112 réponses à ce sujet

[TelexFerra]

Was it really necessary for Shepard and company to destroy the entire collector species? We are told that the space station is their homeworld, which means that every collector is on there. Their scientists, their ship builders, their CHILDREN must therefore also be there. (Or on that ship)

Was it necessary for them all to die simply because they were indoctrinated? Granted, Shepard could not have found Harbinger to prevent the continuance* of indoctrination without risking human lives in the Terminus colonies, but were there not less genocidal options?

Why not...

...destroy the Omega-4 relay?
...just destroy what looks to be their one-and-only ship?
...BLOCKADE the Omega-4 relay with some stationary thanix canons (if it cannot eb destroyed)

Was genocide really necessary?

*We know one can begin to recover from indoctrination, evidenced by Shepard being able to convicne Saren to kill himself at the end of ME1.

[Elyvern]

Shouldn't you be asking that question first at Noveria regarding the Rachni?

[cachx]

Mordin makes a pretty strong case that Collectors are no more than tools at the service of the Reapers (no culture, no art, no religion and so on).

On the other hand, the Collector General looking confused after the control is released kinda hints at the opposite.

Not sure what to think about that.

[TelexFerra]

It seemed to me that the Collectors were taking orders from the General, who had control directly assumed by Harbinger.



How could Mordin know much about their culture if they only come out every now and then and procure organic specimens?

[cachx]

Here's the dialogue

EDIT: whoops, apparently I still don't know how to embed Youtube videos =/

Modifié par cachx, 20 octobre 2010 - 07:00 .

[Praetor Knight]

Valid questions, I guess it would boil down to if the Collectors were simply cloned (and / or tank-bred full grown) or if they are like other sapient species with family and children.



Only Harbinger spoke to Shep, but who is to say they, like you ask if they have independent thoughts or not?

[Tranceptor]

cachx wrote...

On the other hand, the Collector General looking confused after the control is released kinda hints at the opposite.

Not sure what to think about that.

Same here, that gets me on each playthrough. I always feel really bad about blowing up the base because of it.



But they are an enemy force for every moment up until that point, if you didn't stop them then they would keep fighting for the Reapers. There really isn't a way around it.



As for there being collector 'children', I always just figured that after a certain point they had been changed so much that the Reapers could just grow them.

[TelexFerra]

Yes, they can grow them, but the ones who have just been grown may not necessarily be mature yet for combat.



The Collectors have some semblance of free will or else they wouldn't be able to fight effectively in combat situations or carry out complicated trade deals. They are not automatons.



They are the enemy force up tot hat point? Again, why not just put a bunch of thanix cannons next to the Omega-4 relay to destroy any collector ship.

[Purge the heathens]

Tranceptor wrote...

As for there being collector 'children', I always just figured that after a certain point they had been changed so much that the Reapers could just grow them.

EDI mentions cloning aboard the Collector cruiser, so I guess no children. Mordin makes the comparion to husks and husks are, for all we know, beyond saving.

[TheBlackBaron]

"No glands, replaced by tech. No digestive tract, replaced by tech. No souls, replaced by tech!"



So, yes, "genocide" was probably doing them a favor, if can even call wiping out what amounted to organic automatons genocide. Talk about your bleeding hearts.

[TelexFerra]

How does he know that every single one of them is like that? Can he know for sure? I'm sure he came up with similar rationalizations when he sterilized the Krogan.

[Schattenkeil]

Firstly: The Protheans were eradicated by the reapers. I wasn't so sure that you really caught all of them and I think what you did was honoring the memory of the protheans - whatever memory remains. These abominations were a parody of the culture they were created from, no culture on their own. They were the wreckages of what has long been destroyed. Killing a collector is no worse than destroying a husk. It's ending a parody of actual life.

Secondly: They are the enemy, whether by choice or the unability to make a choice anymore as well. And therefor must be defeated. And this is the only true defeat. It's not like you didn't spare those who surrendered. Just non of them did surrender, so you fought them til the end. That line of thinking was exactly the problem with the rachni in the original rachni war - but how do you spare an enemy who will never stop fighting you? How show mercy to an enemy who's unable to even comprehend the concept, or realize defeat?

Modifié par Schattenkeil, 20 octobre 2010 - 07:39 .

[TelexFerra]

Defeating your enemy does not necessarily mean murdering every last one of them. This is not how a civil society operates.



By blockading the O4 relay, Cerberus/TheCouncil/The Alliance could eliminate the Collectors as a threat, and leave them until after the greater Reaper threat has been dealt with.

[TheBlackBaron]

TelexFerra wrote...

How does he know that every single one of them is like that? Can he know for sure? I'm sure he came up with similar rationalizations when he sterilized the Krogan.

Again, the Collectors are at the point where the Reapers are basically popping them off an assembly line, with extensive genetic reconstruction and technical enhancement/compensation. Collector "children" most likely do not even exist. Think of how Okeer was bringing full grown krogan out of tanks.

Furthermore, Saren was indoctrinated for a relatively short period of time compared to the thousands of years the Collector race has been, on top of the cybernetics. Saren also had a great deal more freedom than any of the Collectors, due to needing to be able to operate as an independent agent and outwardly maintain his normal demeanor.

[Purge the heathens]

TelexFerra wrote...

Defeating your enemy does not necessarily mean murdering every last one of them. This is not how a civil society operates.

By blockading the O4 relay, Cerberus/TheCouncil/The Alliance could eliminate the Collectors as a threat, and leave them until after the greater Reaper threat has been dealt with.

A blockade would be an action of... questionable intelligence, so to speak. There's an enemy, holed up in a base with who knows what wondrous and horrifying technological possibilities we can't even begin to anticipate and you suggest just sitting there and hoping they behave.

[TelexFerra]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

TelexFerra wrote...

How does he know that every single one of them is like that? Can he know for sure? I'm sure he came up with similar rationalizations when he sterilized the Krogan.

Again, the Collectors are at the point where the Reapers are basically popping them off an assembly line, with extensive genetic reconstruction and technical enhancement/compensation. Collector "children" most likely do not even exist. Think of how Okeer was bringing full grown krogan out of tanks.

Thank you for proving my point. The Krogan we met outside of Jedore's facility was not belligerent, actually he was quite pleasant. They're not all the same simply because they are tankbred.

[CroGamer002]

Hmh, Collectors are nothing more then Husks.

I mean really it's like in Dead Rising 2 when some idiots are fighting for zombie rights which zombies hours later killed most of them and thousands of else.

[TheBlackBaron]

TelexFerra wrote...
Thank you for proving my point. The Krogan we met outside of Jedore's facility was not belligerent, actually he was quite pleasant. They're not all the same simply because they are tankbred.

He was also not indoctrinated from the moment of his creation with a combination of psychological suggestion and cybernetic enchancement. Thank you for completely missing the point.

[Purge the heathens]

Okeer's many krogan were failures he cast aside. Okeer wanted one perfect soldier, an individual. The Collectors likely went for disposable drones. Harbinger has a line that points to this: "Kill one and one hundred will replace it."

[Tranceptor]

TelexFerra wrote...



Yes, they can grow them, but the ones who have just been grown may not necessarily be mature yet for combat.

Nor does that mean they are little collector children running playing with toy collector guns. Most like they have all the selfawareness of a ham sandwich.

The Collectors have some semblance of free will or else they wouldn't be able to fight effectively in combat situations or carry out complicated trade deals. They are not automatons.

They wouldn't need to be any more self aware or have more free will than a V.I. to do either of those things effectively. From waht was shown in game, the collector 'general' had no free will up until the moment I blew up the base.

They are the enemy force up tot hat point?

The point at which Harbinger ceased to inhabit the collector 'general' right before I blew him up. Such a sad scene.

Again, why not just put a bunch of thanix cannons next to the Omega-4 relay to destroy any collector ship.

Money, resources, man power, authority (as in who has the right to set up a defence like that in the Terminus Systems). What about if/when the cannons are over come? What then? You will have to fight the collectors all over again, perhaps in combination with the next thing the Reapers throw at you.



The collectors at this point are no longer Protheans as Mordin points out, they are shells for the Reapers will.

[AntenDS]

This argument is ridiculous. The Collectors were puppets and vessels of Harbinger just like the keepers; who are puppets of the Reapers at large. The Collectors started out as indoctrinated Protheans but that was 50,000 years ago.

[Schattenkeil]

Besides, the collectors base was first and foremost a base of operations, a set of machinary to consume humans - may it be by transforming them to husks or integrating them into the collector and manufacturing war material. Even if nothing of what has been said about the collectors were true, it is a perfectly valid military target.

Okeer's krogans seemed to have a mind of their own, they were not hostile, they did not fight humanity and throughout the galaxy itself. And there was no means in them to externally control them, they were not subject to reaper indoctrination for fifty thousand years.

If you try to discern right and wrong, you should try to think careful, not jump to catchy conclusions. Genocide is a strong word. But the collectors are no people on their own. You cannot commit genocide on them. Genocide was what the reapers did to the protheans and then created the collectors out of them.

Modifié par Schattenkeil, 20 octobre 2010 - 08:18 .

[Russalka]

Seems more like mercy to me.

[maxernst]

Elyvern wrote...

Shouldn't you be asking that question first at Noveria regarding the Rachni?

I see the Rachni situation a little differently, though.  For one thing, the Rachni were nearly wiped out long before humanity made contact with the other council races, so my Shepard feels he doesn't know the truth of that situation (or the circumstances under which the genophage was inflicted on the Krogans).  I'm reluctant to assume that entire species are impossible to deal with and deserve extinction because of what's in official histories written by their enemies. 

[AntiChri5]

Are you bloody serious?

What about the human children melted into slushie by your precious Collectors?

They want to wipe out your entire species, have less sentience and sapience then a LOKI mech and you are hesitating because these mindless cloned beings might have families?