150 réponses à ce sujet

[Mister Mida]

My opinion of the Reapers: Giant AI starships > Giant cyborg quids/shell fish.

[Schattenkeil]

Well, maybe it turns out in the end that the reapers are a giant fraud that Saren had thought of to influence the geth and extended when he realized you jumped at it. And the collectors had absolutely nothing to do with reapers...

[FireEye]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I disagree. An opponent whose motives you do not understand evokes more fear than one you understand. And if its motives are something as mundane as reproduction, that downsizes them to the human level, where before they were something akin to gods.

This is how I feel.

The Reapers, in ME1, profess to be beyond human understanding.  Maybe they're blowing hot air (which certainly appears to be the case as of ME2), but if they're not, then they can't be explained and the game shouldn't try... and that'd be fine by me.

It's all a matter of preference, I guess, but I preferred my mecha-Cthulu to my mecha-one-rung-up-the-food-chain-monster.

[FireEye]

Schattenkeil wrote...

Well, maybe it turns out in the end that the reapers are a giant fraud that Saren had thought of to influence the geth and extended when he realized you jumped at it. And the collectors had absolutely nothing to do with reapers...

... that would be hilarious.  XD

[Ieldra]

FireEye wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I disagree. An opponent whose motives you do not understand evokes more fear than one you understand. And if its motives are something as mundane as reproduction, that downsizes them to the human level, where before they were something akin to gods.

This is how I feel.

The Reapers, in ME1, profess to be beyond human understanding.  Maybe they're blowing hot air (which certainly appears to be the case as of ME2), but if they're not, then they can't be explained and the game shouldn't try... and that'd be fine by me.

It's all a matter of preference, I guess, but I preferred my mecha-Cthulu to my mecha-one-rung-up-the-food-chain-monster.

Yes. Only I don't think their motives should remain completely mysterious. The important thing is that we should be unable to grasp them intuitively or connect to them emotionally. I still hope for some revelation that reproduction wasn't what they were after after all. At least, not primarily.
 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 20 octobre 2010 - 10:15 .

[Foolsfolly]

Spectre_907 wrote...

I already knew the Reapers would be synthetic/organic hybrids long before ME2 was released from Saren's dialogue just before you fight him or persuade him to kill himself on the Citadel and from the husks. Saren speaks of how he "understands that the Reapers need organics" and that "the relationship is symbiotic" and how this is the evolution of organic life. I thought it was obvious that Sovereign was talking through Saren and it was preaching how merging organics with Reaper tech would be some kind of ascension. It seemed obvious to me that the Reapers use organics for something and destroy those they deemed "impure."

This is true. It was nice foreshadowing. So were the codex entries for Husks and Dragons Teeth. Reaper tech had a weird fascination with making organic matter into weird technological weirdness.

So where the Husks, Abominations, Scions, and Preatorians. You see how the human form is being shaped and combined to create new troops for the Reapers.

All in all, the Human Reaper isn't a huge jump of thought as these boards would like you to think. Perhaps the design team could have made it look a little less human-like but they properly foreshadowed that something like this was likely going on.

Also there's nothing better about not knowing their goals or motives. If they had no goal or motive then they're the shark in Jaws. They just attack at random or whenever and have no plan to do anything.

Knowing more about the Reapers is required to defeat them. You can't stop an enemy you don't understand and these games were always about how Commander Shepard stopped the Reapers. So we've learned more and more about them in each game and we'll have to learn even more in the next game. That doesn't make them lesser in fact it can set up more meaningful moments in the narrative.

Not knowing much about the Reapers would be benefictal if this were a horror game/movie. You don't really need to know why Michael Myers kills people, for example. But scaring the play has never been a part of Mass Effect. There's been shocks (playing as Joker while the crew lose to a Collector attack) but nothing scary. It's a video game where all live's problems can be solved through a number system of charm/intimidate or an assualt rifle. It's about choices. It's about having your own continuity. It's about being the big hero in a massive space opera story. Not about horror.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 20 octobre 2010 - 11:08 .

[Mister Mida]

Spectre_907 wrote...

I already knew the Reapers would be synthetic/organic hybrids long before ME2 was released from Saren's dialogue just before you fight him or persuade him to kill himself on the Citadel and from the husks. Saren speaks of how he "understands that the Reapers need organics" and that "the relationship is symbiotic" and how this is the evolution of organic life. I thought it was obvious that Sovereign was talking through Saren and it was preaching how merging organics with Reaper tech would be some kind of ascension. It seemed obvious to me that the Reapers use organics for something and destroy those they deemed "impure."

That's one way to interpret Saren's words. But you can't be sure that Sovereign was speaking through Saren. Maybe Saren was by then still free enough to justify his actions to himself and to Shepard, like many lackeys tend to do.

[Ieldra]

Foolsfolly wrote...
Also there's nothing better about not knowing their goals or motives. If they had no goal or motive then they're the shark in Jaws. They just attack at random or whenever and have no plan to do anything.

Knowing more about the Reapers is required to defeat them. You can't stop an enemy you don't understand and these games were always about how Commander Shepard stopped the Reapers. So we've learned more and more about them in each game and we'll have to learn even more in the next game. That doesn't make them lesser in fact it can set up more meaningful moments in the narrative.

Yes, but that their motives are (or seem to be at this point) as mundane as reproduction - something we can intuitively - that does lessen them. It reduces their aura of inscrutability and makes them nothing more than extremely advanced predators. 

Not knowing much about the Reapers would be benefictal if this were a horror game/movie. You don't really need to know why Michael Myers kills people, for example. But scaring the play has never been a part of Mass Effect. There's been shocks (playing as Joker while the crew lose to a Collector attack) but nothing scary. It's a video game where all live's problems can be solved through a number system of charm/intimidate or an assualt rifle. It's about choices. It's about having your own continuity. It's about being the big hero in a massive space opera story. Not about horror.

Next you're going to tell me the Reapers aren't space-Cthulhu and the body horror effects were there for our amusement. I agree that the ME story shouldn't be about horror so much. But unfortunately, there is a big horror aspect in both games. If Bioware hadn't wanted it that way, they shouldn't have put so many undead-equivalents into their games, and they shouldn't have made the "processing" of humans quite as viscerally horrific. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 20 octobre 2010 - 12:23 .

[Foolsfolly]

Yes, but that their motives are (or seem to be at this point) as mundane as reproduction - something we can intuitively - that does lessen them. It reduces their aura of inscrutability and makes them nothing more than extremely advanced predators.

Reproduction isn't mundane. It's essential to life. Besides that's the reason for the collecting of humans there's this whole subplot involving dark energy we still don't know anything about. It's highly likely that the Reaper threat and the dark energy subplot will dovetail in some way. Like if FLT drives lead to dark energy build up (space global warming basically) then the Reapers save the galaxy by destroying it and the reproduction aspect is them replacing their numbers whenever they lose a Reaper.



Just because we learn about how they reproduce and what they do does not lessen them.



Reapers aren't space-Cthulhu since Cthulhu is from space anyway. Plus he's actually unstoppable and he doesn't care about human life because it's so beneath him that he doesn't even recognize them. The horror of H.P. Lovecraft is that these big massive concepts are so bigger and horrific that their existence shapes and destroys us without them ever thinking about it. He calls the Outer Gods unthinking at one point. The Reapers have plans and they clearly think and view life in some manner.



The Thorian was a better example of Cthulhu...except it can die which is again something the real deal cannot do. Humans can never harm an Outer God.



And again, we have to understand them to defeat them. It's already a plot point with the Collector Base choice. If you keep the base you may gain way more insight into Reapers (even though I firmly believe EDI should have been extracting information the whole mission since she doesn't do anything otherwise).

[Dean_the_Young]

I don't think we can say 'the Reapers wipe out life to increase their numbers.' Increasing their numbers is just an incidental part of their cycle.



To put it in other terms, the Reapers don't kill us because they want to make us into more Reapers. If they wanted numbers, they could just cultivate farms of people to raise and Reaperfy, without stop. They wouldn't need to keep on a lookout for each cycle for 'worthy' species when they could just stick with the first worthy species they found.



Whatever the Reapers reasons, reproduction isn't it. It isn't even reproduction of new reapers, just production, and seems more akin to saving something worthy than cthulu-baby-sex-maker. Sort of how like if throw away a CD mix, you might take out any good songs before trashing the rest,

[Killjoy Cutter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I don't think we can say 'the Reapers wipe out life to increase their numbers.' Increasing their numbers is just an incidental part of their cycle.

To put it in other terms, the Reapers don't kill us because they want to make us into more Reapers. If they wanted numbers, they could just cultivate farms of people to raise and Reaperfy, without stop. They wouldn't need to keep on a lookout for each cycle for 'worthy' species when they could just stick with the first worthy species they found.

Whatever the Reapers reasons, reproduction isn't it. It isn't even reproduction of new reapers, just production, and seems more akin to saving something worthy than cthulu-baby-sex-maker. Sort of how like if throw away a CD mix, you might take out any good songs before trashing the rest,

We're using the term reproduction, but based on the "salvation" comments from Harby, it sounds like the Reapers believe that they're blessing/gracing "worthy" species with what they (the Reapers) view as ascension.

[Dean_the_Young]

And where do we get that that is their motivation for acting?



Reproduction is a end unto itself. It's the reason for doing it. The Reapers clearly are not interested in creating Reapers for the heck of it. They have reasons for selecting/refusing whichever species they 'ascend.' Those reasons might be the motivation, but the processes of ascending, in and of itself, is not.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And where do we get that that is their motivation for acting?

Reproduction is a end unto itself. It's the reason for doing it. The Reapers clearly are not interested in creating Reapers for the heck of it. They have reasons for selecting/refusing whichever species they 'ascend.' Those reasons might be the motivation, but the processes of ascending, in and of itself, is not.

You could very well be right.

On the other hand, knowing almost nothing of their deeper motivations or their origins, we don't know for certain that finding and "ascending" "worthy" species isn't their actual goal and motivation.  They could be religious fanatics of a sort, for all we really know.

[Foolsfolly]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And where do we get that that is their motivation for acting?

Reproduction is a end unto itself. It's the reason for doing it. The Reapers clearly are not interested in creating Reapers for the heck of it. They have reasons for selecting/refusing whichever species they 'ascend.' Those reasons might be the motivation, but the processes of ascending, in and of itself, is not.

You could very well be right.

On the other hand, knowing almost nothing of their deeper motivations or their origins, we don't know for certain that finding and "ascending" "worthy" species isn't their actual goal and motivation.  They could be religious fanatics of a sort, for all we really know.

This could be true. Geth worship the Reapers, colonies and mining crews eventually worship Reaper artifacts. The room with the Dragon's Teeth in the dead Reaper looks like a shrine (according to Shepard at least).

[Spectre_907]

Foolsfolly wrote...

This is true. It was nice foreshadowing. So were the codex entries for Husks and Dragons Teeth. Reaper tech had a weird fascination with making organic matter into weird technological weirdness.

So where the Husks, Abominations, Scions, and Preatorians. You see how the human form is being shaped and combined to create new troops for the Reapers.

All in all, the Human Reaper isn't a huge jump of thought as these boards would like you to think. Perhaps the design team could have made it look a little less human-like but they properly foreshadowed that something like this was likely going on.

Also there's nothing better about not knowing their goals or motives. If they had no goal or motive then they're the shark in Jaws. They just attack at random or whenever and have no plan to do anything.

Knowing more about the Reapers is required to defeat them. You can't stop an enemy you don't understand and these games were always about how Commander Shepard stopped the Reapers. So we've learned more and more about them in each game and we'll have to learn even more in the next game. That doesn't make them lesser in fact it can set up more meaningful moments in the narrative.

Not knowing much about the Reapers would be benefictal if this were a horror game/movie. You don't really need to know why Michael Myers kills people, for example. But scaring the play has never been a part of Mass Effect. There's been shocks (playing as Joker while the crew lose to a Collector attack) but nothing scary. It's a video game where all live's problems can be solved through a number system of charm/intimidate or an assualt rifle. It's about choices. It's about having your own continuity. It's about being the big hero in a massive space opera story. Not about horror.

Indeed. It would seem futile to attempt to stop the Reapers if they were portrayed as godlike entities beyond comprehension. We fear them because of what they are capable of but we know that they can be defeated and it inspires the hero to go on and we root for them in the process.

Personally, I liked the human Reaper design. It makes a derisive pull on you. The Reapers use the tech to convert humans into something abominable and the fact that it resembles a human is like a mockery that pushes you to want to destroy it.

[The-Person]

I think the human reapers would have look like the other reaper when they were done and reproduction is not their purpose for the cycle. The fact that Harbinger says that "We will find another way" at the end of the game makes me believe that they were building the reaper to use as a replacement for sovereign. We will will probably find out their real reason for the cycle in the second game.

[AntenDS]

The human reaper reminded me of that Robo-Corpse in contra III

[Ieldra]

Spectre_907 wrote...
Personally, I liked the human Reaper design. It makes a derisive pull on you. The Reapers use the tech to convert humans into something abominable and the fact that it resembles a human is like a mockery that pushes you to want to destroy it.

Really? I feel nothing of the sort. First, whenever I hear the term "abominable" I know I most likely don't share the user's preconceptions - the production method may be bad, but it's just a special lifeform, nothing more. I also don't feel the Reapers mock humanity because they're beyond the need to mock, and I don't want to destroy the thing, I want to study it (BTW, do NOT assume that the wish to study it is equivalent with the wish to build one - that's a mistake often made by people).

Modifié par Ieldra2, 20 octobre 2010 - 09:11 .

[Ragnarok521]

 I felt that the reapers had been taken down a notch on the "creepy and eerie menace from the void of space" scale, which I believe is an effect of how they were presented. Let me start this off by comparing dialogue between the two prominent reapers of the series so far.

ME1-Sovereign"Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh, you touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding.There is a realm of existence, so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it. I, am beyond your comprehension. I, am Sovereign."

ME2-Harbinger
"Human, you have changed nothing. Your species has the attention of those infinitely greater. That which you know as Reapers are your salvation through destruction."


Now first,  I liked how impersonal and indifferent Sovereign was the entire time.  That really helped sell the "Cold and heartless machine" vibe. The problem with Harbinger in my opinion was that he was too personal with Shepard ("You will know pain, Shepard", "This hurts you.", etc.) , which goes against how unfeeling and indifferent to organics the Reapers were  in ME1 .  If you ask me, the smack talk to Shepard should be coming from a servant of the Reapers like Saren, someone who is at Shepard's level instead of the Reapers themselves. I would have preferred to keep the Reapers (or in Harbinger's case, Reaper) in the background, and never coming out to a direct confrontation unless they're really in trouble. All the fights up to that point would be between Shepard and his team against the Reapers' proxy.

Modifié par Ragnarok521, 20 octobre 2010 - 09:24 .

[Epic777]

One thing I will mention: The reapers will need to show they are vulnerable and have weaknesses. Why? Unless they cannot be beaten, stopping them will feel very Deus Ex like when they are beaten.

[vkt62]

Epic777 wrote...

One thing I will mention: The reapers will need to show they are vulnerable and have weaknesses. Why? Unless they cannot be beaten, stopping them will feel very Deus Ex like when they are beaten.

Orange juice. One drop will kill them. 

But really, anyone can't think of a possible weakness other than engaging their indoctrinated puppets on the ground while our space ships pound them in space like in ME1?
Shields? too strong
Weapons? Need reaper size Thanix canon
Could be that we send in EDI and she takes care of them for us?

Modifié par vkt62, 20 octobre 2010 - 10:31 .

[cachx]

When Sovereign took control of Saren and yelled "This station is mine!" I couldn't help but to think it was being said by a whiny, spoiled child. Harbinger's smack talk while playing with his Collector toys didn't help that much.

They think of themselves as gods, but they're not. That's why Shep is going to win.

(Oh, the fact that I think of them like annoying spoiled children does not mean I think they're poor villains. I have always believed that spoiled little kids are the most evil entities in the universe ).

[S-A128]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The Reapers were two-bit monsters in ME1 as well, the conversation with Sovereign on Virmire reduces it to mustache-twirling villain in under five minutes.

He actually reminded me of old comic book villains like Galactus and especially Darkseid. All haunty talk and about how feeble we are...in fact Frozone's whole thing about monologuing fit perfectly for the Sovereign encounter. And of course, when it came to actual battle Sovie was a coward and was defeated really really easily for such a "god" like enemy.

Not saying I didn't like it. I LOVED it. I like those old chessy comic book villains and all their grand standing. Harbinger was exactly the same. We're too small and infintile to understand them, we can't possibly win, all those nice lines he has.

They're fun villains....but they were never deep meaningful villains. Just "We're beyond you" and grand standing.

And I thought the reveal of Harbinger being a Reaper was well done. It wasn't this big DUN DUN DUN! moment it was a nice subtle thing. It made my jaw drop when I realized it. And it made me feel a touch sorry for the Collector General.

Remember what sovereign said about them? "we are the vanguard of your destruction" what if there's a highly more advanced race vigil never explained. OMGWTFBBQ Mass effect 4 spoiler! JK. what if there's something worse than the reapers themselves:mellow:

[FireEye]

Epic777 wrote...

One thing I will mention: The reapers will need to show they are vulnerable and have weaknesses. Why? Unless they cannot be beaten, stopping them will feel very Deus Ex like when they are beaten.

I would prefer that we can't beat the Reapers, and at best we merely stalemate them.

Admittedly, I understand that what I want out of the story is (I highly suspect) not what most people want out of the story, so I concede that I may simply have to play ME1 over and over again while other folks get to add ME2 and ME3 to that and be equally happy.  And I'm fine with that - ME1 makes me very happy indeed. 

[crooked]

FireEye wrote...

Epic777 wrote...

One thing I will mention: The reapers will need to show they are vulnerable and have weaknesses. Why? Unless they cannot be beaten, stopping them will feel very Deus Ex like when they are beaten.

I would prefer that we can't beat the Reapers, and at best we merely stalemate them.

Admittedly, I understand that what I want out of the story is (I highly suspect) not what most people want out of the story, so I concede that I may simply have to play ME1 over and over again while other folks get to add ME2 and ME3 to that and be equally happy.  And I'm fine with that - ME1 makes me very happy indeed. 

The dialogue at the end of ME1 makes it pretty clear that there is no stalemate, even if you take away the dialogue, how can you be sure there is only one vanguard or that the reapers won't come anyway? No, a stalemate and the reapers in the same sentence doesn't work for me