162 réponses à ce sujet

[Koralis]

AmstradHero wrote...
The point is, devs have played the games they work on a lot. They can typically see where the strengths and weaknesses are. Moreover, they have the shared vision of the game should be and when a design decision is made, it considers a lot of aspects about the game as a whole. People who play games typically don't have this holistic view.

Conversely though, since they've played their games a lot they run the risk of not seeing the forest for the trees.  They've been playing for months and years with helmets and without bowstrings, and don't see what the big deal is.   The helmet toggle and the bowstrings should really have been present from Day 1.  Because it kept getting backburnered and pooh-poohed as not important, eventually it just became "the way it is" and by the time someone in the public asks for a change they both don't see the point, and it may or may not even be possible to change because too many other systems were built on top of a broken implimentation instead of getting it right initially.

This isn't to say that fans can't think of something new that the developers haven't considered.  But people who think that their ideas are perfect and have no flaws need a reality check. If a dev says "we'll think about", that means they've taken your ideas on board. You've (probably) suggested something that is well considered and that is to be commended.

In general it means that nothing will be done.  There are many things that Bioware could fix, but because of the testing involved, basically won't.   The reason these requests are coming back up now is that they still need to test all of these things.

If they fix the toggling helmet issue now, plenty of time to figure out if it breaks anything else.  If they push it off until the game is done, then they're not going to want to go back and potentially break things for what they consider a stupid feature that the devs themselves don't feel is important.

Doing the "unimportant" things when there's still plenty of time left on the clock is the only way that they'll ever get done.

[Yrkoon]

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

I mean, it's their work of art. When someone insults what you put countless hours into completing, it's typical to get very offended. Sometimes, your feelings even get hurt. So when they see a bunch of people saying stuff like "this sucks" , "the game developers were being lazy when they did X", "WoW is way better than this crap", or "I could make a better game than this", does a part of them die on the inside? Or what about the comments made on this board in regards to countless complaints which have already been made about Dragon Age 2?

I'm not a Dev, obviously.  But If I was,  personal insults,  simplistic criticisms, and opinionated comparisons of the game wouldn't offend me.  What *would* get under my skin is blatant misinformation being spread.  For example, someone coming on here and b**ching that they won't be able to play a female Hawke.?  C'mon.    There's no excuse for posts like that.  And if I was a Dev, I'd seek out those threads and  lock them  right away before such erroneous rumors grow and spread.    Because unlike personal insults,  Threads that spread false information can actually do damage  (ie. lost sales)  if they're not dealt with on time 

Modifié par Yrkoon, 20 octobre 2010 - 09:37 .

[0x30A88]

Mindless haters who see their opinions as raw facts exists everywhere - they are easily found on Youtube.

[LIKASOMBODEE]

Edit: Post removed. 

Modifié par Chris Priestly, 20 octobre 2010 - 09:38 .

[Weiser_Cain]

Yrkoon wrote...
I'm not a Dev, obviously.  But If I was,  personal insults,  simplistic criticisms, and opinionated comparisons of the game wouldn't offend me.  What *would* get under my skin is blatant misinformation being spread.  For example, someone coming on here and b**ching that they won't be able to play a female Hawke.?  C'mon.    There's no excuse for posts like that.  And if I was a Dev, I'd seek out threads like that one and lock them  right away before such erroneous rumors grow and spread.    Because unlike personal insults,  Threads that spread false information can actually do damage  (ie. lost sales) 

Probably better idea to correct the misinformation that to shut down discussion. You're just going to make that person mad and now they're going to have two things to complain about one of them true, "No female Hawke and they won't let you mention it on their forums!"

Modifié par Weiser_Cain, 20 octobre 2010 - 09:38 .

[Shadow_broker]

Edit: Post removed.

Modifié par Chris Priestly, 20 octobre 2010 - 09:38 .

[Felene]

gamestress wrote...
*snip*
I also think everyone should work retail at some time in their life. Gave me a new insight and respect for anyone
that has to deal with the public.

^This. I can share a few interesting stories but that will take all day. working as an customer service manager in retail business can give someone a very realistic view on humanity.

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Weiser_Cain wrote...
And then there's that, forums are always going to be skewed in the favor of dev worship since unless you're a troll once a game disappoints you enough you kind of walk away.

Which is the healthy thing to do, no? Occasionally it does seem to boil down to that guy at the party that feels forced to announce to everyone that he intends to leave because the party, like, totally sucks.
*snip THAT GUY STORY*
THE MESSAGE: DON'T BE THAT GUY.

That was a neat piece! Ever considered a career on writing?

I don't know which one is worse, his ignorance on Mr. Gaider IS DA Lead Writer or his fail sarcasm.

Weiser_Cain wrote...

So you're saying love it or STFU and get out?

Constructive critisisim only. Trolling/rage-ranting/jump to conclusion will get you nowhere.

Is just me or  this thread has the tendency to attract haters.

Modifié par Felene, 21 octobre 2010 - 10:55 .

[Bobad]

Felene wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Weiser_Cain wrote...
And then there's that, forums are always going to be skewed in the favor of dev worship since unless you're a troll once a game disappoints you enough you kind of walk away.

Which is the healthy thing to do, no? Occasionally it does seem to boil down to that guy at the party that feels forced to announce to everyone that he intends to leave because the party, like, totally sucks.
*snip THAT GUY STORY*
THE MESSAGE: DON'T BE THAT GUY.

That was a neat piece! Ever considered a career on writing?

I don't know which one is worse, his ignorance on Mr. Gaider IS is DA Lead Writer or his fail sarcasm.

I got the impression that was neither and more Ortaya pretending to be unaware in a more surreal fashion

[Weiser_Cain]

I didn't know that was the head writer. *shrugs*

[Saibh]

Weiser_Cain wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Errr... no.

Walking away is sometimes simply the healthy thing to do. If you're not enjoying the party, sitting there and bitterly grousing that everyone who is enjoying the party are a bunch of idiots who're just kissing up to the host is still you not having any fun.

Unless that's your idea of fun. Which would be sad, I guess, but hey-- there ya go.

I walk away when I give up on the company. Although I've given up on DA2 (you'll note I don't post about it anymore)I haven't given up on bioware yet. What dragged me into this conversation is I wanted make my point that while constructive criticism is best, you shouldn't ignore criticism just because it's not delivered with a dozen roses. Of for that matter if they don't have a solution. "I don't like this" is a valid criticism.

The only developer post I've seen in that regard is Mike Laidlaw saying that he doesn't like it when people give a short "BioWare, you suck" without anything constructive. From my personal point of view, it's difficult to see the "constructive" part in criticism when it's particularly nasty and acidic--but I'm not a professional.

[eyesofastorm]

David Gaider wrote...

Weiser_Cain wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Weiser_Cain wrote...
And then there's that, forums are always going to be skewed in the favor of dev worship since unless you're a troll once a game disappoints you enough you kind of walk away.

Which is the healthy thing to do, no? Occasionally it does seem to boil down to that guy at the party that feels forced to announce to everyone that he intends to leave because the party, like, totally sucks.

THE MESSAGE: DON'T BE THAT GUY.

So you're saying love it or STFU and get out?

Errr... no.

Walking away is sometimes simply the healthy thing to do. If you're not enjoying the party, sitting there and bitterly grousing that everyone who is enjoying the party are a bunch of idiots who're just kissing up to the host is still you not having any fun.

Unless that's your idea of fun. Which would be sad, I guess, but hey-- there ya go.

Here's the thing....  some of us have been coming to your parties for years.  It is difficult to find that you are no longer welcomed or wanted at the party anymore.  

This is not me standing outside the door yelling btw.  I stopped caring right around the time when the first bit of info about DAII was released and I realized you didn't throw this party for me.  This is me sticking up a little bit for and maybe giving some perspective on "That guy".

[Felene]

LOL! This thread is turning into Mr. Gaider 's"THAT GUY" thread with bunch of THAT GUY posting "I AM NOT THAT GUY".

[Firky]

I don't really dig the argument that "They wouldn't be in it if they didn't have a thick skin."

People say that about High School teachers. (I was one for 6 years.) Sure, you can probably expect that sometime in any given day, someone is going to complain about what you are teaching, call you a bad name or a "crap teacher", but that doesn't mean you should have to expect it. That's why schools have a discipline policy that is uniform and enforced. So, when a student calles a teacher "crap", they can simply face the consequences of that; something like sitting with the Head Teacher until they've chilled out and apologise or a detention or whatever. In this way, teachers are supported in doing their job (teaching), and don't have to worry too much about developing a thick skin. (Because they shouldn't have to.)

I think evolving forum culture is really interesting. Concepts like "kitten hurling" feel a bit to me like "consequences", or at least an effort to make the poster re-examine what they have said and how it comes across.

Having a thick skin doesn't make you seek out employment where you are likely to be on the receiving end of complaints. You become whatever you become because you are passionate about it (or because you need the money). Teaching and games industry are quite different but I don't believe anyone should be expected to be on the receiving end of verbal abuse because of their job. (Useful criticism not falling under a definition of verbal abuse.)

[Saibh]

eyesofastorm wrote...

Here's the thing....  some of us have been coming to your parties for years.  It is difficult to find that you are no longer welcomed or wanted at the party anymore.  

This is not me standing outside the door yelling btw.  I stopped caring right around the time when the first bit of info about DAII was released and I realized you didn't throw this party for me.  This is me sticking up a little bit for and maybe giving some perspective on "That guy".

Yeah, but you know, they'll throw another party, and you'll be invited to that party. They might even notice you left early and they'll ask you what was wrong, and so long as you don't throw your drink in their face, they'll listen. Maybe their last party was a big hit--bigger than they ever had--and they say, "Well, all my other friends had more fun then they ever had--why not come again?". Maybe you'll hate it anyway and decide that your friend is a changed person and decide to make new friends.

Modifié par Saibh, 20 octobre 2010 - 10:21 .

[Bobad]

Felene wrote...

LOL! This thread is turning into Mr. Gaider 's"THAT GUY" thread with bunch of THAT GUY posting "I AM NOT THAT GUY".

That Guy?, they're only regret is that they had Boneitis?

Modifié par Bobad, 20 octobre 2010 - 10:22 .

[eyesofastorm]

Felene wrote...

LOL! This thread is turning into Mr. Gaider 's"THAT GUY" thread with bunch of THAT GUY posting "I AM NOT THAT GUY".

Evidence of what I'm saying and a reason I only post on the Bioboards once a quarter these days.  Well... I guess that makes twice this quarter now.

[Maverick827]

eyesofastorm wrote...

Here's the thing....  some of us have been coming to your parties for years.  It is difficult to find that you are no longer welcomed or wanted at the party anymore.  

This is not me standing outside the door yelling btw.  I stopped caring right around the time when the first bit of info about DAII was released and I realized you didn't throw this party for me.  This is me sticking up a little bit for and maybe giving some perspective on "That guy".

Not everyone gets a party thrown for them.  I want a ton of things that probably won't make it into DAII, but I'm not jumping ship because of them.  

If you fundamentally disagree with DAII, that is to say, if you are figuratively allergic to voiced player characters or whichever feature it is that sends you into Angstaphylactic Shock, then you wouldn't even be reading these forums anymore.

Saibh wrote...

The only developer post I've seen in that regard is Mike Laidlaw saying that he doesn't like it when people give a short "BioWare, you suck" without anything constructive.  From my personal point of view, it's difficult to see the "constructive" part in criticism when it's particularly nasty and acidic--but I'm not a professional.

Saibh, you suck. 

Modifié par Maverick827, 20 octobre 2010 - 10:24 .

[Saibh]

Maverick827 wrote...

Saibh wrote...

The only developer post I've seen in that regard is Mike Laidlaw saying that he doesn't like it when people give a short "BioWare, you suck" without anything constructive.  From my personal point of view, it's difficult to see the "constructive" part in criticism when it's particularly nasty and acidic--but I'm not a professional.

Saibh, you suck. 

New siggie!

Eh, it won't fit anyway.

Modifié par Saibh, 20 octobre 2010 - 10:25 .

[Ortaya Alevli]

Bobad wrote...

Felene wrote...

I don't know which one is worse, his ignorance on Mr. Gaider IS is DA Lead Writer or his fail sarcasm.

I got the impression that was neither and more Ortaya pretending to be unaware in a more surreal fashion

You got that right for the most part.

It wasn't the sarcasm that failed, Felene. It was you who failed to miss the point. The lead writer of Dragon Age comes to the forums and treats us a nice piece of writing. I pointed it out in a lighthearted fashion. Though I admit I was guilty of bait fishing as well.

So let's not start with ignorance.

[David Gaider]

eyesofastorm wrote...
Here's the thing....  some of us have been coming to your parties for years.  It is difficult to find that you are no longer welcomed or wanted at the party anymore.

It has nothing to do with being unwelcome or unwanted. We'd like everyone to have fun at our party... it is a party, after all... but hey, not everybody's going to. At the end of the day you're responsible for your own enjoyment.

But, meh. This is what I get for making a smart-ass analogy.

[sreaction]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well it is not art. It is business. ...

I disagree, it is an artform, (making crpg's). It also is a business. It can be both: the business of making art,  your statement suggest if I am in the business of writing, my writing cannot be an artform. No, thats not true.

An artform, in my estimation, equals any creative endeavor that uses any type of media/material, regardless of its monetary circumstance.

Anyway back to your discussion dont mind me.

Modifié par sreaction, 20 octobre 2010 - 10:41 .

[ShrinkingFish]

David Gaider wrote...

eyesofastorm wrote...
Here's the thing....  some of us have been coming to your parties for years.  It is difficult to find that you are no longer welcomed or wanted at the party anymore.

It has nothing to do with being unwelcome or unwanted. We'd like everyone to have fun at our party... it is a party, after all... but hey, not everybody's going to. At the end of the day you're responsible for your own enjoyment.

But, meh. This is what I get for making a smart-ass analogy.

Yeah. Smart-ass analogies don't often translate effectively into dumb-ass. And the mistranslations often lead to cultural schisms.

[AtreiyaN7]

Weiser_Cain wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Weiser_Cain wrote...
And then there's that, forums are always going to be skewed in the favor of dev worship since unless you're a troll once a game disappoints you enough you kind of walk away.

Which is the healthy thing to do, no? Occasionally it does seem to boil down to that guy at the party that feels forced to announce to everyone that he intends to leave because the party, like, totally sucks.

THE MESSAGE: DON'T BE THAT GUY.

So you're saying love it or STFU and get out?

/start translation

DG was poking fun of the kind of forumite who posts a message threatening to leave, or outright promises to leave, because he/she thinks the game sucks. Only, the forumite in question keeps on replying in his/her farewell thread, and then he/she questions everyone else who actually deigns to respond to his/her annoying farewell post because they either support the game or because they aren't emotionally distraught over his/her (allegedly) imminent departure.

After a volley of back & forths in the farewell thread, the forumite who threatened to permanently leave, or promised to leave anyway, then changes his/her mind and says "Nyah, I'm staying!!!!" - basically sticking around just to spite everyone. It's not like he/she ever meant to leave anyway, he/she just wanted to cause some drama.

/end translation

That kind of crap gets old and annoying - seriously.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 20 octobre 2010 - 10:49 .

[Stanley Woo]

We see it after each game release and after each new game announcement. Some are more dramatic than others, but they still fit the pattern.

[Felene]

Bobad wrote...

Felene wrote...

LOL! This thread is turning into Mr. Gaider 's"THAT GUY" thread with bunch of THAT GUY posting "I AM NOT THAT GUY".

That Guy?, they're only regret is that they had Boneitis?

You lost me, I don't watch the Simpsons.

EDIT: I know its Futurama now. Thanks Saibh.

Modifié par Felene, 21 octobre 2010 - 12:07 .