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[KnightofPhoenix]

I know that the darkspawn will apparently not have a major role in DA2 like they did in DA:O. But they, like the Wardens, remain an integral part of the DA lore and setting, so I thought it might be worth discussing.

And what I wanted to discuss / speculate about is Darkspawn symbolism, in particular this:



What I found interesting is their crescent symbol. Now of course my first reaction was raising an eyebrow as the crescent is commonly associated with my religion. But of course the crescent is a symbol that long predates it and holy symbols were in fact frowned upon by the faith, so it only became associated with us when the Turks took it up.

Anyways, the crescent, in our own human history, is a very old symbol that near Eastern civilisations used, in addition to the Byzantine empire (which is how the Turks got it most likely). I think it is possible that the Crescent
might have been a Tevinter symbol in the DA setting.

Interestingly enough, the symbol of Dragon's Peak in Ferelden is this



Key word is Dragon, which we know the Tevinters admired and took interest in:

Drake's Fall codex:
"Legends speak of a place where dragons go to die. In the far south, in the lands of the barbarian tribes, it is said that a dragon at the end of her days lies down and allows the bitter cold to take her.

It is not just a legend! I have seen Drake's Fall with my own eyes, the ancient bones of these grand beasts piled atop one another. I felt the power that suffused this place and knew the Imperium would claim it.

We built a city on the bones. We delved deep into the earth, collecting what remained of the primordial dragons who were so like our Old Gods. With these bones we created staves for our magisters, armour for our warriors, and crowns for our archons. We fashioned phylacteries to hold our blood and sarcophagi to hold our bodies, and prayed they would make us immortal.

--From the writings of Archon Melos"

It is entirely possible that Dragon's Peak's symbol is a vestige of the Tevinter Imperium.

And if that is indeed the case, then the Darkspawn using the Crescent symbol might be a conscious or subconscious (more likely) attempt to identify with their past, if they are indeed originating from the Tevinter Imperium.

So questions. Was the Crescent used by the Tevinter Imperium as a symbol? Is the symbol of Dragon's Peak a vestige of the Imperium (that people don't necessarily remember as such or even think about it)?
And if that is the case, is the Darkspawn usage of the Crescent purely a coincidence because they think it looks good? Or is it something in their subconscious, or memory? 

Speculation on darkspawn psychology is interesting! ../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 octobre 2010 - 05:51 .

[Maria Caliban]

The Darkspawn don't make the statues. The Darkspawn don't make anything. Therefore, someone else made the statues, and it's probably the Tevinter Imperium.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I am not talking about the statue. About the crescent symbol which we see in several places including the deeproads, in Darskpawn encampments.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 octobre 2010 - 05:52 .

[blothulfur]

Yeah they seem to add the crescent shaped wings to the tevinter statuary, been wondering about that since I first saw it good post.

[errant_knight]

The darkspawn do seem to have a rudimentary sense of ornamentation, displaying things (and people) for effect rather than function. We also know that when changed by the Architect, they display intelligence. It seems unlikely that the application of warden blood actually changed their brain structure, so I'm assuming that no matter how mindless thay seem, there must be underlying intelligence at work. Which is creepy, because it makes their goals much more opaque than if they were mindless.
Of course we don't really know how or why the archdemon's song effects them as it does, or how that plays into their origins or any possible goals.
Do the things they display relate to their origin? Their goals? Something else? It's all very interesting.

[blothulfur]

Could the archdemons be the original tevinter mages who intruded on the black city so the darkspawn place wings on their statues as they've become dragons?

[KnightofPhoenix]

They have intelligence, which apparently is not at work because of the song. At least the song prevents individual reasoning for them. But they are not mindless. Emissaries are said to be intelligent and apparently (maybe this was retconned) can communicate with other species. At least that's what the DA wikia says.

What I am particurarily interested in is their use of symbols or at least one symbol. Symbols are generally there for effect and serve no other function. From where did they get it? And why do they use it? Do they choose to, or is it subconscious, or is the song telling them t?.

[Aeowyn]

They also ornament forges. In Return to Ostagar, at the Quartermaster camp there is a forge that has been "decorated" so to speak. If you click on it, it says something along the lines "has been decorated as if they worshipped the forge."

[Brockololly]

Good speculation!



If we assume that the crescent is somehow linked to Tevinter or dragons in general, you have to think that the darkspawn are drawn to the Old Gods, who by most accounts, are indeed High Dragons. Whether that means anything or its just some cosmetic thing the artists plopped on because it looked cool, only BioWare knows!

[KnightofPhoenix]

blothulfur wrote...

Could the archdemons be the original tevinter mages who intruded on the black city so the darkspawn place wings on their statues as they've become dragons?

Thing is, they put this crescent symbol on its own sometimes. Like in Awakening in Kal Hirol and Wending Woods.

But yes they also seem to defile statues and the like. Is it for psychological effects? OR is it like you say, a way for them to express some sort of yearning or craving that might be related to what pushes them to seek the old Gods?

[Ulous]

hmm I don't actually see those decorations as a crescent though to be honest, to me it represents two horns, which implies something demonic, but this is the great/bad thing about symbolism, it can be interpreted in many ways by many different people.

[Maria13]

Ancient horned gods, pagan, Zeus as a bull if you like...


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horned_God

Modifié par Maria13, 19 octobre 2010 - 06:29 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ulous wrote...

hmm I don't actually see those decorations as a crescent though to be honest, to me it represents two horns, which implies something demonic, but this is the great/bad thing about symbolism, it can be interpreted in many ways by many different people.

Yea and some interpret them as wings. 

So yes, it's not clear. My interpretation was crescents and that it might be related to Dragon's Peak which might be related to the Imperium. I would think that is more interesting than them just being horns to intimidate. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 octobre 2010 - 06:28 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Maria13 wrote...

Ancient horned gods, pagan, Zeus as a bull if you like...


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horned_God

Which reminded me of Flemeth in her new form. 

[Maria13]

Rather good article actually, mentions Islam, usage in sci-fi and in Morrowind!!!

[Astfgl]

blothulfur wrote...

Could the archdemons be the original tevinter mages who intruded on the black city so the darkspawn place wings on their statues as they've become dragons?

No way. Archdemons are Old Gods, who were imprisoned long before the intrudence. But considering the magisters worshiped the dragons, and since they were the first darkspawn... well, may be there is some sence in this theory. Though it seems to me the statue and the wings are Arlathan, not made by darkspawn..

[tmp7704]

Interestingly enough, one of the "darkspawn dagger" models, the one introduced in the Awakening, is also very much crescent-shaped. Which makes them pretty weird as far as weapons go but that's another story.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Maria13 wrote...

Rather good article actually, mentions Islam, usage in sci-fi and in Morrowind!!!

Only in reference to Alexander who used a horned helmet after his conquest of Egypt. It obviously doesn't consider him to be the son of Ammon. 

[Maria Caliban]

The elven statues seemed rather inhuman in form what with the spindly four arms and the distorted face. I found it odd would have as their kindly guidance to the next realm a being that looked pretty freaky.



In areas where we know elves and Tvinter intermingled, you see statues that depict humanoid forms.

[Shepard Lives]

Oooh, a speculation thread. That's refreshing. Good job my friends.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...

Interestingly enough, one of the "darkspawn dagger" models, the one introduced in the Awakening, is also very much crescent-shaped. Which makes them pretty weird as far as weapons go but that's another story.

There is also this



Found on the Darkspawn general in Amaranthine.
Of course instead of getting a serious description of the item, we get the Lamppost in winter joke. Sigh. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 octobre 2010 - 06:38 .

[blothulfur]

If you can shapeshift into a dragon and you're in a society that worships dragons wouldn't you take the next logical step and proclaim yourself a god. That would kind of account for both the first and second sin according to the chantry, but maybe i'm reading too much into it.

[Maria13]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

Rather good article actually, mentions Islam, usage in sci-fi and in Morrowind!!!

Only in reference to Alexander who used a horned helmet after his conquest of Egypt. It obviously doesn't consider him to be the son of Ammon. 

Granted: But it has good commentary on the usage of the horned iconography both to instill fear (horned helms) and to as associated with ancient deities...

[KnightofPhoenix]

blothulfur wrote...

If you can shapeshift into a dragon and you're in a society that worships dragons wouldn't you take the next logical step and proclaim yourself a god. That would kind of account for both the first and second sin according to the chantry, but maybe i'm reading too much into it.

You might be getting on to something.

Blood magic is said to originate from demons. But Old Gods can and also did teach blood magic. 
High dragons are supposed to be females. But all Old Gods are males. 

What if the Old Gods are abominations (mages and demons merged), or something more than that? And taught blood magic to Tevinter? 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 octobre 2010 - 06:41 .

[Shepard Lives]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

all Old Gods are males. 
 

Has that ever been confirmed officially, or is it just implied? I think it's merely a convention, much like a female dragon is a Dragon (while a male is a Drake) and not a Dragoness.