150 réponses à ce sujet

[Vagula]

Jebel Krong wrote...

the fact that harbinger can filter it's consciousness through not 1, but 2 further bodies, speaks much for the reaper's potential as a threat.

I dont think it is any sign of any special magic power to be able to control several bodies. The way I see it is basically just a very advanced form of remote controlling like an extra hand that is light years away (actually Kevin Warwick did something pretty similiar with a robot hand). For all we know he could be able to do it for a million if not billion bodies at the same time. 

Also I dont think Sovereign in any way died because you killed Saren, the fleet killed Sovereign not Shepard. In a way zombie Saren was a remote part of Sovereign's body and mind, but the idea tha all the thought processing power in the ship was ended when you killed zombie Saren makes absolutly no sense to me. It would be like if you died when one brain cell died.

[Killjoy Cutter]

dangeraardvark01 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Sepewrath wrote...
And TC just to let you know, cloning genetic material on that scale is about as feasible as making a sun in your garage.

Maybe it is if all you have is a garage. But you think what Miranda's father did for a few humans, and Okeer did for a few hundred cloned krogan, Reaper technology couldn't do for a few million with all the resources of the Collector base? If they needed variety, why not collect a few million cell samples - not exactly easy as well, but beats collecting the humans themselves. But no, that would actually have been subtle, can't have that in a game, can we?
 

Also Shepard is dumb for not just randomly coming up with ideas for why they need humans?

No, he is dumb for jumping to the conclusion "What do they want with our genetic material?" If that's all they were after, they could've had that a lot easier. It takes about two seconds to conclude that this can't be their primary purpose. And EDI makes it even worse with her comment about a species' "essence". We're not in a fantasy game, damn it. Perhaps Bioware should remind themselves of that more often.

BTW, I could live with the nonsense here - it's not Bioware's first epic biology fail, one gets used to it - except that it makes the horror effects even more cheesy and gratuitous than they already are. Those B-move effects aren't horrific, they're just silly. I expected a story about a conflict between mysterious techno-gods and galactic civilization, not Resident Evil in space.

Exactly.  Mass Effect 2 makes it seem like the Reapers kidnapped the humans so they could grind them into sausage meat and fill up a giant metal statue with it.  But DNA is information.  There are much simpler ways to go about collecting it.  No sausage meat needed.

Also, if Reapers reproduce by making species into sausage meat and injecting them into giant metal versions of the species, why have all reapers thus far looked like gigantic crawfish even though they've supposedly repeated the process with innumerable other species?

There are hints all over the place that the humanoid larval Reaper was far from its final form, and might be something like the core of a new Reaper.  It's a shame that they didn't give some more visual indication of that in the game. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

Vagula wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

the fact that harbinger can filter it's consciousness through not 1, but 2 further bodies, speaks much for the reaper's potential as a threat.

I dont think it is any sign of any special magic power to be able to control several bodies. The way I see it is basically just a very advanced form of remote controlling like an extra hand that is light years away (actually Kevin Warwick did something pretty similiar with a robot hand). For all we know he could be able to do it for a million if not billion bodies at the same time. 

Also I dont think Sovereign in any way died because you killed Saren, the fleet killed Sovereign not Shepard. In a way zombie Saren was a remote part of Sovereign's body and mind, but the idea tha all the thought processing power in the ship was ended when you killed zombie Saren makes absolutly no sense to me. It would be like if you died when one brain cell died.

My take is that, having made Saren completely a part of itself at that point, Sovereign was momentarily stunned by the destruction of that part.  Had there been no fleet there to finish it off, it most likely would have come back from the effect in short order and restarted the taking of the Citadel.

[Jabarai]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

There are hints all over the place that the humanoid larval Reaper was far from its final form, and might be something like the core of a new Reaper.  It's a shame that they didn't give some more visual indication of that in the game. 

Would the fact that most Reapers seem alike be one of those hints? That the cores look different, but the outer shell is the same? Would it make any sense, I don't know...

[Jebel Krong]

Vagula wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

the fact that harbinger can filter it's consciousness through not 1, but 2 further bodies, speaks much for the reaper's potential as a threat.

I dont think it is any sign of any special magic power to be able to control several bodies. The way I see it is basically just a very advanced form of remote controlling like an extra hand that is light years away (actually Kevin Warwick did something pretty similiar with a robot hand). For all we know he could be able to do it for a million if not billion bodies at the same time. 

Also I dont think Sovereign in any way died because you killed Saren, the fleet killed Sovereign not Shepard. In a way zombie Saren was a remote part of Sovereign's body and mind, but the idea tha all the thought processing power in the ship was ended when you killed zombie Saren makes absolutly no sense to me. It would be like if you died when one brain cell died.

if part of your brain/consciousness died, you'd do more than drop your shields, i expect...

[Aurica]

Ieldra2 wrote...

NYG1991 wrote...
I think understanding their motives makes them better villains so I don't mind harbingers smack talk or sovereign.

I disagree. An opponent whose motives you do not understand evokes more fear than one you understand. And if its motives are something as mundane as reproduction, that downsizes them to the human level, where before they were something akin to gods.

.

I agree with your statement.  I found the Reapers more scary because it is so shrouded in mystery.  All we ever learnt from ME1 was that their motives behind the extinction events were incomprehensible.  Unknowable to all the sapient races that currently exist or even perhaps to those that have long been gone. 

It actually reminded me of the Old Gods from the Cthulu Mythos.  Entities that cannot be understood or comprehended.

[Vagula]

Jebel Krong wrote...

if part of your brain/consciousness died, you'd do more than drop your shields, i expect...

Still doesnt make any sense. Basically he just lost connection to one separate node that didnt even exist 5 minutes ago. I imagine that controlling Saren's body would only take a fraction of Sovereign's processing power and I dont see why that system would be permanently damaged or why it would damage other systems.

I imagine the reapers as a sort of post-singularity culture that could easily have billions of times more of thought processing power than humans and destruction of Saren would be basically a bump in the head at most. I dont see any reason why Sovereign would fight Shepard if Shepard could pose a threat to him. There was nothing to gain from fighting Shepard and there were far more pressing matters for him (opening the relay and the citadel fleet).

Modifié par Vagula, 22 octobre 2010 - 02:31 .

[Aurica]

Even though we haven't seen the full extension of Harbinger's power.   It still doesn't strike up as much fear as Sovereign.   Half the time it is just taunting Shepard incessantly which had the effect being an irritant and no more.

The thing is, if the cycle of extinction is really inevitable and Reapers as powerful as Sovereign claims.   Then why is Harbinger giving Shepard the special attention by taunting Shephard. 
Why is Harbinger trying to get possession of Shephard corpse from the Shadow Broker?

If something or someone as powerful has to go through all this trouble.   It seems to imply that they are starting to take things seriously.   Giving the impression that they can be stopped and they are having 2nd thoughts if they will achieve total victory. 

Modifié par Aurica, 22 octobre 2010 - 02:42 .

[Elyvern]

Vagula wrote...

I imagine the reapers as a sort of post-singularity culture that could easily have billions of times more of thought processing power than humans and destruction of Saren would be basically a bump in the head at most. I dont see any reason why Sovereign would fight Shepard if Shepard could pose a threat to him. There was nothing to gain from fighting Shepard and there were far more pressing matters for him (opening the relay and the citadel fleet).

That's why Sovereign was controlling Saren to fight Shepard--to get to the switch. If the relay switch was originally intended for humanoid-size beings like the keepers to activate, I doubt a giant ship like Sovereign would be able to reach it.

Modifié par Elyvern, 22 octobre 2010 - 02:40 .

[Jebel Krong]

Vagula wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

if part of your brain/consciousness died, you'd do more than drop your shields, i expect...

Still doesnt make any sense. Basically he just lost connection to one separate node that didnt even exist 5 minutes ago. I imagine that controlling Saren's body would only take a fraction of Sovereign's processing power and I dont see why that system would be permanently damaged or why it would damage other systems.

I imagine the reapers as a sort of post-singularity culture that could easily have billions of times more of thought processing power than humans and destruction of Saren would be basically a bump in the head at most. I dont see any reason why Sovereign would fight Shepard if Shepard could pose a threat to him. There was nothing to gain from fighting Shepard and there were far more pressing matters for him (opening the relay and the citadel fleet).

agreed, but i still maintain losing a part of your mind - however small - would be, at least momentarily, disorienting, and that's all the alliance needed in the pitched battle.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Aurica wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

NYG1991 wrote...
I think understanding their motives makes them better villains so I don't mind harbingers smack talk or sovereign.

I disagree. An opponent whose motives you do not understand evokes more fear than one you understand. And if its motives are something as mundane as reproduction, that downsizes them to the human level, where before they were something akin to gods.

.

I agree with your statement.  I found the Reapers more scary because it is so shrouded in mystery.  All we ever learnt from ME1 was that their motives behind the extinction events were incomprehensible.  Unknowable to all the sapient races that currently exist or even perhaps to those that have long been gone. 

It actually reminded me of the Old Gods from the Cthulu Mythos.  Entities that cannot be understood or comprehended.

Whereas that sort of thing has always fallen utterly flat and failed to impress me at all.  I find the concepts such  as Unknowable Ancient Powers and Inherently Corrupting Knowledge to be hollow and just... meh. 

[Jebel Krong]

Aurica wrote...

Even though we haven't seen the full extension of Harbinger's power.   It still doesn't strike up as much fear as Sovereign.   Half the time it is just taunting Shepard incessantly which had the effect being an irritant and no more.

The thing is, if the cycle of extinction is really inevitable and Reapers as powerful as Sovereign claims.   Then why is Harbinger giving Shepard the special attention by taunting Shephard. 
Why is Harbinger trying to get possession of Shephard corpse from the Shadow Broker?

If something or someone as powerful has to go through all this trouble.   It seems to imply that they are starting to take things seriously.   Giving the impression that they can be stopped and they are having 2nd thoughts if they will achieve total victory. 

intelligent beings like to play games? like a cat playing with a mouse. more importantly, perhaps: why not? if you are in the position where you are millions of years old, you have been a annihilating civilisations during that time every 50,000 years or so, you may very well get arrogant and bored.

[Vagula]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Aurica wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

NYG1991 wrote...
I think understanding their motives makes them better villains so I don't mind harbingers smack talk or sovereign.

I disagree. An opponent whose motives you do not understand evokes more fear than one you understand. And if its motives are something as mundane as reproduction, that downsizes them to the human level, where before they were something akin to gods.

.

I agree with your statement.  I found the Reapers more scary because it is so shrouded in mystery.  All we ever learnt from ME1 was that their motives behind the extinction events were incomprehensible.  Unknowable to all the sapient races that currently exist or even perhaps to those that have long been gone. 

It actually reminded me of the Old Gods from the Cthulu Mythos.  Entities that cannot be understood or comprehended.

Whereas that sort of thing has always fallen utterly flat and failed to impress me at all.  I find the concepts such  as Unknowable Ancient Powers and Inherently Corrupting Knowledge to be hollow and just... meh. 

If their purpose and origin are not answered in any way then I agree, but they still should stay alien and not resemble in any way human beings or movie villains (other species in ME are pretty much humans in disguise). I think archailects from Orion's Arm are a very well done example of a sort of techno-gods that are completly beyond your understanding, but still make perfect sense and are not in any way magical.

[Aurica]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Aurica wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

NYG1991 wrote...
I think understanding their motives makes them better villains so I don't mind harbingers smack talk or sovereign.

I disagree. An opponent whose motives you do not understand evokes more fear than one you understand. And if its motives are something as mundane as reproduction, that downsizes them to the human level, where before they were something akin to gods.

.

I agree with your statement.  I found the Reapers more scary because it is so shrouded in mystery.  All we ever learnt from ME1 was that their motives behind the extinction events were incomprehensible.  Unknowable to all the sapient races that currently exist or even perhaps to those that have long been gone. 

It actually reminded me of the Old Gods from the Cthulu Mythos.  Entities that cannot be understood or comprehended.

Whereas that sort of thing has always fallen utterly flat and failed to impress me at all.  I find the concepts such  as Unknowable Ancient Powers and Inherently Corrupting Knowledge to be hollow and just... meh. 

For me the moment that something can be comprehended or explained away.  Or even given even the slightest semblence of a human quality.  Then it is no longer an unknown to be feared.  

I guess it might be a bad analogy.  Its like contracting an illness that can be cured because we understand how it works etc etc...  . compared to a form of illness that cannot be cured because we don't even know how it works..

[Inquisitor Recon]

But really, if Harbinger didn't talk so much we wouldn't have so many great "THIS HURTS YOU." and "BEND TO ME." jokes.

[RyuGuitarFreak]

I see the complete opposite. While the conversation on Virmire was awesome and the overall Sovereign threat was good, I was still more connected to Saren as the big villain, because well, you don't see much to be connected to Sovereign as a character. I like Harbinger more because you see much more of it than Sovereign and you get more exposition of what reapers are or think.

[Vagula]

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

I see the complete opposite. While the conversation on Virmire was awesome and the overall Sovereign threat was good, I was still more connected to Saren as the big villain, because well, you don't see much to be connected to Sovereign as a character. I like Harbinger more because you see much more of it than Sovereign and you get more exposition of what reapers are or think.

I dont want Sovereign to be a "character". Try to imagine a being that has existed for millions of years and has thought processes so much faster and more complicated that it would be able think and feel in a second more than you can in your entire life and perhaps more than the whole human species in it's entire existance. A being like cant be a character, it is more like a force of nature.

[Ieldra]

Vagula wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Aurica wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

NYG1991 wrote...
I think understanding their motives makes them better villains so I don't mind harbingers smack talk or sovereign.

I disagree. An opponent whose motives you do not understand evokes more fear than one you understand. And if its motives are something as mundane as reproduction, that downsizes them to the human level, where before they were something akin to gods.

.

I agree with your statement.  I found the Reapers more scary because it is so shrouded in mystery.  All we ever learnt from ME1 was that their motives behind the extinction events were incomprehensible.  Unknowable to all the sapient races that currently exist or even perhaps to those that have long been gone. 

It actually reminded me of the Old Gods from the Cthulu Mythos.  Entities that cannot be understood or comprehended.

Whereas that sort of thing has always fallen utterly flat and failed to impress me at all.  I find the concepts such  as Unknowable Ancient Powers and Inherently Corrupting Knowledge to be hollow and just... meh. 

If their purpose and origin are not answered in any way then I agree, but they still should stay alien and not resemble in any way human beings or movie villains (other species in ME are pretty much humans in disguise). I think archailects from Orion's Arm are a very well done example of a sort of techno-gods that are completly beyond your understanding, but still make perfect sense and are not in any way magical.

Exactly that. They should not be of a kind a human can emotionally connect to, except as something to be feared. If a Reaper is something you can hate like a human villain, it's been downsized to the human level. I do agree they shouldn't be absolutely incomprehensible, and of course their technology should be understandable, but their motives should be something more alien than reproduction. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

Vagula wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

I see the complete opposite. While the conversation on Virmire was awesome and the overall Sovereign threat was good, I was still more connected to Saren as the big villain, because well, you don't see much to be connected to Sovereign as a character. I like Harbinger more because you see much more of it than Sovereign and you get more exposition of what reapers are or think.

I dont want Sovereign to be a "character". Try to imagine a being that has existed for millions of years and has thought processes so much faster and more complicated that it would be able think and feel in a second more than you can in your entire life and perhaps more than the whole human species in it's entire existance. A being like cant be a character, it is more like a force of nature.

That's similar to what one of the researchers on the dead Reaper says in his log entry.

[Vagula]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

That's similar to what one of the researchers on the dead Reaper says in his log entry.

I know. I loved the derelict reaper, but I hated Harbinger. I guess I can try to pretend that all the villain lines from Harby are some sort of weird psychological warfare to annoy Shepard.

[Aurica]

ReconTeam wrote...

But really, if Harbinger didn't talk so much we wouldn't have so many great "THIS HURTS YOU." and "BEND TO ME." jokes.

I wonder if Harbinger's taunts would have been much more effective or taken more seriously if they were used in a different situation.
I.e: Shepard not being able to do anything except watch helplessly as Harbinger achieves its goals.

[Ieldra]

Vagula wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Vagula wrote...
I dont want Sovereign to be a "character". Try to imagine a being that
has existed for millions of years and has thought processes so much
faster and more complicated that it would be able think and feel in a
second more than you can in your entire life and perhaps more than the
whole human species in it's entire existance. A being like cant be a
character, it is more like a force of nature.

That's similar to what one of the researchers on the dead Reaper says in his log entry.

I know. I loved the derelict reaper, but I hated Harbinger. I guess I can try to pretend that all the villain lines from Harby are some sort of weird psychological warfare to annoy Shepard.

Yes, the way the insidious influence of the Reaper was portrayed though the log entries in the Reaper IFF mission was absolutely great. *That*s brings the Reaper threat home and adds mystery without implying that it will never be understood. It's also extremely interesting how the indoctrination connected the minds of those scientists and gave them each other's memories.

Harbinger, though, came across as nothing more than a mook.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 octobre 2010 - 05:28 .

[RiouHotaru]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Exactly that. They should not be of a kind a human can emotionally connect to, except as something to be feared. If a Reaper is something you can hate like a human villain, it's been downsized to the human level. I do agree they shouldn't be absolutely incomprehensible, and of course their technology should be understandable, but their motives should be something more alien than reproduction. 

"Reproduction" is only speculation.  EDI herself admits she's basically just putting out an idea, and she has nothing to back it up with.  That's how "alien" their motives are.  We have absolutely no idea why they're making a Human Reaper, so the best we lowly mortals can do is apply our limited concepts to it in the hopes of finding an equivilant so we can try and put name to their bizzare action.  It's an example of Things Men Weren't Meant To Know.

[Killjoy Cutter]

When an argument or setting gets to the concepts of "lowly mortals can't understand" and "Things Men Weren't Meant To Know", that's when I just roll my eyes and move on.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 22 octobre 2010 - 07:12 .

[Ieldra]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Exactly that. They should not be of a kind a human can emotionally connect to, except as something to be feared. If a Reaper is something you can hate like a human villain, it's been downsized to the human level. I do agree they shouldn't be absolutely incomprehensible, and of course their technology should be understandable, but their motives should be something more alien than reproduction. 

"Reproduction" is only speculation.  EDI herself admits she's basically just putting out an idea, and she has nothing to back it up with.  That's how "alien" their motives are.  We have absolutely no idea why they're making a Human Reaper, so the best we lowly mortals can do is apply our limited concepts to it in the hopes of finding an equivilant so we can try and put name to their bizzare action.  It's an example of Things Men Weren't Meant To Know.

That's bullsh*t. Things Man Was Not Meant To Know aren't, and Reapers aren't gods. They're higher-order intelligences, yes, but that only means we shouldn't be able to understand them *intuitively*. That they and their technology can be understood should be a given in a story like this. As someone said: we aren't in a horror story.

I would put it exactly the other way: if Reapers are higher-order intelligences, by understanding them and their technology we move towards a better understanding of the universe. Only ME2 makes it so that they appear as having the very much lower intelligence of a typical human villain. There is nothing satisfying in overcoming such an enemy - we know that kind is stupid enough to make it easy for the hero.. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 octobre 2010 - 07:24 .