Aller au contenu

Photo

The Circle and the Chantry


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
57 réponses à ce sujet

#51
Tigress M

Tigress M
  • Members
  • 2 400 messages

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Racial discrimination in the US wasn't based on the fact that any given black person was capable of boiling anyone's blood at will or could on any given bad day or in bad straights might lose or trade control and become a WMD attacking the populace.

Conner wasn't even a trained mage, and certainly wasn't malevolent, and he nearly destroyed Redcliffe, and more.


Actually, part of the propaganda used to support the stance of segregation was that blacks carried communicable diseases which is why they were regulated to using specific water fountains and sitting in "designated" areas on buses and such.  And it could be argued that by claiming such nonsense, blacks were forced to live in the least sanitary areas of cities and such, because they were allowed nowhere else to live, thereby creating unhealthy living conditions which added "validity" to the propaganda.  Once again creating a spiraling effect.

And regarding Connor, I do not believe he would have been in the same position to have succumbed to the demon's temptation had things been different.  If the circle were not a life of imprisonment but instead a place of study, I have a feeling Isolde would have sent Connor off to learn to control his magic from the getgo, knowing he could be returned to her once he'd finished his training.  Instead, she chose to keep him a secret for fear of losing him forever, only finding him training from an apostate apprentice and blood mage, to boot.  And therein lies another Chantry self fulfilled prophecy, confirming that magic is "evil".

Where does it end?  

#52
LobselVith8

LobselVith8
  • Members
  • 16 993 messages

ejoslin wrote...

You cannot know what has happened in Haven's history, but I'm done arguing it. In 900 years so much can happen, you just don't know. An demon is not necessarily going to do what was done to the circle or Redcliff -- look at the desire demon in the circle giving that templar a bit of happiness.


The town is still standing, the population hasn't been deciminated to annihilation, that's all I'm saying. You're arguing abominations can happen, and I'm arguing that there isn't anything that's happened that the current forces of mages and non-mage Reavers can't handle, since the town is still intact and the populace is still around.

ejoslin wrote...

You could also argue that abominations themselves aren't bad. After all, Wynne is an abomination.


Wynne might be the kind of abomination that one would find in Rivain, actually. Genitivi's codex makes reference to the mages there allowing spirits to inhabit their body.

#53
ejoslin

ejoslin
  • Members
  • 11 745 messages

LobselVith8 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

You cannot know what has happened in Haven's history, but I'm done arguing it. In 900 years so much can happen, you just don't know. An demon is not necessarily going to do what was done to the circle or Redcliff -- look at the desire demon in the circle giving that templar a bit of happiness.


The town is still standing, the population hasn't been deciminated to annihilation, that's all I'm saying. You're arguing abominations can happen, and I'm arguing that there isn't anything that's happened that the current forces of mages and non-mage Reavers can't handle, since the town is still intact and the populace is still around.

ejoslin wrote...

You could also argue that abominations themselves aren't bad. After all, Wynne is an abomination.


Wynne might be the kind of abomination that one would find in Rivain, actually. Genitivi's codex makes reference to the mages there allowing spirits to inhabit their body.


I realize you only quoted what you were responding to, but you did leave out the main point of my argument here (which I've posted several times) so I'll post it again.  

It's not that things will necessarily be damaged, but the potential is SO great and the amount of destruction that can be done is so tremendous.


And this is very true.  The potential to destroy cities is there, and it's not a remote possibility.  Just because you can point to a bunch of crazies who murder as a regular practice, without knowing ANYTHING else about them, and saying their town hasn't been leveled so, nope, no abominations there, is not a good argument.

#54
LobselVith8

LobselVith8
  • Members
  • 16 993 messages

ejoslin wrote...

I realize you only quoted what you were responding to, but you did leave out the main point of my argument here (which I've posted several times) so I'll post it again.  

ejoslin wrote...
It's not that things will necessarily be damaged, but the potential is SO great and the amount of destruction that can be done is so tremendous.


And this is very true.  The potential to destroy cities is there, and it's not a remote possibility.  Just because you can point to a bunch of crazies who murder as a regular practice, without knowing ANYTHING else about them, and saying their town hasn't been leveled so, nope, no abominations there, is not a good argument.


And yet without the Chantry or the templars, Arlathan and the Dales functioned well. In fact, it was the Chantry that destroyed the Dales - according to the Dalish, templars were sent in to the Dales because they kicked out their missionaries. And the Dalish clans and Rivain have mages in leadership positions, and abominations haven't levelled the nation or the town. So far, the only real catalyst for destruction has been the Chantry, destroying the Dales and outlawing an elven religion.

#55
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 684 messages

Xilizhra wrote...

These reforms are a decent idea, but there's no reason that the Chantry should be in charge of it. Templars are useful, but could be employed directly by the Circle, without attachment to the Chantry, if this severing could be accomplished.

I'd also allow them to inherit titles of nobility.

The Circle is even less fit to control the templars than the Chantry. It would be like letting politicians write codes of ethics.

#56
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 684 messages

Tigress M wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Racial discrimination in the US wasn't based on the fact that any given black person was capable of boiling anyone's blood at will or could on any given bad day or in bad straights might lose or trade control and become a WMD attacking the populace.

Conner wasn't even a trained mage, and certainly wasn't malevolent, and he nearly destroyed Redcliffe, and more.


Actually, part of the propaganda used to support the stance of segregation was that blacks carried communicable diseases which is why they were regulated to using specific water fountains and sitting in "designated" areas on buses and such.  And it could be argued that by claiming such nonsense, blacks were forced to live in the least sanitary areas of cities and such, because they were allowed nowhere else to live, thereby creating unhealthy living conditions which added "validity" to the propaganda.  Once again creating a spiraling effect.

Myths of miscenegation are hardly the same level or validity as literal WMD potential.

And regarding Connor, I do not believe he would have been in the same position to have succumbed to the demon's temptation had things been different.  If the circle were not a life of imprisonment but instead a place of study, I have a feeling Isolde would have sent Connor off to learn to control his magic from the getgo, knowing he could be returned to her once he'd finished his training.  Instead, she chose to keep him a secret for fear of losing him forever, only finding him training from an apostate apprentice and blood mage, to boot.  And therein lies another Chantry self fulfilled prophecy, confirming that magic is "evil".

Looking too hard at the individual, not at the concept. I haven't seen a good case yet why mages shouldn't have mandetory training. What world do you see in which Connor would not be taken away?

Where does it end?  

When someone finds a way to make a Tranquility process with no other drawback besides no dreams.

#57
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 684 messages

LobselVith8 wrote...

I think the racial discimination would fit better with the treatment of the elves, but that's another discussion for another time. Using the Connor example is exactly why the Chantry's treatment of mages needs to be changed: they condition mages to gather as much power as possible in order to survive against the templars that are sent to hunt them down. If the Chantry didn't imprison people because of their magical ability and spread its view of magic as evil, then Isolde never would have feared for Connor or thought that there was something wrong with him. Nobody is saying mages shouldn't be properly trained; people are arguing against imprisoning them for being mages.

Then don't use racial discrimination as your analogy. If anything, use quarantine.

Making the system nicer (the reforms I suggested: keeping contact, for example) won't negate the need for forced training, and that's as much what Isolde was afraid of as anything else. She was going to loser her child if Connor left. No change on the Chantry's part can reasonably change that Connor would have to be taken along until at least adulthood.

People like Isolde, who love their children so much they don't want to let them go, will always circumvent the rules needed to protect everyone.


And there's also a reason to fear the Chantry as well - ask the Dalish. According to them, the Chantry sent the templars into the Dales because they kicked out their missionaries after refusing to convert to their religion. What happened after the Dales was taken over by Orlais? Their religion was outlawed. Should the lives of mages be placed with an institution that openly condemms them?

The lives of mages should be planned by the insitution that can handle them while mitigating the dangers to the populace. You can want any changes you want and you can wish anything you wish, but the Chantry remains the only non-magical instution to allow the Mages to live with some form of security without losing their tongues.


The Chantry lockup is entirely unnecessary. There are mages in Rivain with leadership positions,

Rivian is small, backwater, far from Ferelden, and culturally different. What goes wrong there doesn't hurt as many people. Their shamanistic policies also including deliberate abomination risks.

Now, if you think that Ferelden's monarchs and populace will stand by and invite the Rivian shamans to take over one of their major institutions...

there were elven mages who were in leadership positions of Arlathan and the Dales (and their descendants are now the Keepers of the nomadic Dalish clans).

We don't know anything about how the elves raise their mages: we have nothing to suggest they aren't also trained in isolation, or pass similar rituals to the Harrowing. Certainly abominations have been a problem with every society.

Father Eirik was a mage and the head of the Haven Chantry, and Kolgrim may be a mage since he knew about the fate of the Urn. There's no reason mages shouldn't be permitted to govern themselves.

...Haven is your idea of an enlightened, safe model for society at large?

It's been nearly a 900 years of the same system and nothing has changed, and nothing ever will unless someone does something to implement that change.

Right. Where have I heard that before...

Ah, yes. The blood mage rebellion. That turned out so well for everyone involved. Social reform, one abominationed-filled circle at a time.

#58
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 684 messages

LobselVith8 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I realize you only quoted what you were responding to, but you did leave out the main point of my argument here (which I've posted several times) so I'll post it again.  

ejoslin wrote...
It's not that things will necessarily be damaged, but the potential is SO great and the amount of destruction that can be done is so tremendous.


And this is very true.  The potential to destroy cities is there, and it's not a remote possibility.  Just because you can point to a bunch of crazies who murder as a regular practice, without knowing ANYTHING else about them, and saying their town hasn't been leveled so, nope, no abominations there, is not a good argument.


And yet without the Chantry or the templars, Arlathan and the Dales functioned well. In fact, it was the Chantry that destroyed the Dales - according to the Dalish, templars were sent in to the Dales because they kicked out their missionaries. And the Dalish clans and Rivain have mages in leadership positions, and abominations haven't levelled the nation or the town. So far, the only real catalyst for destruction has been the Chantry, destroying the Dales and outlawing an elven religion.

What makes you think Arlathan and the Dales didn't have their own mage-monitoring/suppression systems?