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[LobselVith8]

Ryzaki wrote...

*snipped for brevity*
Morrigan’s ritual is simply to preserve one of the mysteries of Ferelden, something that would otherwise be lost to the world. It isn’t an archdemon but an old god without the taint. Her offer to the Warden is to preserve one of the last mysteries of Ferelden that everyone is ignorant of. It’s magnanimous of her to actually help the Warden save Ferelden when the society is structured to murder people like her. Preserving something she seems to know something about and nobody in Ferelden really knows anything about (thanks to the Chantry) is something she finds essential.

...And that disproves my "It's all about her" how exactly? I already know her reasons. It doesn't make it any less self-serving. 

My point was that Morrigan is a hypocrite because she tells you to focus on the blight and not waste any time and to not place yourself in unnecessary danger. But when these things happen at her expense all of a sudden she's all for you helping her and placing your life in unnecessary danger and ignoring the blight when she does so. 

If she was so concerned about the blight she would not abandon you. The fact that she does means she holds her wishes above that of the seriousness of the blight. (Like most of your companions). Nothing special but yeah...like the rest of the cast she's a hypocrite. My HN's one too. /shrug

And Flemeth's plans for the unborn child could potentially cause as much damage as the Blight, if not more. Obviously, Morrigan wants to prevent that by preseving the soul of an Old God and stopping her mother at the same time.

Ryzaki wrote...

And the whole mages debate: The chantry is protecting them, it may not be the best way, and it may not be the way the mages want it to be but they're being protected. If the Chantry really hated them they would simply have them killed on sight. Morrigan not realizing that "Hey...maybe all mages can't deal with templars as easily as my mother did..." was a bit of a wallbanger considering she knows Flemeth isn't exactly human. 

I'm sure Wynne's fourteen year old apprentice was being protected when templars hunted him down and tried to kill him for running away from the Circle. And given that mages are pawns of the Chantry - especially since it was mages who proved essential in the New Exalted Marches against the Qunari - they have no problem espousing how evil they are, but using them at the same time.

Ryzaki wrote...

What do you think would've happened to Connor if you hadn't been there? They would've killed him. Like they would any other mage who did such a thing. And that would spread throughout towns and cities incensing fear and eventually just being a mage would get you killed. (Heck Jowan says the moment his parents found out he was a mage they were repulsed, If not for the chantry I'm willing to bet someone would've killed him for his "safety".) 

And they sent him to a Chantry, because they followed the Andrastian Chantry that teaches how mages are cursed and responsible for the Blights. If not for the Chantry, it might be like Rivain, where mages are in leadership positions.

[LobselVith8]

Furthermore, as Genitivi's codex of the Qunari and the New Exalted Marches reveal: The greatest advantage that the Chantry-led forces had against the qunari was, in fact, the Circle of Magi. For all their technology, the qunari appeared to harbor a great hatred for all things magical. They possessed mages, but these were little better than animals kept on leashes… and none of the qunari mages possessed anywhere near the skill that the Circle’s mages had. Faced with cannons, the Chantry responded with lightning and balls of fire and it proved effective indeed.

[Ryzaki]

LobselVith8 wrote...
And Flemeth's plans for the unborn child could potentially cause as much damage as the Blight, if not more. Obviously, Morrigan wants to prevent that by preseving the soul of an Old God and stopping her mother at the same time.

Which could just as easily be solved by...wait for it...not doing the DR in the first place. If Morrigan wasn't looking out for number one she could've told the wardens beforehand. Even if they hadn't believed her at least later on she could've went: "I told you so." The fact that she doesn't, along with the fact that she abandons you for not doing the DR. Is pretty indicative that her feelings on following you lasts as long as it's to her benefit.  

I'm sure Wynne's fourteen year old apprentice was being protected when templars hunted him down and tried to kill him for running away from the Circle. And given that mages are pawns of the Chantry - especially since it was mages who proved essential in the New Exalted Marches against the Qunari - they have no problem espousing how evil they are, but using them at the same time.

Right because running away is totally not being apostate like and placing other people in danger. Totally. Because mages never turn into abominations or anything.  Or Malificar. 

The situation isn't black and white. 

Yes there are things that could've been handled better. But honestly between this and nothing I go with this. 

And they sent him to a Chantry, because they followed the Andrastian Chantry that teaches how mages are cursed and responsible for the Blights. If not for the Chantry, it might be like Rivain, where mages are in leadership positions.

And are the Rivian mages left untrained? Are they? Because in Fereldan I've seen quite a few mages turning into abominations.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 octobre 2010 - 07:07 .

[Ryzaki]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Furthermore, as Genitivi's codex of the Qunari and the New Exalted Marches reveal: The greatest advantage that the Chantry-led forces had against the qunari was, in fact, the Circle of Magi. For all their technology, the qunari appeared to harbor a great hatred for all things magical. They possessed mages, but these were little better than animals kept on leashes… and none of the qunari mages possessed anywhere near the skill that the Circle’s mages had. Faced with cannons, the Chantry responded with lightning and balls of fire and it proved effective indeed.

But the fact that they had the Circle in the first place leads to the fact that they do not hate mages. They simply don't want them harming the popluation at large. And I can't fault them for that. (Though I do wish they could lessen the leash because the leash being too tight seems to lead to as many if not more abominations than said leash being too loose.). 

[LobselVith8]

Ryzaki wrote...

Which could just as easily be solved by...wait for it...not doing the DR in the first place. If Morrigan wasn't looking out for number one she could've told the wardens beforehand. Even if they hadn't believed her at least later on she could've went: "I told you so." The fact that she doesn't, along with the fact that she abandons you for not doing the DR. Is pretty indicative that her feelings on following you lasts as long as it's to her benefit.  

Because she wants to preserve the soul of an Old God instead of leaving them all to become extinct.

Ryzaki wrote...

Right because running away is totally not being apostate like and placing other people in danger. Totally. Because mages never turn into abominations or anything.  Or Malificar. 

Right, because it's not like a fourteen year old boy would be scared or anything...

Ryzaki wrote...

The situation isn't black and white. 

Yes there are things that could've been handled better. But honestly between this and nothing I go with this. 

And I go with freedom for the mages.

Ryzaki wrote...

And are the Rivian mages left untrained? Are they? Because in Fereldan I've seen quite a few mages turning into abominations.

They certainly aren't watched over by armed and armored drug addicts.

[Dark Lilith]

morrigan reminds me of me

[Ryzaki]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Because she wants to preserve the soul of an Old God instead of leaving them all to become extinct.

And this is a good thing? She spends the whole game talking about power and freedom. She doesn't care about what affects those have on the common person. So no. She can take her OGB and kiss it goodbye because she's not getting it. 

And that still doesn't disprove the fact that she's self-serving and hypocritical. Which was the whole point of this thread. 

Right, because it's not like a fourteen year old boy would be scared or anything...  

And so they shouldn't go get him? I'm not saying the Templars should chase him down like a dog and kill him but yes. They should get him and drag him back to the tower. 

And I go with freedom for the mages.
They certainly aren't watched over by armed and armored drug addicts.

So everytime a mage decides to make a deal with a demon you wipe out the local population. Fabulous. 

The drugs, frankly I could do without. But the Templars are just as abused as the Mages are. Yet this goes most of the time unspoke in favor of "templars are evil men who hunt the mages down like dogs and kill them!" the fact that Anders is returned after being captured 4+ times is rather contrary to that.

The system needs to be fixed. Not destroyed. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 octobre 2010 - 07:23 .

[LobselVith8]

Ryzaki wrote...

And this is a good thing? She spends the whole game talking about power and freedom. She doesn't care about what affects those have on the common person. So no. She can take her OGB and kiss it goodbye because she's not getting it. 

Morrigan finds it important to save the soul of the Old God; I see no reason to disagree with her.

Ryzaki wrote...

And so they shouldn't go get him? I'm not saying the Templars should chase him down like a dog and kill him but yes. They should get him and drag him back to the tower. 

Exactly they didn't try to capture him - they tried to kill him, and nearly did.

Ryzaki wrote...

So everytime a mage decides to make a deal with a demon you wipe out the local population. Fabulous. 

Maybe it's a call for different conditions for the mages instead of Chantry oversight, where a mage can look forward to a lifetime of servitude, or losing their soul to the process of tranquility. The fact that mages who are living under this abuse would deal with dangerous magic or demons is hardly surprising; it's a sign that the Chantry oversight is conditions mages to become blood mages and abominations. As for views on the Chantry, why not ask the Dalish their opinion on the Chantry - I'm sure sending in templars because they kicked the Andrastian missionaries out of the Dales can be an argument for the Chantry trying to force its religion throughout Thedas, especially since they outlawed the elven patheon and forced the elves who came to the alienage to worship the Maker.

Ryzaki wrote...

The drugs, frankly I could do without. But the Templars are just as abused as the Mages are. Yet this goes most of the time unspoke in favor of "templars are evil men who hunt the mages down like dogs and kill them!" the fact that Anders is returned after being captured 4+ times is rather contrary to that.

The system needs to be fixed. Not destroyed. 

Rylock's desire to murder him and the Warden-Commander speaks to how templars can go over the line and abuse their authority. And Gaider has stated that the templars brought Anders back because of Irving -and only Irving - arguing that Anders was not an apostate or blood mage. Obviously, he was better than the previous First Enchanter who let the templars hunt down Wynne's apprentice.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 21 octobre 2010 - 07:30 .

[Ryzaki]

...Okay. You have no reason to disagree with someone who thinks leaving innocent people to suffer because it doesn't "help you". (And that's another thing Morrigan was so ignorant on my Warden wanted to facepalm) with the power of a god? No. Just no. She's a hypocrite and she's self-serving. That's not changing.



...and the mages bit is already going on in another thread.



Suffice to say I advocate slight change but not not destruction of the circle completely.

[LobselVith8]

Ryzaki wrote...

...Okay. You have no reason to disagree with someone who thinks leaving innocent people to suffer because it doesn't "help you". (And that's another thing Morrigan was so ignorant on my Warden wanted to facepalm) with the power of a god? No. Just no. She's a hypocrite and she's self-serving. That's not changing.

There's no indication that the baby will be enpowered with the abilities of a god, merely that it saves the soul of an Old God (and I've read someone comment that Gaider already stated that the baby will be "normal.") Regardless, I don't see her as a hypocrite for arguing to focus on the Blight, but asking for Flemeth to be dealt with before she becomes a threat.

Ryzaki wrote...

...and the mages bit is already going on in another thread.

Suffice to say I advocate slight change but not not destruction of the circle completely.

I don't adovcate the destruction of the Circle, merely its emancipation from the Chantry. Mages should be properly instructed, not imprisoned for having magical ability.

[Ryzaki]

LobselVith8 wrote...

There's no indication that the baby will be enpowered with the abilities of a god, merely that it saves the soul of an Old God (and I've read someone comment that Gaider already stated that the baby will be "normal.") Regardless, I don't see her as a hypocrite for arguing to focus on the Blight, but asking for Flemeth to be dealt with before she becomes a threat.

...So Morrigan did all of that for a normal human child? Really? Then why go on and on about said child's destiny? 

I do. She goes: "You should focus on the blight and not solve every peasant's problem we come across." Okay then! Solve your own problems Morri! 

Flemeth has done nothing threatening however. People call me paranoid for attacking Morrigan when she hasn't threatened me. Why would it be any different for attacking Flemeth? Heck Flemeth saved your life. I have no reason to attack her other than Morrigan's say so. (And that whole "dancing to her tune" conversation made me throw my hands up and say screw both of them and their manipulations). 

I don't adovcate the destruction of the Circle, merely its emancipation from the Chantry. Mages should be properly instructed, not imprisoned for having magical ability.

Ah. Then we're similar then. I think they should live in the circle until they pass they're harrowing and prove they are no threat to those around them. 

[LobselVith8]

Ryzaki wrote...

...So Morrigan did all of that for a normal human child? Really? Then why go on and on about said child's destiny? 

Maybe the same reason a Magi Warden can ask for the Circle of Ferelden to be given its freedom as the royal boon for saving Ferelden from the Blight, and then told online by Gaider that the Chantry says no.

Ryzaki wrote...

I do. She goes: "You should focus on the blight and not solve every peasant's problem we come across." Okay then! Solve your own problems Morri! 

Flemeth has done nothing threatening however. People call me paranoid for attacking Morrigan when she hasn't threatened me. Why would it be any different for attacking Flemeth? Heck Flemeth saved your life. I have no reason to attack her other than Morrigan's say so. (And that whole "dancing to her tune" conversation made me throw my hands up and say screw both of them and their manipulations). 

I think it's more of an issue that Morrigan is emotionally unexperienced. Morrigan is also the one who can mention that Connor can be saved by entering the Fade. She's also willing to go into the Fade and help Connor from the Desire Demon if the Warden asks for her help.

And Flemeth only saved the Warden because she wants the baby with the soul of an Old God.

[Sarah1281]

The chantry is protecting them,

From what, exactly? The people's hatred of mages? That comes from the Chantry. If the Chantry caused that fear (as a result of the Tevinter Imperium, true) and then 'protects' the mages from that hatred that they caused, they're not really doing a good thing. You can argue that the mages at least learn how to control their powers and about demons but private tutoring (by someone more competent than Jowan) could work just as well.

[Sarah1281]

And that still doesn't disprove the fact that she's self-serving and hypocritical. Which was the whole point of this thread.

The whole point of this thread was a joke. "Oh look, Morrigan loves my Warden but doesn't approve of setting up Cammen and Gheyna who are also in love!" The word hypocritical carries a lot of negative connotations which is why, I think, people are arguing against it. It might be a double standard for Morrigan to want to take time off of Blight-ending to save her life and not to save others, but is it really all that unreasonable for Morrigan to make an exception in her pragmatic attitude to her own life?



And about the baby...I think all we know (besides it's apparently a boy) is that he won't be tainted.

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

And that still doesn't disprove the fact that she's self-serving and hypocritical. Which was the whole point of this thread.

The whole point of this thread was a joke. "Oh look, Morrigan loves my Warden but doesn't approve of setting up Cammen and Gheyna who are also in love!" The word hypocritical carries a lot of negative connotations which is why, I think, people are arguing against it. It might be a double standard for Morrigan to want to take time off of Blight-ending to save her life and not to save others, but is it really all that unreasonable for Morrigan to make an exception in her pragmatic attitude to her own life?

And about the baby...I think all we know (besides it's apparently a boy) is that he won't be tainted.

/never said anything about the taint

I just suggesting he might not be emotionally stable because Morrigan's the one who's going to raise him. And she's not exactly a stellar example of emotional stability. 

Though yes. Now that I reread the OP that is ridculous. Morrigan refuses to admit she's in love and openly scorns anyone who does. That's not her being hypocritical that's her in my point of view being foolish. 

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...


L

The chantry is protecting them,

From what, exactly? The people's hatred of mages? That comes from the Chantry. If the Chantry caused that fear (as a result of the Tevinter Imperium, true) and then 'protects' the mages from that hatred that they caused, they're not really doing a good thing. You can argue that the mages at least learn how to control their powers and about demons but private tutoring (by someone more competent than Jowan) could work just as well.

...So Conner wouldn't have been hated if not for the Chantry? Really?  

Let's be honest. If one incident happened like that and it started getting around yes people would attack mages Chantry or no. It would be fear at its finest. Even more so since they wouldn't know why the mages would freak out. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 octobre 2010 - 08:10 .

[Ryzaki]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Maybe the same reason a Magi Warden can ask for the Circle of Ferelden to be given its freedom as the royal boon for saving Ferelden from the Blight, and then told online by Gaider that the Chantry says no.

...What does that have to do with anything? One is a request that is denied and one is preparing a child for a destiny. 

I think it's more of an issue that Morrigan is emotionally unexperienced. Morrigan is also the one who can mention that Connor can be saved by entering the Fade. She's also willing to go into the Fade and help Connor from the Desire Demon if the Warden asks for her help.

And Flemeth only saved the Warden because she wants the baby with the soul of an Old God.

You miss that Morrigan dissapproves when she's in the fade? XD

I think the only reason she goes is game mechanics. If she refused people who only had her for a mage at that point would complain. Though if she does go. Huh. Morrigan doing something nice of someone else. That's rare. 

Any mage will mention that...the PC if a mage can mention that. Game mechanics. Heck if no one else is there I think...Jowan if still alive brings it up and...who brings it up if not him? :/ 

Though I suppose one could give the reason that she cared. ...if not for the disapproval you get. 

/needs to replay. 

[LobselVith8]

Ryzaki wrote...

...So Conner wouldn't have been hated if not for the Chantry? Really?  

Let's be honest. If one incident happened like that and it started getting around yes people would attack mages Chantry or no. It would be fear at its finest. Even more so since they wouldn't know why the mages would freak out. 

Or they could turn out like the people in Rivain, who hold reverence for the "wise women," mages and refuse to convert to the Andrastian Chantry as a result, since it violates millennia of local tradition.

[Ryzaki]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

...So Conner wouldn't have been hated if not for the Chantry? Really?  

Let's be honest. If one incident happened like that and it started getting around yes people would attack mages Chantry or no. It would be fear at its finest. Even more so since they wouldn't know why the mages would freak out. 

Or they could turn out like the people in Rivain, who hold reverence for the "wise women," mages and refuse to convert to the Andrastian Chantry as a result, since it violates millennia of local tradition.

And these "wise woman" who wants to bet they teach each other how to resist demons. 

Did the Fereldan's ever have mages not apart of the chantry? (They must've...at some point...) maybe It didn't work out for them. Several forms of gov't work in some countries but not others. It could've been the same thing. 

Or maybe demons just like Fereldan. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 octobre 2010 - 08:19 .

[LobselVith8]

Ryzaki wrote...

...What does that have to do with anything? One is a request that is denied and one is preparing a child for a destiny. 

Denied after the ruler of the nation declares that it's going to happen at the end of the story.

Ryzaki wrote...

You miss that Morrigan dissapproves when she's in the fade? XD

I didn't miss that she goes to the Fade or refuses the Desire Demon's offer to bargain for the boy's soul.

[Sarah1281]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

The chantry is protecting them,

From what, exactly? The people's hatred of mages? That comes from the Chantry. If the Chantry caused that fear (as a result of the Tevinter Imperium, true) and then 'protects' the mages from that hatred that they caused, they're not really doing a good thing. You can argue that the mages at least learn how to control their powers and about demons but private tutoring (by someone more competent than Jowan) could work just as well.

...So Conner wouldn't have been hated if not for the Chantry? Really?  

Let's be honest. If one incident happened like that and it started getting around yes people would attack mages Chantry or no. It would be fear at its finest. Even more so since they wouldn't know why the mages would freak out. 

The Connor situation happened because everyone hushed up his magic and got him a secret, imcompetent, ulterior-motive-posssessing teacher. Connor didn't know enough about magic to recognize the demon (and wouldn't have made the deal without Jowan posioning Eamon). Had Isolde not had to worry about the Chantry stealing her son, she could have gotten other mages to perform the ritual. Even if they made her pay for the lyrium, she could have afforded it. Without the Chantry's harsh policies that drove Jowan and Isolde to desperation, Connor probably wouldn't have gotten possessed at all and it would have been handled much better if he had.

The Chantry has had a very strong influence on the nations of Thedas since it was founded four years before the second Blight began. The Chantry preaches that mages are to blame for the Blights and it's seeped into their culture because of the Chantry. If the Chantry-following people of Ferelden and several of the other nations didn't hate and fear mages because that's what the Chantry has drilled into their heads for generations, mages would not need to be protected from the outside world. They could still be trained and abominations could still be dealt with. If mages are attacked and sometimes killed by fearful civilians, it's kind of the Chantry's own fault. Other less-conventional Andrastian societies have mages in charge and yet they don't seem to have the problems you suggested of non-mages attacking mages anyway and abominations running rampant.

[LobselVith8]

Ryzaki wrote...

And these "wise woman" who wants to bet they teach each other how to resist demons. 

Did the Fereldan's ever have mages not apart of the chantry? (They must've...at some point...) maybe It didn't work out for them. Several forms of gov't work in some countries but not others. It could've been the same thing. 

Or maybe demons just like Fereldan. 

Actually, it seems to be a nation of mages like Wynne; according to the Codex: Rivain:


Nowhere in my travels, not in the heart of the Imperium nor the streets of Orzammar, have I felt so much an outsider as in Rivain.
The Chant of Light never truly reached the ears of these people. The years they spent under the thumb of the qunari left most of the country zealous followers of the Qun. But resistance to the Chant goes deeper than the Qunari War. The Rivaini refuse to be parted from their seers, wise women who are in fact hedge mages, communicating with spirits and actually allowing themselves to become possessed. The Chantry prohibition against such magical practices violates millennia of local tradition.

--From In Pursuit of Knowledge: The Travels of A Chantry Scholar, by Brother Genitivi

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

 From what, exactly? The people's hatred of mages? That comes from the Chantry. If the Chantry caused that fear (as a result of the Tevinter Imperium, true) and then 'protects' the mages from that hatred that they caused, they're not really doing a good thing. You can argue that the mages at least learn how to control their powers and about demons but private tutoring (by someone more competent than Jowan) could work just as well.

The Connor situation happened because everyone hushed up his magic and got him a secret, imcompetent, ulterior-motive-posssessing teacher. Connor didn't know enough about magic to recognize the demon (and wouldn't have made the deal without Jowan posioning Eamon). Had Isolde not had to worry about the Chantry stealing her son, she could have gotten other mages to perform the ritual. Even if they made her pay for the lyrium, she could have afforded it. Without the Chantry's harsh policies that drove Jowan and Isolde to desperation, Connor probably wouldn't have gotten possessed at all and it would have been handled much better if he had. 

The Chantry has had a very strong influence on the nations of Thedas since it was founded four years before the second Blight began. The Chantry preaches that mages are to blame for the Blights and it's seeped into their culture because of the Chantry. If the Chantry-following people of Ferelden and several of the other nations didn't hate and fear mages because that's what the Chantry has drilled into their heads for generations, mages would not need to be protected from the outside world. They could still be trained and abominations could still be dealt with. If mages are attacked and sometimes killed by fearful civilians, it's kind of the Chantry's own fault. Other less-conventional Andrastian societies have mages in charge and yet they don't seem to have the problems you suggested of non-mages attacking mages anyway and abominations running rampant.

The thing is we only have Codex entries on the subject. We're not actually there like Fereldan. So we don't know what flaws they may or may not have. The tower incident was supposedly rare. Yet we experienced it first hand. That colors your view. 

Still. The Chantry could use some serious reform. And maybe it would've been better for the mages to have ended up in power, but they didn't and now there's blood spilt on both sides.

I mean could'ves are nice but don't exactly solve the problems we have now. 

And how do you know civilians still wouldn't have killed mages? People will do a lot of things to shove the blame off of themselves. 

I didn't say abominations would run rampant but that it would happen. And for some strange reason news travels exceptionally fast in Fereldan.  This would lead to a fear of mages on some people's parts. Even without superstition. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 octobre 2010 - 08:39 .

[Ryzaki]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Denied after the ruler of the nation declares that it's going to happen at the end of the story.

And that has to do with a OGB...? 

I didn't miss that she goes to the Fade or refuses the Desire Demon's offer to bargain for the boy's soul.

She goes into the fade because well...she probably doesn't want to deal with the Warden and she refuses to bargin because she knows how stupid barging with demons is. She was raised by Flemeth. 

[Ryzaki]

And didn't Gaider say how the Codexs weren't exactly neutral?