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Darkspawn symbolism. Question to writers and speculation


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#76
Kroaks

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blothulfur wrote...

This kind of raises the question for me of what is lyrium, yes it powers magic but what exactly is it and why does it occur more frequently the deeper you travel into the earth (where Arlathan is supposed to be). And is blood the demonic counterpart of lyrium, this excellent game raises so many questions I hope we never find all the answers.



Maybe Lyrium is connected to the old gods/archdemons?

I mean they are both under ground and have both been described as "singing".

Interesting to think about really; Lyrium sings, Archdemons/Old Gods sing, Andraste was also known for having a beautiful singing voice wasn't she?

#77
blothulfur

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Damn good point, also I have just finished up the deep roads and noticed that none of the dwarven statuary is decorated with the crescent wings they are just stuck with spears and other implements, now this may be simply an unmade art asset because there are tevinter statues down there with the wings but its worth thinking about. Are the archdemons suffused with lyrium from entering the fade physically (if they are the tevinter magisters as I theorized some posts back) and thus sing like the rock does, however thats a bit of a stretch.

#78
Jestina

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Does this thread have griffins in it?



Maybe they just like decorating things.

#79
SaddleTrampNC

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This may help:

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Elven_Pantheon

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Tevinter_Imperium

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Blood_magic

You all have some very interesting theories.  I've gotten headaches over this.  It's mentioned in the links that it was thought that one of the Elven Gods taught the Tevinter magisters Blood Magic.

And the statue at the bottom of the Circle tower is thought to be a statue of Fen'Harel (? spelling)

#80
Blacklash93

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Maria Caliban wrote...

The Darkspawn don't make the statues. The Darkspawn don't make anything. Therefore, someone else made the statues, and it's probably the Tevinter Imperium.

I believe they made shrines in Ostagar.

#81
Aeowyn

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Not sure if this has been written as this is a drive by from work, but there is one of those decorated statues in the blood mage warehouse in denerim. And no darkspawn there...

#82
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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I wonder if the crescent shapes are important to some greater entity whom we have not encountered or heard of, but will?



The crescent, being a symbol of the moon, has long been associated in esoteric studies and mystery schools as symbolizing sleep, dreams, memory, the subconcious, the feimine principle, and primal types of magic.



The most interesting aspect being dreams. The Fade itself, of course, being the place shaped by dreams and memories. Even it's inhabits are given form and purpose soley by what is reflected in the minds and memories of dreaming mortals they encounter.

#83
Blacklash93

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Flemeth has the upward crescent thing going on with her dragon form's horns, too. In the illustrated cutscene where Hawke travels to Kirkwall her art is shown with it on her head in human form as well.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 01 janvier 2011 - 09:26 .


#84
NuclearSerendipity

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This is a quite fun speculation thread. :D  With that said, I'm sorry if I take it too far, and also sorry because I'm not as familiarized with the lore of the game as would perhaps be desirable for such a thread. :P

One thing comes to mind though, and it's the way Dragons  (ADs or not) seem to communicate with other beings. I remember there was a codex entry mentioning it, the fact that Dragons don't have any detectable communication with other beings, but seem to communicate, somehow, in a psychic fashion, through their minds and into the minds of their "intelocutors".

That "ability" clearly seems to serve for more than communication purposes, though. It seems to allow for dragons to slowly take control over the minds they link themselves with, not in a direct "puppeting" manner but rather by allowing them to shape their "listeners" decisions, behavior, actions... Even when (and perhaps essentially when) they're unaware of it. In other words, this draconic telepathic power goes beyond communication, goes beyond even mere control of one's body: it also shapes the very psyche of its "victims".  Maybe I should rephrase it: the way it's done, it seems that the dragons communicate on a subconscious level. They don't send clear, direct messages or orders, but they make their victims know deep inside what they want. It's through the shaping of the subconscious that they not only communicate with, but also control others' minds. Not something entirely different from the "indoctrination" of the Reapers from ME, in a way of speaking. Maybe this very mind-power is the source and origin of blood magic itself.

And there's one important thing: the Andraste Ashes quest seems to hint that not only darkspawn can be victim of a Dragon's mind-influence, but perfectly normal humans as well. (Okay, not entirely normal, but you get my point. :P). The quest seems to hint at, IMO, the fact that when it suits Dragons, they decide to communicate with humans, through their own means, in order to reach their ends.

Still in the same quest, another thing is hinted at: Dragons - High Dragons, at least - take interest in religion. The HD in the quest seems to create a cult of his own, and get them to try to get Andraste ashes. For some reason, it seems Dragons seek to be worshipped and have a sort of fascination with religion in general.

So with all of this in mind, it seems to make perfect sense that the Tevinter Empire and the darkspawn have similar symbols, whether you take them to be a crescent moon, horns, wings or all of this together. (They are symbols, after all. :P) If the OGs shape the minds of their "worshippers", and if they really take interest in stabilishing by themselves their religion and their place as gods, it would make sense that they implanted somehow into their followers the symbol they wanted to represent their religion, and made them spread this symbol in a number of ways.  In a nutshell: it's the same symbols because it's the same religion, with the same "Gods" ruling over it and having their followers spread the same symbols.

It goes even further, though. If the darkspawn are truly Tevinter mages who got corrupted once they entered the Golden City, then there aren't truly two different followers of the  OGs: there is only, indeed the very same followers, which got transformed into tainted creatures (which, IMO, makes more sense). if that is the case,  what if the OGs planned the corruption of their followers from the very beggining? Think about it: the only way they were actually released from their cages (the ones who did, so far) were through the darkspawn listening to their song and following it to their cages. The wikia says that, according to the Chantry, the OGs first contacted the Tevinter magisters in order to get their help to be freed from their prisons: in order to achieve such, the Magisters would've tried to take over the Maker's throne, and failed. But what if everything went according to the OGs plan? What if they suggested and ultimately lead the magisters to enter the Golden City, because they knew this somehow would create a link between them and  their followers which would allow for their release? Even more, what if they knew their followers would bring a "gift" from the Golden City which would raise even further their powers? (Not sure it does that, actually, but just to think about the possibility)

Also, one last point to make: dragons, it seems, are far from being rare in Thedas. Furthermore, they all seem to be fascinated for religions and seek to be worshipped in some fashion. The Old Gods themselves were worshipped not only by the Tevinter empire, but also by other thedosians. Why assume they were the only dragons that were worshipped, though? Considering what we know so far about dragons, it's reasonable to expect that other dragons founded other religions as well - and perhaps, the conflicts depicted between the gods of one religion and another were conflicts between dragons. (why should we assume, after all, that the dragons, from all of the races, would be the only one fully united and peaceful between themselves?) It would account for the symbolic similarity between different and antagonizing religions, since the dragons would always desire the symbol of their religions to be reminiscent of their form, of what they represent as dragons. It may be that what we see in the Andraste Ashes quest is a "culture in extinction" - and maybe in extinction only within certain limits, such as Ferelden: dragons trying to found their own religion. What if in other parts of Thedas this is still a common, not to say predominant culture?

So what would be the difference between (High) Dragons and OGs? My guess is, like someone already said, that the OGs are the first abominations. But they're not humans or other race that shapeshifted themselves as dragons once they became abominations: they were dragons from the very start. As far as I remember, the codex entry in which the creation of the Maker's creatures is narrated doesn't say that, after the spirits, came immediately the humans or any other similar, humanoid race; it might be that the first "material" beings brought to existence were Dragons. Which would explain their arrogance, their wish to be worshipped by other beings, perhaps even the fact that their way to communicate is more akin to the way of the spirits than the way of other sentient material beings, since they are closer to spirits than other material beings. Even from a non-religious point of view, if the Dragons are the oldest sentient species alive, it'd make sense that the most intelligent ones (the High Dragons) would seek to be worshipped by the others and take themselves as gods. The OGs, in this case, would just be HDs that went too far in their quest for power and dominance, weaving their magics to a point that a demon finally managed to take over them. They are set on ruling the world: and maybe it's the very same plan that's been in motion from the Tevinter Empire to the creation of the darkspawn and the beggining of the Blights - which are, perhaps, to the eyes of the OGs and even the darkspawn, Holy Crusades rather than Blights.

They don't want only to rule the world, though. They want to be its very Gods. And thus they want their symbols to be spread by their followers. More than spread: they want it to be imprinted in each and every thedonian mind. Rule not only the body, but the soul. The psyche of the darkspawn is what it is because the OGs shaped it the way they wanted: and that's what they want to do with as many as they can, because they want followers (yet another reason for having the darkspawn capture, instead of killing their enemies) rather than bodies.



Of course, all of this is wild speculation and, yet again, I should advise my knowledge of the lore of the world is flawed (so I'm sorry if I made any mistake in this respect)... So let's not forget it's just an opinion, or rather, a guessing, which can be fully criticized and brought into ruins. :P Also, I'm sorry if I inadvertedly said anything that is too common-place - again, I don't have a full grasp of DA:O's lore. :pinched:

Modifié par NuclearSerendipity, 02 janvier 2011 - 01:17 .


#85
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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The idea of old gods as dragons that became abominations is certainly interesting, and would explain why they are exceptional beyond their kind, being far more than jusy high dragons.



I think that it could very well be that dragons, having existed before humans, and having highly developed, near sentient intelligence, and thus, probably access to the Fade. Since spirits and demons as we know them now are formed by what they see in the minds of human and elf dreamers, But before humans and elves dreamed, perhaps the dragons were doing it, and encountered a different type of Fade spirit all together.



I mean, given their titles (Night, Mystery, Silence, Beauty, Chains, Chaos, Fire) it sounds like concepts, much like current day spirits also mimic concepts (faith, justice, desire, pride, ect). perhaps that's what the Old Gods ultimately were: Extremely ancient, primal, but powerful Fade spirits.

#86
PsychoBlonde

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Remember those weird four-armed/clawed statues in the Fade? And how the Pride Demon looks--they may simply be trying to "correct" the statues to look more like the iconography they're used to.

#87
KnightofPhoenix

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Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I wonder if the crescent shapes are important to some greater entity whom we have not encountered or heard of, but will?

The crescent, being a symbol of the moon, has long been associated in esoteric studies and mystery schools as symbolizing sleep, dreams, memory, the subconcious, the feimine principle, and primal types of magic.

The most interesting aspect being dreams. The Fade itself, of course, being the place shaped by dreams and memories. Even it's inhabits are given form and purpose soley by what is reflected in the minds and memories of dreaming mortals they encounter.


Oh really? I didn't know that. That certainly makes it even more interesting and might support the theory that the darkspawn do, in some fashion or the other, originate from the Fade.

@ Nuclear, excellent post!

#88
AuraofMana

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Another thing is that: "Writer David Gaider has stated that the Tevinter Imperium is influenced by the real-world Byzantine Empire, heir of the Roman Empire."

Source:dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Tevinter_Imperium#Trivia

#89
ZeRoToXiN

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Kroaks wrote...

blothulfur wrote...

This kind of raises the question for me of what is lyrium, yes it powers magic but what exactly is it and why does it occur more frequently the deeper you travel into the earth (where Arlathan is supposed to be). And is blood the demonic counterpart of lyrium, this excellent game raises so many questions I hope we never find all the answers.



Maybe Lyrium is connected to the old gods/archdemons?

I mean they are both under ground and have both been described as "singing".

Interesting to think about really; Lyrium sings, Archdemons/Old Gods sing, Andraste was also known for having a beautiful singing voice wasn't she?




A very interesting point. And also, Leliana's Song and the importance of bards in Orlais.

As for lyrium, maybe it has something to do with how the Old Gods are imprisoned?

#90
Myrmedus

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Brockololly wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

MortalEngines wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
I'm thinking of the statue that Tamlen comments on in the Dalish origin

This one right?
Posted Image

Yes that's the one.  Doesn't that kind of look like the darkspawn ornaments?  Here's another shot besides the one KoP posted at the beginning of the thread.  These aren't the best, there are such monuments all over the Deep Roads for instance.
[snip]
Hoping we find out some more pieces of the puzzle in DA2 since we know the Dalish will be involved.



Hmmm...
Well, you've got these statues all over the place- this one is from the basement in the Mage Tower with all of the other relics:
Posted Image

And it sort of reminds me of the Architect's general physique,or it even seems similar (minus the wings) to this statue in the Deep Roads from this DA2 wallpaper:
Posted Image

Connection? 
I don't know if that statue is "darkspawn" necessarily- for some reason I'm thinking Tevinter, but that general motif showing up in Origins and then in the DA2 concept art above can't be coincidence can it? Or is it just something the art people thought looked cool and nothing more?


Supporting this further, those statues are actually found in the Architect's Room in Awakening. And yes, when I looked at them I thought they looked like the Architect.

Personally I don't believe the Chantry about Darkspawn, I don't think they're cursed Tevinter Mages, I think their origins far predate that. I also believe their connection to dragonkin is alot more profound than simply serving the old Gods - darkspawn themselves look draconic. I think to know more about the Darkspawn we need to know more about dragons and the Old Gods, to be honest.

Oh and on the topic of Flemeth, I definitely believe she's a dragon aswell - I don't think she shapeshifts into a dragon I think she's a dragon that shapeshifts into a human.

#91
Xaryen

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Ok I'm gonna quote a few things in an
order that makes sense to me... Tell me what you think.


“In those ages, our people called all
the land Elvhenan, which in the old language means "place of our
people." And at the center of the world stood the great city of
Arlathan, a place of knowledge and debate, where the best of the
ancient elves would go to trade knowledge, greet old friends, and
settle disputes that had gone on for millennia.“
- Codex entry:
Arlathan: Part One


This to me sounds like the fade of old
with the Golden City in it's center!


“There were seven Old Gods, great
winged dragons that were said to rule over the ancient world. The
Chantry maintains that they are responsible for the original sin,
that they turned humanity away from its true creator through deceit.
Humanity's faith faltered, and thus the Maker turned away from the
world--but not before trapping the Old Gods in eternal prisons
beneath the earth as punishment.”
-Codex entry: The Old Gods

This seems to relate to the Elven
legend of the Trickster Fen'Harel.


“In ancient times, only Fen'Harel
could walk without fear among both our gods and the Forgotten Ones,
for although he is kin to the gods of the People, the Forgotten Ones
knew of his cunning ways and saw him as one of their own.
And that is how Fen'Harel tricked them. Our gods saw him as a
brother, and they trusted him when he said that they must keep to the
heavens while he arranged a truce. And the Forgotten Ones trusted him
also when he said he would arrange for the defeat of our gods, if
only the Forgotten Ones would return to the abyss for a time. They
trusted Fen'Harel, and they were all of them betrayed. And Fen'Harel
sealed them away so they could never again walk among the People.”

- Codex entry: Fen'Harel: The Dread Wolf

Now one thing that is bothering me is the picturing of the fall of
the Golden City by the Magisters of Tevinter Imperium. It just seems
to me a bit too much like the destruction of Arlathan. The Magisters
went and destroyed in search of something. Immortality perhaps?
Wasn't it even mentioned somewhere that it was indeed forbidden
knowledge and/or immortality that they sought?


“It was golden and beautiful once, so the story goes, until a
group of powerful magister-lords from the Tevinter Imperium devised a
means of breaking in. When they did so, their presence defiled the
city, turning it black. “
- Codex entry: The Black City

Oh and from the Fall of Arlathan...

“The human world was changing even as the elves slept. Clans and
tribes gave way to a powerful empire called Tevinter, which--and for
what reason we do not know--moved to conquer Elvhenan. When they
breached the great city of Arlathan, our people, fearful of disease
and loss of immortality, chose to flee rather than fight. With magic,
demons, and even dragons at their behest, the Tevinter Imperium
marched easily through Arlathan, destroying homes and galleries and
amphitheaters that had stood for ages. Our people were corralled as
slaves, and human contact quickened their veins until every captured
elf turned mortal.”
- Codex entry: Arlathan: Part Two

Just seems too... coincidental...

The fall of a great city that was destroyed by magisters and tainted beyond recognition. That is how the chantry tells us the first darkspawn were created.. and why not. If the Golden city is Arlathan then it would make sense... The Elven lost their world, their whole inheritance when the Magisters destroyed their home. Maybe the magisters did find something there and that caused the taint? Maybe the taint has nothing to do with the Maker and the Golden City? Maybe they made a pact with the Trickster? Maybe the Trickster is the Maker of the Chantry?

As for the moon, wings, etc symbol... It's everywhere that has to
do with magic, Tevinter, darkspawn... But to know the why, we need to
know the how, when, what and where.... And for some reason.. I just
know Flemeth will be in the middle of it all!
:devil:  :?

Sorry if some (or all) of that made no sense... but I just had to post it... :blush:

Modifié par Xaryen, 20 avril 2011 - 02:04 .


#92
blothulfur

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You know in the origins intro where it shows the magisters in the ceremony that supposedly tainted them, the next scene is a tree withering and that is also the symbol found on flemeths real grimoire that morrigans looking for. This could be an indication that flemeth is indeed at the centre of it all or could explain the crescent symbols as representations of a blighted tree of life.

Yeah the rich backstory kind of digs itself into your head doesn't it.

#93
Xaryen

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Yeah. And that tree gets me even more entwined with the elven legends.

The city was supposedly in the great forest. Just wondering if there is a passage to the fade there or something similar.

As for the blighted tree. Might explain some of the uses of the crescent symbols. But not all...