92 réponses à ce sujet

[blothulfur]

Demons opposing the spirits that dominated Arlathan society, Old Gods versus Elven Gods with trickster Fen'harel sitting in the middle. A damn good motive for the war between Tevinter and Elvhenan.

[KnightofPhoenix]

shepard_lives wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

all Old Gods are males. 
 

Has that ever been confirmed officially, or is it just implied? I think it's merely a convention, much like a female dragon is a Dragon (while a male is a Drake) and not a Dragoness.

Not officially confirmed no, but that's how the Tevinters saw them. They could be wrong of course. Urthemiel is apparently indeed male, unless the soul has nothing to do with gender. 

[tmp7704]

blothulfur wrote...

Demons opposing the spirits that dominated Arlathan society, Old Gods versus Elven Gods with trickster Fen'harel sitting in the middle. A damn good motive for the war between Tevinter and Elvhenan.

Except the Forgotten Ones are supposed to be gods of evil and general malice, while Tevinter gods include also these of beauty, mystery, night and silence. None of that really count as "outright evil". So it doesn't really fit.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Interesting discussion.

Phoenix when you mentioned crescents and the Turks were you referring to they're flags (ancient and modern) or from the fact that they introduced them to the rest of the Islamic world?

Because the Turkish flag of today and the Ottoman banners of yesteryear actually didn't portray crescents, It was a waning moon which represented what phase the moon was in when Constantinople finally fell to Mehmet II in 1453.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...

blothulfur wrote...

Demons opposing the spirits that dominated Arlathan society, Old Gods versus Elven Gods with trickster Fen'harel sitting in the middle. A damn good motive for the war between Tevinter and Elvhenan.

Except the Forgotten Ones are supposed to be gods of evil and general malice, while Tevinter gods include also these of beauty, mystery, night and silence. None of that really count as "outright evil". So it doesn't really fit.

Just like the Old Gods are supposedly to be these fake gods that tricked humanity and that the Maker hates 

It is entirely possible that the elves saw the old Gods as ultimate evil and the Tevinters didn't and saw them as beautiful and worthy of worship. It could fit, just as long as we take into account very different interpretations and perceptions. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Interesting discussion.
Phoenix when you mentioned crescents and the Turks were you referring to they're flags (ancient and modern) or from the fact that they introduced them to the rest of the Islamic world?
Because the Turkish flag of today and the Ottoman banners of yesteryear actually didn't portray crescents, It was a waning moon which represented what phase the moon was in when Constantinople finally fell to Mehmet II in 1453.

More like they became associated with all of Islam in the eyes of Europeans, because they had to deal with the Ottomans for many centuries. And then it was adopted after colonialism. 

And yes it's debatable why the Turks adopted the symbol, which was used by Byzantium before them. 

But that's really off-topic and besides the point, as interesting as it is.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 octobre 2010 - 07:00 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I had always thought of Darkspawn (pre-awakening) as lacking that last little push that would make them fully sentient.

They always reminded me of our much more primitive ancestors, animal cunning with a smattering of genuine intelligence.

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Just like the Old Gods are supposedly to be these fake gods that tricked humanity and that the Maker hates 

It is entirely possible that the elves saw the old Gods as ultimate evil and the Tevinters didn't and saw them as beautiful and worthy of worship. It could fit, just as long as we take into account very different interpretations and perceptions. 

Maybe, but it strikes me more like trying to squeeze the square peg into round hole simply because there's no round peg in our sight, or to make trend predictions based on just two data points -- these two groups are all we know about, but it doesn't mean they had to be related. Just as well we could be merely lacking info on these who actually were.

[errant_knight]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Interesting discussion.
Phoenix when you mentioned crescents and the Turks were you referring to they're flags (ancient and modern) or from the fact that they introduced them to the rest of the Islamic world?
Because the Turkish flag of today and the Ottoman banners of yesteryear actually didn't portray crescents, It was a waning moon which represented what phase the moon was in when Constantinople finally fell to Mehmet II in 1453.

Isn't that a crescent moon?

[blothulfur]

If Flemeth is one of these magisters freed from the taint maybe shes angling to free her brethren and reintroduce the old gods to tevinter.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

tmp7704 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Just like the Old Gods are supposedly to be these fake gods that tricked humanity and that the Maker hates 

It is entirely possible that the elves saw the old Gods as ultimate evil and the Tevinters didn't and saw them as beautiful and worthy of worship. It could fit, just as long as we take into account very different interpretations and perceptions. 

Maybe, but it strikes me more like trying to squeeze the square peg into round hole simply because there's no round peg in our sight, or to make trend predictions based on just two data points -- these two groups are all we know about, but it doesn't mean they had to be related. Just as well we could be merely lacking info on these who actually were.

Well I had always interperted the Elven gods as having many different forms (based on codex entries) Wheras the Tevinter gods were all "great dragons".

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Just like the Old Gods are supposedly to be these fake gods that tricked humanity and that the Maker hates 

It is entirely possible that the elves saw the old Gods as ultimate evil and the Tevinters didn't and saw them as beautiful and worthy of worship. It could fit, just as long as we take into account very different interpretations and perceptions. 

Maybe, but it strikes me more like trying to squeeze the square peg into round hole simply because there's no round peg in our sight, or to make trend predictions based on just two data points -- these two groups are all we know about, but it doesn't mean they had to be related. Just as well we could be merely lacking info on these who actually were.

Of course, this is all speculation. Interesting and fun, 'tis all. 

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

errant_knight wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Interesting discussion.
Phoenix when you mentioned crescents and the Turks were you referring to they're flags (ancient and modern) or from the fact that they introduced them to the rest of the Islamic world?
Because the Turkish flag of today and the Ottoman banners of yesteryear actually didn't portray crescents, It was a waning moon which represented what phase the moon was in when Constantinople finally fell to Mehmet II in 1453.

Isn't that a crescent moon?

The more commonly accepted term was "waning moon"
But yes in modern parlence it is called a crescent moon.

[In Exile]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Blood magic is said to originate from demons. But Old Gods can and also did teach blood magic. 
High dragons are supposed to be females. But all Old Gods are males. 

What if the Old Gods are abominations (mages and demons merged), or something more than that? And taught blood magic to Tevinter? 

My theory was that Flemeth was as close (if not functionally equivalent) to an old god. Some kind ancient abomination that melded with a soul in some way as to create a sort of... transcedent being.

My opinion is that the old god is an incredibly powerful fade spirit that merged with a dragon. The spirit has a unique personality, which gives you the personality of the old gods.

ETA:

I personally avoid issues of theology in DA, in the sense of speaking about the Maker or the elves' gods as being real or meaningful in any sense. We can't know that. We have no evidence for it. What we do know is that spirits and demons exist, and are the same things beyond their intentions.

Modifié par In Exile, 19 octobre 2010 - 07:32 .

[SteveGarbage]

The symbol of Tevinter, however, is not a crescent. You can see the coat of arms here ---> dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Tevinter_Imperium

It's something of an interesting theory, but my feeling was more akin to wings, ala wings of the Archdemon.

[KnightofPhoenix]

That's its symbol after it adopted the Andrastian religion. That is the symbol of the Imperial Chantry. I doubt this was its symbol when it ruled over much of Thedas before the advent of Andraste (as it's way too similar to that of the Chantry and Andraste's symbol). And even then, civilizations can have multiple symbols.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 octobre 2010 - 07:35 .

[blothulfur]

Yes but considering that coat of arms contains the flameburst symbol of Andraste and the chantry it was probably adopted after the official religion changed.

[blothulfur]

Damn ninja'd

[MortalEngines]

blothulfur wrote...

If Flemeth is one of these magisters freed from the taint maybe shes angling to free her brethren and reintroduce the old gods to tevinter.

 That's a pretty interesting theory, but, I I wouldn't say she is a magister now rather that she is a former magister. Its possible that Flemeth, with the rest of the Tevinter magister, entered the black city (assuming the Chantry is correct) but she avoided being corrupted like the rest of her brethren. Instead, she interacted with the demons/spirits there as well as the Old Gods. Perhaps it was here that she learnt her dragon form and blood magic...

hmmm....

And it could be, she's trying to convert/bring back the Old God/Dragon Cult and take over the whole of Thedas (basically, bring back the Tevinter Imperium as it was in the old days).

All these theories are so interesting.

[blothulfur]

This kind of raises the question for me of what is lyrium, yes it powers magic but what exactly is it and why does it occur more frequently the deeper you travel into the earth (where Arlathan is supposed to be). And is blood the demonic counterpart of lyrium, this excellent game raises so many questions I hope we never find all the answers.

[Addai]

SteveGarbage wrote...

The symbol of Tevinter, however, is not a crescent. You can see the coat of arms here ---> dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Tevinter_Imperium

It's something of an interesting theory, but my feeling was more akin to wings, ala wings of the Archdemon.

I don't have a screenshot atm, but some of the statuary you see in elven and Tevinter ruins shows a god that appears winged.  I'm thinking of the statue that Tamlen comments on in the Dalish origin, right before you enter the room with the mirror.  I suspect the elves were involved in the creation of the darkspawn, though haven't been able to noodle together how.  There were a lot of hints as to something darker going on in elven history, in both the Dalish origin and in Nature of the Beast.

The darkspawn ornament reminds me of this, too, in the Dalish camp in Awakening.



Anyone want to comment on the symbolism of a crucified Cailan?

Modifié par Addai67, 19 octobre 2010 - 08:13 .

[MortalEngines]

Addai67 wrote...
I'm thinking of the statue that Tamlen comments on in the Dalish origin

This one right?

Addai67 wrote...
I don't have a screenshot atm, but some of the statuary you see in elven and Tevinter ruins shows a god that appears winged.  I'm thinking of the statue that Tamlen comments on in the Dalish origin, right before you enter the room with the mirror. I suspect the elves were involved in the creation of the darkspawn, though haven't been able to noodle together how.   There were a lot of hints as to something darker going on in elven history, in both the Dalish origin and in Nature of the Beast.

The darkspawn ornament reminds me of this, too, in the Dalish camp in Awakening.

Seeing as how darkspawn have been known to inhibit Dalish ruins (due to the pesky mirrors) it's not a stretch to say most, if not all darkspawn 'ornaments' are actually stolen from Dalish or Tevinter ruins. Seeing as how many of these ruins are in caves underground, where darkspawn have access to and have been known to inhibit. Whether this is because of a 'subconscience' need to use these statues like KoP suggested...well that remains to be seen.

However, I have no doubt that Elves and their 'gods' as well as the Tevinter 'gods' both had something to do with darkspawn creation. Actually, I'm unsure whether the maker is in the equation at all. For all we known, the long drawn out war between Elvenhenan and Tevinter might of been what caused the darkspawn.

Addai67 wrote...
There were a lot of hints as to something darker going on in elven history, in both the Dalish origin and in Nature of the Beast.

I agree 100%

Addai67 wrote...
Anyone want to comment on the symbolism of a crucified Cailan?

I would but I'm tired and it's late where I am.

[MortalEngines]

 I decided to post this in a different post rather than editing, but I discovered something interesting on DragonAge.wiki, I found the Codex Entry about Arlathan. 

"They felt no need to rush when life was endless. They worshipped their gods for months at a time. Decisions came after decades of debate, and an introduction could last for years. From time to time, our ancestors would drift into centuries-long slumber, but this was not death, for we know they wandered the Fade in dreams."

Hmm, so I guess the key to immortality lies in the fade? The more I look into it, the more the fade seems to be the most power element in the DA universe, everything that is ever incredible power can be traced to the fade. What exactly is the fade? Other than the place where we 'dream' and where spirits/demons realm. Is it the former seat of the maker? The place of the Tevinter or Elven gods? Perhaps it's part of Elvenhenden itself!

"Our ancestors proved susceptible to human diseases, and for the first time in history, elves died of natural causes."

I truly find the thought that such power elven immortals could be killed by simple illness, perhaps what they thought was 'disease' was actually Tevinter magic at work?

"What's more, those elves who spent time bartering and negotiating with humans found themselves aging, tainted by the humans' brash and impatient lives."

But if the fade is what made them immortal, then how could such things like brashness and impatience destroy that? I feel like there is something else going on here and that magic could possible be involved.

"Clans and tribes gave way to a powerful empire called Tevinter, which--and for what reason we do not know--moved to conquer Elvhenan."

This raises a question, what could Tevinter see in conquering Elvenhenan? Perhaps the power of immortality? Or did they want to destroy their gods? 

"When they breached the great city of Arlathan, our people, fearful of disease and loss of immortality, chose to flee rather than fight. With magic, demons, and even dragons at their behest, the Tevinter Imperium marched easily through Arlathan, destroying homes and galleries and amphitheaters that had stood for ages."

This part really confuses, surely, the Elves were familiar with magic and demons? After all, they were connected to the fade in a way we could only imagine, yet they are fearful of things that, I had assumed were always part of the fade. Unless the chantry is somewhat right when they say that the fade/golden city was corrupted by the Tevinter, which could mean it was from that, that demons were born. However, could that also explain why the elves were no longer immortal? Perhaps the corruption of the Tevinter mages meant that the fade's power of immortality was tainted and no longer usable?

"As to why the gods didn't answer, our people left only a legend. They say that Fen'Harel, the Dread Wolf and Lord of Tricksters, approached the ancient gods of good and evil and proposed a truce."

This confuses me too, gods of good and evil? Does that mean that the Elves worshipped both gods, regardless of weather they were 'good' or 'evil'? Or were the Tevinter 'gods' also the gods of the elves and as such, the Tevinter worshipped the 'evil' gods and the Elves, the 'good' gods.

"But the gods did not know that Fen'Harel had planned to betray them, and by the time they realized the Dread Wolf's treachery, they were sealed in their respective realms, never again to interact with the mortal world. It is a fable, to be sure, but those elves who travel the Beyond claim that Fen'Harel still roams the world of dreams, keeping watch over the gods lest they escape from their prisons."

Perhaps it is Fen'Harel that created demons and the fade as we know it, rather than the Tevinter? Maybe, the gods of Tevinter are actually disciplines of Fen'Harel? Questions, questions.

Modifié par MortalEngines, 19 octobre 2010 - 08:57 .

[errant_knight]

Addai67 wrote...

Anyone want to comment on the symbolism of a crucified Cailan?

 Only to say that there's no possible way that was accidental. I tend to think that was aimed at the player by game design and not Fereldans by darkspawn, though.

[blothulfur]

I have a weird theory that elves were at one time spirits of the fade unchanging and immortal, the first children of the maker and that Arlathan was a gateway between worlds. They took on flesh and lingered in the mortal realm too long and were trapped by their own emotions and desires and thus became all too human. No real proof though.