112 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

wizardryforever wrote...

The look on the Collector General's face when Harbinger RELEASES CONTROL is so sad that I almost feel for them.  That look seems to say "don't leave me.  please don't leave me."  That seems to indicate that at least he had some kind of consciousness, though I bet he was dominated by Harbinger for most of his life, and so did not know any better.  Their whole race was pretty much under the control of Harbinger DIRECTLY, or indirectly.  So I don't feel that sorry for them that I would hesitate killing them, though I would like to take one alive to peacefully study (not dissect).

Yes the scene with the Collector General's was rather sad. (Didn't help that my roommate was playing KHBBS's Enchanted Dominion in the background.)

True I would still kill them. But...I guess it's more of a mercy kill in my eyes. 

And Harbinger really needs to stop taunting Shep. As Garrus said all it does is ****** Shep off. 

[fongiel24]

When I read the title of this thread I figured it would be something about the krogan or the rachni but the Collectors? Seriously?



We don't have any evidence that the Collectors are anything more than organic killing machines. Would this even have been an issue if instead of repurposed, mindless clones, Harbinger had been using an army of Terminators? I felt worse about consigning my first car to the crusher and that thing was a put on earth by satan himself to torment me for my crime of secretly liking the Backstreet Boys.



The final scene with the Collector General was interesting, but there's still no evidence that its reaction to Harbinger releasing control was anything but an instinctive response. Harbinger stops controlling it like it was a puppet, causing its muscles to spasm. It detects a bright light (the explosion) and turns its head. None of this requires any higher thinking processes.

[Gibb_Shepard]

What? They are ALL complete monsters, not just some, ALL of them want to turn you into slushies. Yes genocide was necessary, and even if i had the choice to simply cut them off by destroying the O4 relay, i would have gone in anyway just to make sure every last one of those bastards were dead.

This kind of mercy is what gives the paragon players a bad name.

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 21 octobre 2010 - 06:52 .

[Nightwriter]

... Does that mean it gives paragons a bad name that I wanted to keep the Thorian?

*glances around self-consciously*

Seriously, it was thousands upon thousands of years old! The knowledge it could've given us! The history! I wanted to, like, contain it and then ship it off to an enormous research facility for study! It killed me to destroy it. Killed me.

And it even irritated me that the only thing my Shepard was allowed to say was "don't tell me you feel sorry for it" or "me kill bad monster me like kill".

[Onyx Jaguar]

The Thorian kind of forced matters

[Ryzaki]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

The Thorian kind of forced matters

This. 

And my Adept was not pleased at going through all those creepers. So yeah. I had no problem slaughtering the thing. 

[pf17456]

I wondered if the Collectors, by doing genetic studies/tests on their own, were not in fact attempting to re-engineer themselves back into Protheans. They were afterall known for their interest in genetic anomalies.

However they were pretty much owned by Harbinger.

[Tranceptor]

Nightwriter wrote...



... Does that mean it gives paragons a bad name that I wanted to keep the Thorian?



*glances around self-consciously*

Nah, I'm with you on that. I would have liked to have convinced it to free the people and let me take them else where.



But it just wouldn't listen and I had to savagely murder it and turn it to mulch.

[Gabey5]

the protheans died a long time ago. read the latest mass effect novel being an indoctrinated husk is hell

[Atmosfear3]

How do any of you know the collector general, after being released by Harbinger, wasn't evil to begin with? For all we know he could have been thinking, "YOU BASTARD HARBINGER! I WILL HAVE MY REVENGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!"



Anyways, back to the OP:



The collectors are clones. Mordin's explanation tells you this. Actually they are less than clones. Most of their bodies have been replaced by tech. They don't even have a survival instinct and simply fight until their bodies are destroyed.

I'm pretty sure the collectors have no children. Looking at Grunt's recruitment, if Okeer could breed them full-sized, I'm pretty sure Collectors don't poop out of the clone machine as babies to be raised into full adult-sized collectors.

You can't destroy the relays. A supernova couldn't even take one out and simply threw it out of the system (Mu relay).

[Nightwriter]

Wanting revenge on the guys who turned your whole race into a handful of soulless automaton slaves isn't evil imo.

Tranceptor wrote...

Nah, I'm with you on that. I would have liked to have convinced it to free the people and let me take them else where.

But it just wouldn't listen and I had to savagely murder it and turn it to mulch.

Convince it, use force, I would be willing to do anything if I could just preserve it.

But no, it had to go and force my hand, the one test subject I'd probably actually have been willing to give to Cerberus for study...

[KendallX23]

thorian,collectors...never felt guilty or anything like that for killing them...and i mostly play paragon Shepards...i only freed the Rachni cause i thought it would create chaos and more enemies to fight in the future...but oh well they are great as allies too....that and killing a queen that can't defend itself is not my style...

The collectors are former protheans...don't see it as genocide...more like an act of mercy

[Aedan_Cousland]

cachx wrote...

Mordin makes a pretty strong case that Collectors are no more than tools at the service of the Reapers (no culture, no art, no religion and so on).
On the other hand, the Collector General looking confused after the control is released kinda hints at the opposite.
Not sure what to think about that.

This.

The scene with the Collector general did seem to hint at the Collectors being at least somewhat self-aware, so my guess is that whatever process creates them also so heavily indoctrinates them that there can be no common ground or peaceful coexistance with them. At the time of their destruction there is no cure for indoctrination. Any fans of Orson Scott Card here? I'd classify the Collectors as varelse.
 
That, and we don't know to what degree the Collectors are self aware. As they don't have culture, religion, or art as Mordin noted, if they are sapient at all it must be must be a much more limited form that when is found among the other sapient species in the galaxy. They seem to exist only to serve the Reapers.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 22 octobre 2010 - 04:10 .

[curly haired boy]

the protheans died out 50,000 years ago.



the collectors are a creation of the reapers. i have no qualms destroying them.

[Jabarai]

curly haired boy wrote...

the protheans died out 50,000 years ago.

the collectors are a creation of the reapers. i have no qualms destroying them.

The Protheans seemed to be wonderful people and the Reapers turned them into something completely different. To me that's the worst kind of cruelty, deserving destruction of both the Collectors and Reapers.

It's curious, though, that I can hate the Collectors but not the Reapers, especially seeing that the former were simply tools used by the latter. It is as if they're a force of nature - an old code of the Milky Way - beyond such emotions.

[curly haired boy]

Jabarai wrote...

curly haired boy wrote...

the protheans died out 50,000 years ago.

the collectors are a creation of the reapers. i have no qualms destroying them.

The Protheans seemed to be wonderful people and the Reapers turned them into something completely different. To me that's the worst kind of cruelty, deserving destruction of both the Collectors and Reapers.

It's curious, though, that I can hate the Collectors but not the Reapers, especially seeing that the former were simply tools used by the latter. It is as if they're a force of nature - an old code of the Milky Way - beyond such emotions.

it's the opposite for me. i hate the reapers, and really hope they never become sympathetic in any way. collectors? i'm emotionless about them for the most part. they didn't have a choice in helping the reapers, UNLIKE SOME SYNTHETIC RACES.

[crooked]

Jabarai wrote...

curly haired boy wrote...

the protheans died out 50,000 years ago.

the collectors are a creation of the reapers. i have no qualms destroying them.

The Protheans seemed to be wonderful people and the Reapers turned them into something completely different. To me that's the worst kind of cruelty, deserving destruction of both the Collectors and Reapers.

It's curious, though, that I can hate the Collectors but not the Reapers, especially seeing that the former were simply tools used by the latter. It is as if they're a force of nature - an old code of the Milky Way - beyond such emotions.

That is indeed how they view themselves. But to me they are just an ancient race of machines. Even if they were "gods" or  "forces of nature", that would never justify their actions and cruelty. They are indeed beyond emotions, but that is not something to be applauded by my book. That's why I loved ME (mainly 1), you are defending your right to feel, live and progress from an ancient formidable evil that wishes to deny us those things. You are fighting for your right to be a sentient being.

[Theoristitis]

TelexFerra wrote...

Why not...

...destroy the Omega-4 relay?
...just destroy what looks to be their one-and-only ship?
...BLOCKADE the Omega-4 relay with some stationary thanix canons (if it cannot eb destroyed)

Was genocide really necessary?

*We know one can begin to recover from indoctrination, evidenced by Shepard being able to convicne Saren to kill himself at the end of ME1.

The Mu Relay got nailed by a Supernova and didn't even get scratched. Destroying the Omega-4 Relay might require a tad more firepower than all of organic life combined has.
We do destroy what looks to be their one-and-only ship, but we do not know that said ship is, in fact, their only ship. If it's not, then we've only slowed them down. If it is their only ship...then maybe they'll just build another.
Blockading the Omega-4 Relay sounds feasible, but with what ships? Terminus Systems won't let Council, Alliance, or any authority force anywhere NEAR their space, let alone the relay, and all the pirates outside Council space wouldn't have the firepower to destroy a Collector cruiser. Authority figures don't believe us enough to risk war with Terminus anyway.

Was genocide necessary? The Collectors are waging total war against humanity. The Reapers are waging total war against all organic life. If we don't wage total war back, they will always have the upper hand. Not a single Collector attempted to surrender, or in fact did anything whatsoever that was not very related to the nano-processing or otherwise killing of humans.
To quote Saren (an incredibly strong-willed being, mind you): "Sovereign is too strong." While Sovereign lives, Saren cannot escape indoctrination without his pistol. How much chance do the Collectors, who are cloned and built to be mindless tools, have of breaking Harbinger's hold? How exactly can we break his hold? And until we do, and there is no evidence whatsoever that we are capable of doing so, the Collectors are his weapons, and they're pointed right at us.

The Rachni (who were, incidentally, also at one point tools of the Reapers) were a similar case of total war. They broke indoctrination (or even influence, it may not have been direct control) by being exterminated. Indoctrination is not something that most creatures have a good history of getting rid of.

[fongiel24]

Nightwriter wrote...

... Does that mean it gives paragons a bad name that I wanted to keep the Thorian?

*glances around self-consciously*

Seriously, it was thousands upon thousands of years old! The knowledge it could've given us! The history! I wanted to, like, contain it and then ship it off to an enormous research facility for study! It killed me to destroy it. Killed me.

And it even irritated me that the only thing my Shepard was allowed to say was "don't tell me you feel sorry for it" or "me kill bad monster me like kill".

I always wanted to say this but I was afraid I'd get funny looks. Sure the Thorian sounds pretty horrific, but just exterminating it felt like such a waste. In a fight with an enemy we know virtually nothing about, it might have been useful to study and question a sapient being that had lived through at least one of the Reapers' cycles of extinction.

This might sound coldhearted, but if they had given me a choice between leaving the colonists on Feros to their fate so I could preserve the Thorian for recovery later and saving them as we did in ME1, I might have taken the first option. Humanity can replace a few hundred colonists but for all we know this is the only Thorian in the entire galaxy.

Modifié par fongiel24, 22 octobre 2010 - 02:41 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Elyvern wrote...

Shouldn't you be asking that question first at Noveria regarding the Rachni?

Oh please, 'twas just one creature.

Nightwriter wrote...

... Does that mean it gives paragons a bad name that I wanted to keep the Thorian?

Nah, because you're one of a kind and thus not to be labeled as a mere paragon. Just like how Shand isn't representative of your average Renegade.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Yeah you can't really take preemtive Genocide, or future genocide as that really doesn't make sense. Killing that one Rachni wouldn't really be Genocide as it is one and assuming many would be just that an assumption.

[crooked]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Yeah you can't really take preemtive Genocide, or future genocide as that really doesn't make sense. Killing that one Rachni wouldn't really be Genocide as it is one and assuming many would be just that an assumption.

While the term genocide might be hard to apply to this specific case since it's a fictional event, by definition it doesn't NEED a massmurdering to be applied. It's just that real events of genocide have been about massmurders.

[KenLyns]

Well, now I've seen it all - stupid liberals who think wiping out the Collectors was unnecessary, and stupid conservatives who think resurrected Shepard lacks a soul... For ME3, Bioware ought to change the morality meter to Democrat<>Republican. 

Modifié par KenLyns, 22 octobre 2010 - 05:10 .

[TheBlackBaron]

KenLyns wrote...

Well, now I've seen it all - stupid liberals who think wiping out the Collectors was unnecessary, and stupid conservatives who think resurrected Shepard lacks a soul... For ME3, Bioware ought to change the morality meter to DemocratRepublican. 

I'm sure the Democrat end would wind up getting the Paragon  outcomes, and we all know where that would lead. :innocent:

[KenLyns]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

I'm sure the Democrat end would wind up getting the Paragon  outcomes, and we all know where that would lead. :innocent:

Yes, the Citadel Tower rammed by a tourist ship hijacked by batarians...