162 réponses à ce sujet

[Saibh]

David Gaider wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Not so! It's not us who harm the kittens

Who does?

Every time a forumite says something should be simple to do, a kitten gets punted through a plate glass window.

So who's really responsible for that carnage?

I think we all know the answer to that.

If you suscribe to Mass Effect's drell theology, it's the boots' fault. Don't ask me if that's actually right.

Modifié par Saibh, 20 octobre 2010 - 06:32 .

[Ortaya Alevli]

David Gaider wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Not so! It's not us who harm the kittens

Who does?

Every time a forumite says something should be simple to do, a kitten gets punted through a plate glass window.

So who's really responsible for that carnage?

I think we all know the answer to that.

Yeah. Should be simple to guess what the answer is.

...um

[nightcobra]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Not so! It's not us who harm the kittens

Who does?

Every time a forumite says something should be simple to do, a kitten gets punted through a plate glass window.

So who's really responsible for that carnage?

I think we all know the answer to that.

Yeah. Should be simple to guess what the answer is.

...um

*put another into the list*

that makes it 170059 kittens this week alone 

[kuurankuiskaus]

I feel bad for the kittens

[bloodtallow]

David Gaider wrote...

Every time a forumite says something should be simple to do, a kitten gets punted through a plate glass window.

So who's really responsible for that carnage?

I think we all know the answer to that.

Noo! Not Ser Pounce-a-Lot!

Seriously though, this thread is a blast to read. Thanks, devs, for taking the time to give us your perspectives, and thanks everyone for keeping the ball rolling by asking such good questions!

[AlexXIV]

Seb Hanlon wrote...

Offended? Not really. We know more about the flaws in the game than most fans ever will.

There's been a number of times, though, when I've started a forum post with one of:
- "Oh, honey, no."
- "It's adorable that you feel that way."
- "Listen, son, I don't like your tone."
or
- "Damn, you're right. We really are on a mission to ruin everything forever."

... And then closed the browser window, because whatever followed just wouldn't be helpful, productive, or professional. I figure it's worth sacrificing some sarcastic satisfaction to make the forums a nicer place for everyone!

Assuming of course that's what people actually want. A nice forum. God knows I am not here to see people post about how much they like each other

Also, overreacting just makes you look more human. I prefer that to some generic random answer tbh.

[AtreiyaN7]

David Gaider wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Not so! It's not us who harm the kittens

Who does?

Every time a forumite says something should be simple to do, a kitten gets punted through a plate glass window.

So who's really responsible for that carnage?

I think we all know the answer to that.

Not the kittens! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

*weeps over kitten carnage*

[Weiser_Cain]

Seb Hanlon wrote...

Offended? Not really. We know more about the flaws in the game than most fans ever will.

I bet this is what the people that designed Dnd 4e think too. "We know what's good for yah!"

After sleeping on it, one reason I don't complain directly to the devs is that I don't think they'll listen. I could (and have) write a wall of text of suggestions and I know none of them will make a difference.
They either like whatever it is that's frustrating me (Like say, a horrible crafting system in a game I won't mention, or shared cooldowns for biotics in ME2), or they say that there's no time to do what I asked (true or not) or my favorite "we'll think about it" which I now auto translate into "shut up already" since I've never seen any serious results.

So now I just share my initial reaction on the forum but mostly complain in real life, where my frustration is funnier and frankly, where no one can close my threads.

[AlanC9]

Of course, the devs have been known to implement ideas from these debates. Good ones, anyway.

Modifié par AlanC9, 20 octobre 2010 - 07:53 .

[Koralis]

David Gaider wrote...
Every time a forumite says something should be simple to do, a kitten gets punted through a plate glass window.

So who's really responsible for that carnage?

I think we all know the answer to that.

The kitten.  It was born puntable and made itself available to be punted by a developer.  It has no one to blame but itself.

[atheelogos]

JohnEpler wrote...

Eh. I worked retail throughout university. I'm used to it - and honestly, most of the people on these forums are quite polite and well-reasoned.

Thanks for saying so :happy:

[Weiser_Cain]

And then there's that, forums are always going to be skewed in the favor of dev worship since unless you're a troll once a game disappoints you enough you kind of walk away.

[RyuAzai]

David Gaider wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Not so! It's not us who harm the kittens

Who does?

Every time a forumite says something should be simple to do, a kitten gets punted through a plate glass window.

So who's really responsible for that carnage?

I think we all know the answer to that.

God.

[David Gaider]

Weiser_Cain wrote...
And then there's that, forums are always going to be skewed in the favor of dev worship since unless you're a troll once a game disappoints you enough you kind of walk away.

Which is the healthy thing to do, no? Occasionally it does seem to boil down to that guy at the party that feels forced to announce to everyone that he intends to leave because the party, like, totally sucks.

THAT GUY: "So... I'm leaving, everyone!"

EVERYONE: "Okay, bye!"

THAT GUY: "Because this party TOTALLY SUCKS. I don't like it any more!"

EVERYONE: "Well, alright."

THAT GUY: "So now I'm going! I'm totally walking out the door!"

EVERYONE: "Okay."

THAT GUY: "This door! Right here! And I won't be coming back!"

EVERYONE: "Have fun."

THAT GUY: (Long pause) "Why the heck do you want to STAY? This party is totally lame!"

EVERYONE: "I thought you were leaving?"

THAT GUY: "Because the party is LAME!"

EVERYONE: "Well, we're enjoying it. Or we were."

THAT GUY: "Fine! Then I'll go!" (Storms out the door, slams it loudly)

THAT GUY: (Muffled now, from outside) "I totally left! And you all deserve it for being lame!"

(Pause)

THAT GUY: "I'm still outside."

EVERYONE: "So we gathered."

THAT GUY: "You don't deserve my presence!"

EVERYONE: "Evidently not."

THAT GUY: (Storms back in) "Well I'm not giving you the satisfaction! So there!"


THE MESSAGE: DON'T BE THAT GUY.

[AmstradHero]

Weiser_Cain wrote...

Seb Hanlon wrote...

Offended? Not really. We know more about the flaws in the game than most fans ever will.

I bet this is what the people that designed Dnd 4e think too. "We know what's good for yah!"

After sleeping on it, one reason I don't complain directly to the devs is that I don't think they'll listen. I could (and have) write a wall of text of suggestions and I know none of them will make a difference.
They either like whatever it is that's frustrating me (Like say, a horrible crafting system in a game I won't mention, or shared cooldowns for biotics in ME2), or they say that there's no time to do what I asked (true or not) or my favorite "we'll think about it" which I now auto translate into "shut up already" since I've never seen any serious results.

There was a related thread on this issue recently. Here's a snppet that's really valuable for all people looking and games and their design:

Lukas Kristjanson wrote...
What is your favorite game?
What was its biggest flaw and what would you have done to fix it?
Why did that flaw HAVE to be there, and what would your fix break?

The point is, devs have played the games they work on a lot. They can typically see where the strengths and weaknesses are. Moreover, they have the shared vision of the game should be and when a design decision is made, it considers a lot of aspects about the game as a whole. People who play games typically don't have this holistic view.

Many simply say "I don't like X" without any logical reasoning for their opinion. That's not helpful for devs. Some say "you could problem X by doing Y" without consideration to the effort required to implement such a "fix" nor the problems that their proposed solution would introduce. 

I know in my upcoming mod The Shattered War, some gamers are going to be unhappy about the mechanisms used to interact with and romance party members. But I had to make the decision on how to implement these based on factors like: a reasonable word budget, plot structure, gameplay structure, atmosphere/realism issues, technical considerations, etc. My choice is the best means I have at my disposal for that interaction based on the story that I want to tell. I'll wear some complaints from players due to these flaws, but I had to make a choice and I have reasons for making it.

This isn't to say that fans can't think of something new that the developers haven't considered.  But people who think that their ideas are perfect and have no flaws need a reality check. If a dev says "we'll think about", that means they've taken your ideas on board. You've (probably) suggested something that is well considered and that is to be commended.

A dev cannot say "yes, we'll use that idea", because there's a big process that needs to be undertaken in order to make design decisions. Worse, if it's not implemented exactly the way that the person who suggests the idea imagined it (and all the people who read the dev's comment saying "we'll implement that"), then the fans bring out the pitchforks and torches decrying how they "failed to deliver on their promises".

Of course, I'm not a professional game developer (even though I'm working on it) and I can't give you the official opinion of a BioWare employee.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 20 octobre 2010 - 09:04 .

[Ortaya Alevli]

David Gaider wrote...

Weiser_Cain wrote...
And then there's that, forums are always going to be skewed in the favor of dev worship since unless you're a troll once a game disappoints you enough you kind of walk away.

Which is the healthy thing to do, no? Occasionally it does seem to boil down to that guy at the party that feels forced to announce to everyone that he intends to leave because the party, like, totally sucks.

THAT GUY: "So... I'm leaving, everyone!"

EVERYONE: "Okay, bye!"

THAT GUY: "Because this party TOTALLY SUCKS. I don't like it any more!"

EVERYONE: "Well, alright."

THAT GUY: "So now I'm going! I'm totally walking out the door!"

EVERYONE: "Okay."

THAT GUY: "This door! Right here! And I won't be coming back!"

EVERYONE: "Have fun."

THAT GUY: (Long pause) "Why the heck do you want to STAY? This party is totally lame!"

EVERYONE: "I thought you were leaving?"

THAT GUY: "Because the party is LAME!"

EVERYONE: "Well, we're enjoying it. Or we were."

THAT GUY: "Fine! Then I'll go!" (Storms out the door, slams it loudly)

THAT GUY: (Muffled now, from outside) "I totally left! And you all deserve it for being lame!"

(Pause)

THAT GUY: "I'm still outside."

EVERYONE: "So we gathered."

THAT GUY: "You don't deserve my presence!"

EVERYONE: "Evidently not."

THAT GUY: (Storms back in) "Well I'm not giving you the satisfaction! So there!"


THE MESSAGE: DON'T BE THAT GUY.

That was a neat piece! Ever considered a career on writing?

[Weiser_Cain]

David Gaider wrote...

Weiser_Cain wrote...
And then there's that, forums are always going to be skewed in the favor of dev worship since unless you're a troll once a game disappoints you enough you kind of walk away.

Which is the healthy thing to do, no? Occasionally it does seem to boil down to that guy at the party that feels forced to announce to everyone that he intends to leave because the party, like, totally sucks.

THE MESSAGE: DON'T BE THAT GUY.

So you're saying love it or STFU and get out?

[ChickenDownUnder]

Posting on the internet pretty much means you have to have a thick skin, or be at the mercy of Anonymous. I am surprised to read that members of Bioware have gotten upset over comments here, though. This forum is pretty mild and polite. Almost surreal. Not to say Bioware employees are internet wimps or anything, just to be clear.

[nightcobra]

Weiser_Cain wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Weiser_Cain wrote...
And then there's that, forums are always going to be skewed in the favor of dev worship since unless you're a troll once a game disappoints you enough you kind of walk away.

Which is the healthy thing to do, no? Occasionally it does seem to boil down to that guy at the party that feels forced to announce to everyone that he intends to leave because the party, like, totally sucks.

THE MESSAGE: DON'T BE THAT GUY.

So you're saying love it or STFU and get out?

more like, if you don't like the party come up with ways to make it more fun (politely) instead of just saying it sucks, and if you can't do that at least don't be annoying to other people enjoying it.

[Weiser_Cain]

AmstradHero wrote...

The point is, devs have played the games they work on a lot. They can typically see where the strengths and weaknesses are. Moreover, they have the shared vision of the game should be and when a design decision is made, it considers a lot of aspects about the game as a whole. People who play games typically don't have this holistic view.

If your position is the devs experience of the game is superior to ours(correct me if I'm wrong)? Then they failed in making a game for us.

Modifié par Weiser_Cain, 20 octobre 2010 - 09:15 .

[David Gaider]

Weiser_Cain wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Weiser_Cain wrote...
And then there's that, forums are always going to be skewed in the favor of dev worship since unless you're a troll once a game disappoints you enough you kind of walk away.

Which is the healthy thing to do, no? Occasionally it does seem to boil down to that guy at the party that feels forced to announce to everyone that he intends to leave because the party, like, totally sucks.

THE MESSAGE: DON'T BE THAT GUY.

So you're saying love it or STFU and get out?

Errr... no.

Walking away is sometimes simply the healthy thing to do. If you're not enjoying the party, sitting there and bitterly grousing that everyone who is enjoying the party are a bunch of idiots who're just kissing up to the host is still you not having any fun.

Unless that's your idea of fun. Which would be sad, I guess, but hey-- there ya go.

[Weiser_Cain]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

Weiser_Cain wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Weiser_Cain wrote...
And then there's that, forums are always going to be skewed in the favor of dev worship since unless you're a troll once a game disappoints you enough you kind of walk away.

Which is the healthy thing to do, no? Occasionally it does seem to boil down to that guy at the party that feels forced to announce to everyone that he intends to leave because the party, like, totally sucks.

THE MESSAGE: DON'T BE THAT GUY.

So you're saying love it or STFU and get out?

more like, if you don't like the party come up with ways to make it more fun (politely) instead of just saying it sucks, and if you can't do that at least don't be annoying to other people enjoying it.

Well that's a bad point to make with me since I have made tons of suggestions that get ignored like the post in this very topic where I said just that!

[RosaAquafire]

Weiser_Cain wrote...

So you're saying love it or STFU and get out?

lolwhat? Reading comprehension fail, much?

[Weiser_Cain]

David Gaider wrote...

Errr... no.

Walking away is sometimes simply the healthy thing to do. If you're not enjoying the party, sitting there and bitterly grousing that everyone who is enjoying the party are a bunch of idiots who're just kissing up to the host is still you not having any fun.

Unless that's your idea of fun. Which would be sad, I guess, but hey-- there ya go.

I walk away when I give up on the company. Although I've given up on DA2 (you'll note I don't post about it anymore)I haven't given up on bioware yet. What dragged me into this conversation is I wanted make my point that while constructive criticism is best, you shouldn't ignore criticism just because it's not delivered with a dozen roses. Of for that matter if they don't have a solution. "I don't like this" is a valid criticism.