griffin would feel right at home. Even the head of the Chantry admits her surprise that someone of elven blood would help them. Morrigan's focus is on the Blight, on stopping an outright apocolypse, and in her POV, you're being side-tracked out of sentimental reasons that have nothing to do with the ultimate goal of defeating the Archdemon. She doesn't want to help because she thinks stopping the Blight that threatens the entire country is a greater concern than one single village.  Morrigan is honest about her opinions, she always says what's on her mind, and disapproves when you lie in Stone Prisoner quest. She's pragmatic, she wants the Warden to focus on the task at hand and not on side quests that do nothing to further the goal of ending the Blight.

[Ryzaki]

LobselVith8 wrote..

The situation with Redcliffe is different. Morrigan makes the case that the Warden should focus on the imminent threat of the Blight and not on aiding the people of a single village. It's the same attitude she takes when you resolve the food dispute in Loithering. Considering these are the kind of people who typically shun Morrigan and mages like her, I don't see why anyone is surprised she has no empathy towards them. No one in this story is completely good or evil, they are all flawed. You can't become King or Queen unless you're a Human Noble, the people often criticize the idea that an elf is even a Grey Warden despite the fact that an elf stopped the last Blight, and the Denerim alienage was purged[/i] with no one giving a damn. This is a society that keeps elves in a confined space, preaches how mages are evil and has some backward attitudes towards women. Murdock himself mentions his surprise if the Warden is a woman and his added concern if the Warden is also a mage. And everyone there is human because the homes of elves who manage to get out of the alienage and don't know their place are burned down. Should Morrigan suddenly have sympathy because these villagers, who likely would kill her without hesitation if they knew she was an apostate and weren't in fear of their lives, suddenly need the help of someone they would otherwise kill? Playing as an elven mage, plenty of people make note of the race and their distrust of magic.

And that proves my point. It's okay to stop and risk your life when its her. 

And the Circle is the same place where the Chantry has full rights to take your babies from you and kill you if you get out of line or if you're a scared kid and run away from the tower in fear. Cullen even admits to a mage that other templars enjoy killing mages![/i] How is she stupid? Because she enjoys her freedom? From the POV of a Dalish elf or Mage, the Chantry is a villain in an outright war responsible for a genocide against the Dales and oppression of all mages. Morrigan probably thinks that the concern to stop the Blight carries a little more weight than one single village. Again, she's pragmatic.

Frankly the Circle may be injust...but they do protect the mages. One of my favorite parts in DA was the whole chantry thing. I didn't say she was stupid for enjoying freedom but rather from realizing that so called "weak mages" could've easily been her if her "mother" hadn't protected her. That's where her blind ignorance just makes me want to facepalm. 

And yet it's not more important than fighting her mother. THe life of one insignificant apostate. Is not more important than the blight. Yet it is to Morrigan because it's her life. That's what I was trying to say. 

I meant that the book is strictly a gift item due to a bug; I know there's an unofficial mod to correct this and allow the cutscenes to take place as they were meant to - the decisions to keep the Grimore, hand it over, or tell her that Flemeth is still alive.

Isn't there a mod that fixes that? 

I think it's more an issue of her being a pragmatist than anything else. Morrigan's decisions regarding the Anvil and the blood ritual at the alienage seem to focus more on ending the Blight than anything else - both decisions stem from her being a pragmatist who thinks the Warden should be enpowered to handle the Blight and the head of the darkspawn horde, the Archdemon. Is her decision to abandon Redcliffe really similiar to her desire to keep Flemeth from stealing her body, especially when she's an active participate in helping end the Blight regardless of the Warden's decisions? And is there a reason she should care about a village of people who likely would kill her if they knew she was an apostate? You can infer from the lack of any elves that this likely isn't some haven of tolerant people where Sheriff Andy Griffin would feel right at home. Even the head of the Chantry admits her surprise that someone of elven blood would help them. Morrigan's focus is on the Blight, on stopping an outright apocolypse, and in her POV, you're being side-tracked out of sentimental reasons that have nothing to do with the ultimate goal of defeating the Archdemon. She doesn't want to help because she thinks stopping the Blight that threatens the entire country is a greater concern than one single village.  Morrigan is honest about her opinions, she always says what's on her mind, and disapproves when you lie in Stone Prisoner quest. She's pragmatic, she wants the Warden to focus on the task at hand and not on side quests that do nothing to further the goal of ending the Blight.

If she leaves the Warden when they won't help her with Felemeth all her "blight comes first" was just a lie. She ditches you the second you refuse to help her with her problems. So much for focusing on the blight. If you refuse her ritual she ditches too. 


Morrigan's first concern is herself. No more no less. 

[Maria13]

Agreed. Morrigan is nothing but a self-centred, self-serving biatch who takes advantage of everyone she can.

[LobselVith8]

Ryzaki wrote...

And that proves my point. It's okay to stop and risk your life when its her. 

It's hardly any different than Sten trying to kill the Warden at Haven with a low disposition and accepting the idea that the Warden would find his blade, except Morrigan is advocating focusing on the treaties instead of a town that doesn't factor into stopping the Blight. If Morrigan asks for the Grimore and for assistance, it's because she's come to trust the Warden, enough that she would ask for her mother to be slain so she won't lose her body (and possibly her soul) to this ritual. Nobody here is saying that Morrigan is a saint; she's human.

Ryzaki wrote...
Frankly the Circle may be injust...but they do protect the mages. One of my favorite parts in DA was the whole chantry thing. I didn't say she was stupid for enjoying freedom but rather from realizing that so called "weak mages" could've easily been her if her "mother" hadn't protected her. That's where her blind ignorance just makes me want to facepalm. 

It's no different than when the Warden speaks to Leliana and makes her realize the racism of her views on elves, and causes her to change her outlook because nobody else bothered to.

And the Circle only protects the mages in the sense that the Chantry doesn't commit genocide against them since the mages are under their thumb. It's no surprise to me that Morrigan detests this system. Morrigan sees the Circle as a prison. Living in a system knowing that you will never be free, having no rights to your offspring, being despite and having the choice between submitting to people who hate you or having your personality turned into a turnip doesn’t seem like something Morrigan should champion. It’s this system Wynne advocates. How many were turned tranquil because mages like Wynne supported this system? I could say that makes Wynne evil. She certainly supports a system you could consider torture for any sane person. It’s this system that drives people to become blood mages, to gather as much power as possible to survive against the templars that are out to kill them. Taking someone from their family and arresting them because they have powers (like the Magi Origin says, the Magi Warden was torn from his/her family at a young age).

Morrigan knows magic that the Chantry has done its best to eliminate, and the Circle is full of people like Wynne who support the system and do nothing to change it. Wynne isn't opposed to tranquility, she doesn't argue for the Circle to be independent, she simply accepts the way things are. Morrigan loves her freedom, and looks down on people who allow themselves to be under the thumb of an oppressive regime. She knows arcane secrets that the Chantry has gone to great lengths to destroy. Even a learned mage of the Circle has never even heard of Morrigan’s shape shifting abilities because the Chantry enforces the one, true path above all else, paving over other traditions and magic, destroying untold knowledge. The Circle was created by the same person who created the Andrasiatn Chantry: Emperor Kordillus Drakon I, and as Witch Hunt reveals, the Chantry was responsible for wiping out magical knowledge for the Dalish elves.

Ryzaki wrote...

And yet it's not more important than fighting her mother. THe life of one insignificant apostate. Is not more important than the blight. Yet it is to Morrigan because it's her life. That's what I was trying to say. 

I understand what you're trying to say here, but part of the plan was for Morrigan to be pregnant with the soul of an Old God. Obviously, Morrigan wants her mother dead so she can't use this child for her macinations. That's why she asks the Warden to resolve this issue regarding Flemeth, since Flemeth gave her the dark ritual to acquire the soul of an Old God.

Ryzaki wrote...

If she leaves the Warden when they won't help her with Felemeth all her "blight comes first" was just a lie. She ditches you the second you refuse to help her with her problems. So much for focusing on the blight. If you refuse her ritual she ditches too. 

Morrigan’s ritual is simply to preserve one of the mysteries of Ferelden, something that would otherwise be lost to the world. It isn’t an archdemon but an old god without the taint. Her offer to the Warden is to preserve one of the last mysteries of Ferelden that everyone is ignorant of. It’s magnanimous of her to actually help the Warden save Ferelden when the society is structured to murder people like her. Preserving something she seems to know something about and nobody in Ferelden really knows anything about (thanks to the Chantry) is something she finds essential.

[Ryzaki]

*snipped for brevity*
Morrigan’s ritual is simply to preserve one of the mysteries of Ferelden, something that would otherwise be lost to the world. It isn’t an archdemon but an old god without the taint. Her offer to the Warden is to preserve one of the last mysteries of Ferelden that everyone is ignorant of. It’s magnanimous of her to actually help the Warden save Ferelden when the society is structured to murder people like her. Preserving something she seems to know something about and nobody in Ferelden really knows anything about (thanks to the Chantry) is something she finds essential.

...And that disproves my "It's all about her" how exactly? I already know her reasons. It doesn't make it any less self-serving. That Old God could be a negative force as easily as it could be a positive one. ...And frankly the thought of any "child" raised by Morrigan worries me. She has no grasp of basic human affection. How is she going to raise a well adjusted child? 

My point was that Morrigan is a hypocrite because she tells you to focus on the blight and not waste any time and to not place yourself in unnecessary danger. But when these things happen at her expense all of a sudden she's all for you helping her and placing your life in unnecessary danger and ignoring the blight when she does so. 

If she was so concerned about the blight she would not abandon you. The fact that she does means she holds her wishes above that of the seriousness of the blight. (Like most of your companions). Nothing special but yeah...like the rest of the cast she's a hypocrite. My HN's one too. /shrug

And the whole mages debate: The chantry is protecting them, it may not be the best way, and it may not be the way the mages want it to be but they're being protected. If the Chantry really hated them they would simply have them killed on sight. Morrigan not realizing that "Hey...maybe all mages can't deal with templars as easily as my mother did..." was a bit of a wallbanger considering she knows Flemeth isn't exactly human. 

And yes I facepalm as hard at Leliana's casual racism. But Leliana doesn't go on and on about how intelligent, clever, and well read she is. Someone who claims to know all about history should at least have read about the chantry and the mages. 

What do you think would've happened to Connor if you hadn't been there? They would've killed him. (Well...if they had managed to live. I'm sure Teagan would've killed the kid). Like they would any other mage who did such a thing. And that would spread throughout towns and cities incensing fear and eventually just being a mage would get you killed. (Heck Jowan says the moment his parents found out he was a mage they were repulsed, If not for the chantry I'm willing to bet someone would've killed him for his "safety".) 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 octobre 2010 - 07:00 .