94 réponses à ce sujet

[JaegerBane]

Kronner wrote...
Really? One is a passive power that you activate once. The other is active power that has to compete for cooldown. Comparing them is pointless.

it's a 3-sec base cooldown kronner. Even on a Vanguard, you not going to see that much difference. Besides, activating cryo means you're not using Inferno, which on anything that isn't synthetic, you're doing yourself a disservice.

Have you actually tried Slam warp explosions? Sounds to me like you have not. "Moves enemy from other enemies" is just not true. Slam does not move enemy away.

Kronner, I'm not going to split hairs on this. Claiming it doesn't move enemies away from other enemies when it lifts one enemy above any other in the area implies you either don't understand what the power does or you've never used it.

The example you posted shows you intercepting the lift. If you left that lift to carry out the enemy would be above the rest. Simple. Obviously, if you never make a mistake and the enemy always happens to be where you want them to be then I could see the point... is that what you're saying?

Once again, you clearly do not have any idea about Slam. Slam allows you to press 1-2-3 buttons and be done with it. Pull travels, you can curve it, but it is slower. Second is a lot of time, relatively speaking.

Again Kronner, please don't take it upon yourself to dictate whether I've used Slam or not. Considering you're branding the fraction of a second it takes for Pull to reach a mid-range target as 'a lot of time', I'm not sure you have the credibility to lecture me about whether I've used Slam.

Potent how? It just comes down to personal preference.

You are the same Kronner that posted the video of killing a scion and a YMIR in seconds with a single cast of Stasis, are you not? You're honestly saying that you don't understand why it's potent? Really?

Modifié par JaegerBane, 24 octobre 2010 - 08:34 .

[Kronner]

JaegerBane wrote...

it's a 3-sec base cooldown kronner. Even on a Vanguard, you not going to see that much difference. Besides, activating cryo means you're not using Inferno, which on anything that isn't synthetic, you're doing yourself a disservice.

Maybe you do not see much difference. I do.
I activate squad Cryo for my squad, I use Inferno myself. No CD wasted. You are telling me this is not much different from using Pull? 

Kronner, I'm not going to split hairs on this. Claiming it doesn't move enemies away from other enemies when it lifts one enemy above any other in the area implies you either don't understand what the power does or you've never used it.

Again Kronner, please don't take it upon yourself to dictate whether I've used Slam or not. Considering you're branding the fraction of a second it takes for Pull to reach a mid-range target as 'a lot of time', I'm not sure you have the credibility to lecture me about whether I've used Slam.

The enemy stays in the same position (relatively speaking) and is lifted. It definitely detonates closer than Pull, unless you pull multiple enemies, of course. You made it sound like Slam moves enemy away from others, which is just not true.
For me the travel time of the Pull is why I hate it on a Vanguard. I want to Charge. Slam is simply much better for me. I press three buttons to Warp bomb and immedietaly Charge. Pull does not allow me to do this as fast. Believe it or not, but every second counts to me.

You are the same Kronner that posted the video of killing a scion and a YMIR in seconds with a single cast of Stasis, are you not? You're honestly saying that you don't understand why it's potent? Really?

Yes, to share what I found out with this forum.
But how is it more potent? Sure you can one shot YMIR Mech on Insanity. Cool.
I prefer Slam. Better and more potent power for me.


We clearly have different playstyles, for me Slam is the best bonus power.


edit:

The example you posted shows you intercepting the lift. If you left that
lift to carry out the enemy would be above the rest. Simple. Obviously,
if you never make a mistake and the enemy always happens to be where
you want them to be then I could see the point... is that what you're
saying?

No, that example was to show that you saying "moves enemy away from others" is not true.
What I mean is that Slam is superior for the purpose I described to tonnactus on the previous page. Three buttons = warp bomb, immediate charge available. Pull travels, I do not like that as a Vanguard, love it as an Adept.


Watch this video by m14567 and then tell me Slam is comparable to Pull for how he uses it. Because it is not in any way, shape or form comparable.

I bet you never used Slam that way which would explain some of the things you have said about it.

Modifié par Kronner, 24 octobre 2010 - 09:04 .

[Nooneyouknow13]

JaegerBane wrote...

Slam is only faster at setting up a warp explosion in the sense that it is insta-cast. Realistically this equates to little more than a second difference, and you have less margin for error as it's only viable for a bomb when in the lift phase (which not only lasts a fraction of a second on 1) and moves an enemy away from other enemies, which is precisely what you don't want when setting off a warp explosion.

As I said, I'm coming from an objective standpoint here. Whether you're interested in using Pull or not is irrelevant to to it's CC ability - that's not something I'm disputing.

Slam being instant hit is what prevents Cryo ammo from interfering with it. That's a huge advantage over pull if you're using Squad Cryo. Realistically, you never have to worry about Slam lifting targets out of the warp explosions radius. At lower ranks, it just doesn't lift high enough for this to be a concern, and even at the higher ranks, most locations hav ceilings(which hilariously, will usually double slams damage if you don't warp it). Even at it's peak I'm pretty suare slam doesn't lift a target more than 7 meteres off the ground anyway.

[JaegerBane]

Nooneyouknow13 wrote...
Slam being instant hit is what prevents Cryo ammo from interfering with it. That's a huge advantage over pull if you're using Squad Cryo. Realistically, you never have to worry about Slam lifting targets out of the warp explosions radius. At lower ranks, it just doesn't lift high enough for this to be a concern, and even at the higher ranks, most locations hav ceilings(which hilariously, will usually double slams damage if you don't warp it). Even at it's peak I'm pretty suare slam doesn't lift a target more than 7 meteres off the ground anyway.

That is true, yes - though I wasn't really saying Cryo interferes with Warp Explosions all the time, I was pointing out that the game tends to be more prone to screw-ups when targets are being handled by biotics. There isn't much stopping a well meaning squad mate from shooting an enemy and freezing them the same instant you hit it with Slam, unless your're handing stuff far away.

The issue with the lift duration is that, on lower levels, when the lft doesn't move the enemy up that far, has such a short duration you don't have much margin for error. Being off target or your squad mate being delayed can easily ruin the bomb. Obviously the longer lifts give more margin of error but lift the target further up, which increases the likelihood you'll miss the other enemies (particularly with Heavy Warp).

[Nooneyouknow13]

JaegerBane wrote...

Nooneyouknow13 wrote...
Slam being instant hit is what prevents Cryo ammo from interfering with it. That's a huge advantage over pull if you're using Squad Cryo. Realistically, you never have to worry about Slam lifting targets out of the warp explosions radius. At lower ranks, it just doesn't lift high enough for this to be a concern, and even at the higher ranks, most locations hav ceilings(which hilariously, will usually double slams damage if you don't warp it). Even at it's peak I'm pretty suare slam doesn't lift a target more than 7 meteres off the ground anyway.

That is true, yes - though I wasn't really saying Cryo interferes with Warp Explosions all the time, I was pointing out that the game tends to be more prone to screw-ups when targets are being handled by biotics. There isn't much stopping a well meaning squad mate from shooting an enemy and freezing them the same instant you hit it with Slam, unless your're handing stuff far away.

The issue with the lift duration is that, on lower levels, when the lft doesn't move the enemy up that far, has such a short duration you don't have much margin for error. Being off target or your squad mate being delayed can easily ruin the bomb. Obviously the longer lifts give more margin of error but lift the target further up, which increases the likelihood you'll miss the other enemies (particularly with Heavy Warp).

I could see there being issues with Heavy Warp - but why would you ever give a squad mate Heavy Warp? The cooldown reduction they get when going Unstable basically causes it to always win out in DPS as well as explosion radius.

[Kronner]

There are no issues with Heavy Warp either. The Warp explosion happens immedietaly, no reason to wait until the target is as high as possible.

Modifié par Kronner, 25 octobre 2010 - 07:16 .

[Sailears]

Kronner wrote...

Watch this video by m14567 and then tell me Slam is comparable to Pull for how he uses it. Because it is not in any way, shape or form comparable.

That an impressive run. Very smooth use of powers.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

Reave is amazing on the Vanguard, as it lets you strip armor and barriers from a distance. It also helps cover your **** if you screw up a charge. It's also great for cc'ing rocket baddies before the collector ship mission.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 28 octobre 2010 - 02:22 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

Reave is amazing on the Vanguard, as it lets you strip armor and barriers from a distance. It also helps cover your **** if you screw up a charge. It's also great for cc'ing rocket baddies before the collector ship mission.

How can Reave help your Vanguard if you screw up a charge? You'll have to wait for cooldown and whenever you can use Reave you can also use Charge and the latter will get your shields up; far more effective in keeping you alive than Reave (only works on unprotected enemies anyway).

[Angel-Shinkiro]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

Reave is amazing on the Vanguard, as it lets you strip armor and barriers from a distance. It also helps cover your **** if you screw up a charge. It's also great for cc'ing rocket baddies before the collector ship mission.

How can Reave help your Vanguard if you screw up a charge? You'll have to wait for cooldown and whenever you can use Reave you can also use Charge and the latter will get your shields up; far more effective in keeping you alive than Reave (only works on unprotected enemies anyway).

I must have misread your post because the strength of reave doubles when you use it on a enemy with barrier or armor.

Modifié par Angel-Shinkiro, 28 octobre 2010 - 06:33 .

[Arbalest7]

Angel-Shinkiro wrote...

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

Reave is amazing on the Vanguard, as it lets you strip armor and barriers from a distance. It also helps cover your **** if you screw up a charge. It's also great for cc'ing rocket baddies before the collector ship mission.

How can Reave help your Vanguard if you screw up a charge? You'll have to wait for cooldown and whenever you can use Reave you can also use Charge and the latter will get your shields up; far more effective in keeping you alive than Reave (only works on unprotected enemies anyway).

I must have misread your post because the strength of reave doubles when you use it on a enemy with barrier or armor.

 

Yes but the life-leech doesn't work on protected enemies it's just insta-cast Warp (still useful).

[Getorex]

curly haired boy wrote...

i like slam over reave right now.

I always play soldier and always go with Area Reave - I like damaging (and temporarily stunning) a group of bad guys to buy me time for squadmate cool downs or damage recovery.

I haven't tried the warp bomb however so I will have to go with Miranda more often to get there (it bombs on any biotic power currently employed so it doesn't have to be slam or pull, it should work with reave too, which lasts a bit and the enemy remains stationary at the same time too).

[Bozorgmehr]

Angel-Shinkiro wrote...

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

Reave is amazing on the Vanguard, as it lets you strip armor and barriers from a distance. It also helps cover your **** if you screw up a charge. It's also great for cc'ing rocket baddies before the collector ship mission.

How can Reave help your Vanguard if you screw up a charge? You'll have to wait for cooldown and whenever you can use Reave you can also use Charge and the latter will get your shields up; far more effective in keeping you alive than Reave (only works on unprotected enemies anyway).

I must have misread your post because the strength of reave doubles when you use it on a enemy with barrier or armor.

Yes, but it doesn't regen health when enemies still have armor or barriers left; Charge will always regen some of your shield; making it a much better power in keeping you alive. My point was Reave does not help you if you screw up a charge.

Getorex wrote...

I haven't tried the warp bomb however so I will have to go with Miranda more often to get there (it bombs on any
biotic power currently employed so it doesn't have to be slam or pull, it should work with reave too, which lasts a bit and the enemy remains stationary at the same time too).

You can only warp detonate enemies who are either Pulled, floating around in a Singularity or during Slam's lift duration only.

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 28 octobre 2010 - 10:00 .

[Locutus_of_BORG]

^Correction/clarification:

I was just meaning to say that Reave's healing helps in those cases when your charge fails for some reason and you end up eating that enemy barrage you were trying to dodge. There are also times when I've charged when I shouldn't have, gone in, can't finish a group of guys off and end up having to hide - reave lets me heal faster so I can correct my mistake.


And you can warp combo a bad guy that you've charged, provided they've been stripped of their protections at the moment of impact. I think either thisisme8 or Sabresandiego has a video showing that.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 29 octobre 2010 - 12:32 .

[Bozorgmehr]

You don't need Reave yourself to setup Warpbombs. Your squad needs a defense stripper, Pull/Singularity/Slammer, and someone with Warp. The point I (and Kronner and M14567) are making is that Slam fits Vanguards better due to its short cooldown; it doesn't interfere with Charge. You(r squad) can warp detonate and Shep can still Charge (almost) immediately (Slam is on < 2 s cooldown instead of Reave's 4 s cooldown - with upgrades and passive cd bonuses).



You can easily OHOK > 90% enemies while their defenses are still up. Thus Reave isn't needed for defense stripping; Reave isn't needed to regen health (Charge is better); and Reave isn't needed to setup warpbombs - making Slam a more useful power overall.



I'm not claiming Reave is useless (coz it ain't); I only think Slam works better. When I play Vanguard I Charge everything. There's no need imho to play part-time caster; there are other classes available if you prefer casting and they're much better at it than Vanguards.



If you like Warpbombs try the Adept (though they definitely don't need Reave); the best class to warp detonate the crap out of everybody.

[Angel-Shinkiro]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

You don't need Reave yourself to setup Warpbombs. Your squad needs a defense stripper, Pull/Singularity/Slammer, and someone with Warp. The point I (and Kronner and M14567) are making is that Slam fits Vanguards better due to its short cooldown; it doesn't interfere with Charge. You(r squad) can warp detonate and Shep can still Charge (almost) immediately (Slam is on

You can easily OHOK > 90% enemies while their defenses are still up. Thus Reave isn't needed for defense stripping; Reave isn't needed to regen health (Charge is better); and Reave isn't needed to setup warpbombs - making Slam a more useful power overall.

I'm not claiming Reave is useless (coz it ain't); I only think Slam works better. When I play Vanguard I Charge everything. There's no need imho to play part-time caster; there are other classes available if you prefer casting and they're much better at it than Vanguards.

If you like Warpbombs try the Adept (though they definitely don't need Reave); the best class to warp detonate the crap out of everybody.

You have your likes and I have mind but I think Reave is better because the Vanguard doesn't have an abillity that can strip defenses unless you count inferno rounds.

Also I think the best way to use Reave on a vanguard is by stripping enemies of their defenses, then charge them. Reave can also be used to gain some health when you can't risk charging.

[Bozorgmehr]

Angel-Shinkiro wrote...

You have your likes and I have mind but I think Reave is better because the Vanguard doesn't have an abillity that can strip defenses unless you count inferno rounds.

Why do you have to strip defenses?

Also I think the best way to use Reave on a vanguard is by stripping enemies of their defenses, then charge them. Reave can also be used to gain some health when you can't risk charging.

I consider that counter productive. Charging unprotected enemies sends them flying; much harder to shoot them and it isn't needed anyway. A point blank shotgun blast will kill them regardless what defenses they've got.

All I'm saying here is that you don't need Reave and that it only reduces Quality (I mean Charge) time. Of course everyone can play the way they like. The (only) thing I like about Vanguards is Charge and I use it as much as possible - Reave just gets in the way. I only tried to explain Reave isn't needed to setup warpbombs, isn't needed (in fact it's far worse than Charge) to regen and Vanguards kill protected enemies just as fast as unprotected.

[ryoldschool]

I have been watching this discussion about vanguard reave vs slam. I just completed a vanguard playthrough with slam, and am 1/2 way thru with vanguard with reave, xbox, insanity. You are both right. Sometimes reave is much better ( Grunt Loyality - lvl 2 reave + smg took out threasher maul ( sp ) ), Any place where there is a lot of armor ( Mordin recruitment, Horizon - before you have inferno ammo ). On the other hand slam is great because of all the reasons Bozorgmehr mentions. There are times I wish I had the other one equiped. I am using ScroguBlizten's cryoguard strategy so armor is sometimes a problem with that setup ( Thane Recruitment - armored vanguard before and after the windy bridge ). They are both great and have their uses.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

You don't need Reave yourself to setup Warpbombs. Your squad needs a defense stripper, Pull/Singularity/Slammer, and someone with Warp. The point I (and Kronner and M14567) are making is that Slam fits Vanguards better due to its short cooldown; it doesn't interfere with Charge. You(r squad) can warp detonate and Shep can still Charge (almost) immediately (Slam is on

You can easily OHOK > 90% enemies while their defenses are still up. Thus Reave isn't needed for defense stripping; Reave isn't needed to regen health (Charge is better); and Reave isn't needed to setup warpbombs - making Slam a more useful power overall.

I'm not claiming Reave is useless (coz it ain't); I only think Slam works better. When I play Vanguard I Charge everything. There's no need imho to play part-time caster; there are other classes available if you prefer casting and they're much better at it than Vanguards.

If you like Warpbombs try the Adept (though they definitely don't need Reave); the best class to warp detonate the crap out of everybody.

Not arguing against you, or your use of slam on vanguard. Technically, Vanguard doesn't need reave, slam or any bonus power, really. I've seen both work, but my own experiences have only been with reave so far, so that's all I can really speak for.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 29 octobre 2010 - 04:17 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

Not arguing against you, or your use of slam on vanguard. Technically, Vanguard doesn't need reave, slam or any bonus power, really. I've seen both work, but my own experiences have only been with reave so far, so that's all I can really speak for.

I wasn't arguing against you Locutus; I only tried to dismiss some of the claims made earlier; about the need to strip defenses; health regen and warpbombs - Reave is not needed to do any of this. Course you're free to chose whatever bonus power you like (I recommend giving Slam a try on your Vanguard though).

Cheers

[aeetos21]

reave

[smithgroup]

Kronner wrote...

Pull (Field) is great only after you put 10 points into it, rank 1-3 is nothing special. 3 Points have to be wasted on freaking Shockwave, which blows.
And husks are harmless anyways. Not to mention squad Pull is even better..no travel time and the very same effect.

You must have never played on insanity, if you think Husks are harmless...

[sinosleep]

smithgroup wrote...

Kronner wrote...

Pull (Field) is great only after you put 10 points into it, rank 1-3 is nothing special. 3 Points have to be wasted on freaking Shockwave, which blows.
And husks are harmless anyways. Not to mention squad Pull is even better..no travel time and the very same effect.

You must have never played on insanity, if you think Husks are harmless...

He's got 60 + videos absolutely CAKE WALKING insanity, I've got 54, many others have more. Husks are harmless because there are about a million ways to instakill them, MANY of which are aoe.

1. use cryo ammo on them
2. pull them
3. throw them
4. slam them
5. use concussive shot on them 
6. set off a warp bomb near them
7. cryo blast them
8. charge them
9. nueral shock them
10. stasis them
11. singularity them

and I'm certain I'm missing a few being as ANYTHING that results in them leaving their feet will instakill them.

Modifié par sinosleep, 30 octobre 2010 - 05:52 .

[kstarler]

On my last Vanguard, thanks to Sinosleep's suggestions for Vanguard newbies like me, I found that a trusty pistol and Slam do wonders for making Husks disappear on Insanity difficulty. You just have to keep moving and killing so you don't get swarmed. Against husks in the past, I've had difficulty using Reave, but that's because I was trying to use it to kill them, rather than get them to health so I could pull/throw them via a party member.

[taine]

sinosleep wrote...

He's got 60 + videos absolutely CAKE WALKING insanity, I've got 54, many others have more. Husks are harmless because there are about a million ways to instakill them, MANY of which are aoe. 

1. use cryo ammo on them
2. pull them
3. throw them
4. slam them
5. use concussive shot on them 
6. set off a warp bomb near them
7. cryo blast them
8. charge them
9. nueral shock them
10. stasis them
11. singularity them

and I'm certain I'm missing a few being as ANYTHING that results in them leaving their feet will instakill them.

Yes, those will all instakill them, but only if they have no armor... which means that none of them will work on Insanity until you bring it down, which makes them much much more dangerous...

On the topic of the thread, I would say that Slam is much more useful on lower difficulties, while Reave is much more useful on the top couple of difficulty settings since absolutely everything has some amount of defenses, and it can cut through all of them (with an AoE, no less).

Modifié par taine, 30 octobre 2010 - 06:28 .