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[Inquisitor Recon]

But Democrat Shepard would cut the Systems Alliance defense budget and lose to the reapers because he wanted to pay for naming everything on a planet after Udina.

[Nightwriter]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

... Does that mean it gives paragons a bad name that I wanted to keep the Thorian?

Nah, because you're one of a kind and thus not to be labeled as a mere paragon. Just like how Shand isn't representative of your average Renegade.

I am to paragons... what Shand is to renegades.

I am not sure this is a good thing.

[fongiel24]

ReconTeam wrote...

But Democrat Shepard would cut the Systems Alliance defense budget and lose to the reapers because he wanted to pay for naming everything on a planet after Udina.

Neither Democrats nor Republics are big into slashing the U.S. defence budget. It's just a stereotype that Democrats are doves who hate the military. Keep in mind it was a Democrat who got the U.S. into Vietnam, another Democrat who stepped it up, and a Republican who got them out. I think U.S. defence spending has actually been increasing under the Obama administration.

Nightwriter wrote...

I am to paragons... what Shand is to renegades.

I am not sure this is a good thing. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/crying.png[/smilie]

I don't get it. Who is Shand and what is s/he to renegades?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

"Protheans dead. Collectors just final insult." Mordin makes the issue abundantly clear. The Collectors are essentially all dead already. You can't really exterminate them, the reapers already did that.

[TheBlackBaron]

fongiel24 wrote...
Neither Democrats nor Republics are big into slashing the U.S. defence budget. It's just a stereotype that Democrats are doves who hate the military. Keep in mind it was a Democrat who got the U.S. into Vietnam, another Democrat who stepped it up, and a Republican who got them out. I think U.S. defence spending has actually been increasing under the Obama administration.

It partly comes from Reagan, a Republican, being responsible for the US reaching the height of its global reach in the 80's, and then the "peace dividend" and budget cuts coming in the 90's under Clinton, a Democrat.

Also, neither LBJ nor Nixon is looked upon with particular fondness by their respective party.

[Nightwriter]

fongiel24 wrote...

I don't get it. Who is Shand and what is s/he to renegades?

Well I could explain, but I'm afraid Pacifien would call it off topic social yammering and replace it with green letters.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

"Protheans dead. Collectors just final insult." Mordin makes the issue abundantly clear. The Collectors are essentially all dead already. You can't really exterminate them, the reapers already did that.

I totally agree with this.

The only Collector I "felt bad" for was the Collector General, at the end, but there was really nothing I could do.

[GuardianAngel470]

Nightwriter wrote...

fongiel24 wrote...

I don't get it. Who is Shand and what is s/he to renegades?

Well I could explain, but I'm afraid Pacifien would call it off topic social yammering and replace it with green letters.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

"Protheans dead. Collectors just final insult." Mordin makes the issue abundantly clear. The Collectors are essentially all dead already. You can't really exterminate them, the reapers already did that.

I totally agree with this.

The only Collector I "felt bad" for was the Collector General, at the end, but there was really nothing I could do.

Me too. And honestly, if you aren't willing to take the word of a salarian genius' on matters of his speciality, what do you have him on the ship for.

[KendallX23]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

fongiel24 wrote...

I don't get it. Who is Shand and what is s/he to renegades?

Well I could explain, but I'm afraid Pacifien would call it off topic social yammering and replace it with green letters.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

"Protheans dead. Collectors just final insult." Mordin makes the issue abundantly clear. The Collectors are essentially all dead already. You can't really exterminate them, the reapers already did that.

I totally agree with this.

The only Collector I "felt bad" for was the Collector General, at the end, but there was really nothing I could do.

Me too. And honestly, if you aren't willing to take the word of a salarian genius' on matters of his speciality, what do you have him on the ship for.

    singing ?

[Dean_the_Young]

All these arguments have amounted to is that genocide is perfectly alright if we justify it as necessary and successfully label our opponents as not really worthy of being considered alive in the first place.

Which isn't really new or novel: the Rachni genocide was doubtless considered necessary, the Krogan genophage (which will ultimately be fatal without a cure/wrex's reforms) was necessary and deserved. I strongly doubt there's been any genocide that people didn't consider 'necessary,'and didn't also deligitimize those they were exterminating. Like marking them all as criminals: we kill all our criminals, right?

Call it what it is. The genocide of the Collectors. Still the greater good of the galaxy. Still genocide.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 22 octobre 2010 - 12:19 .

[cihimi]

sigh. it's just a case of "either you kill them first or they WILL kill you". you can call the act "genocide" or whatever you want. that is the necessity. the necessity to survive. if it is killing because of race, gender, orientation, and the like, then that's a different matter.

[AlexXIV]

How can something die that never actually lived? Collerctors look back on a life where none of their actions are their own. And they are bred into obedience for 50.000 years, so what are the chances that the Reapers can't just take over their mind again when they come? Also I don't think Shepard had alot of choice. They were on a suicide mission and even only barely got out of the station alive. The station was no civiliced city, it was a war machine and Reaper factory. You remember, Reapers, who wipe out galactic civilisations in cycles for probably millions of years.

Really silly OP to compare this to genocide. Unless of course you think that every soldier is a murderer. But then again why are you playing a game like this anyway? Shouldn't play something where you just talk to everyone and never use violence? Honestly, think about it. Why do you play games in which you kill people? That's a far bigger concern than blowing up a bloody Reaper factory. I really wish people wouldn't be such hypocrites.

[Christmas Ape]

You can no more genocide the Collectors than you could genocide cruisers. They're a biological construct, a meat puppet made out of the basic genetic structure of the Protheans and fitted with enough Reaper-tech Harbinger can borrow their nervous systems at leisure.



The Reapers' stock in trade is genocide. Shepard's just cleaning up some remnants.

[Aedan_Cousland]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

All these arguments have amounted to is that genocide is perfectly alright if we justify it as necessary and successfully label our opponents as not really worthy of being considered alive in the first place.
.

Assuming the Collectors were a sapient species with free will, it would be xenocide. But all the evidence points to the Collectors not having free will, and there is some doubt as to whether they are even completely sapient. As noted their species has no culture of it's own, no art, no music, no identity other than as single-minded servants of the Reapers. They've been genetically and cybernetically altered for that purpose.

Science fiction writer Orson Scott Card created a Hierarchy of Foreignness for his universe, that could be applied to Mass Effect.

Utlanning - Strangers of one's own species and one's own world, community, or culture. For example, another human from Earth who is from a different city, province or nation.

Framling - Strangers from one's own species but from another world. For example a human born on on Mars.

Ramen -  Strangers from another species who are capable of communication and peaceful coexistance with humanity. An example of this in the ME universe would be the Turians, Salarians or the Asari.

Varelse - Strangers from another species with whom communication or peaceful coexistance is not possible. They are true aliens, incapable of common ground with humanity.



The Collectors would be Varelse. They've been altered and indoctrinated to such a degree by the Reapers, that communication and peaceful coexistance with them is impossible.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 22 octobre 2010 - 05:54 .

[Nightwriter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

All these arguments have amounted to is that genocide is perfectly alright if we justify it as necessary and successfully label our opponents as not really worthy of being considered alive in the first place.

Which isn't really new or novel: the Rachni genocide was doubtless considered necessary, the Krogan genophage (which will ultimately be fatal without a cure/wrex's reforms) was necessary and deserved. I strongly doubt there's been any genocide that people didn't consider 'necessary,'and didn't also deligitimize those they were exterminating. Like marking them all as criminals: we kill all our criminals, right?

Call it what it is. The genocide of the Collectors. Still the greater good of the galaxy. Still genocide.

Well, no, not really. This is... not right.

[ObserverStatus]

Nightwriter wrote...

There are no Collector children.

There are no Collector plumbers.

There are no Collector teachers.

There are no Collector civilians.

There are no Collectors who are people.

If you are interested in saving the Collectors somehow you arrived 50,000 years too late.

I agree, it is very, very sad, and if they had only left me some still sentient Collectors to talk to the game would've been much better. The lifelessness of the Collectors is a tragedy in more ways than one.

There are no Collector plumbers? Then who built the pipe that sucked Kelly's liquefied remains into the human reaper I wonder.

[GuardianAngel470]

I think this is an interesting discussion. I would have called the quarian attack on the geth attempted genocide and their near destruction as a result justified so it is interesting to compare that to the genocide of the collectors.



I think I would support my opinion in that aside from Harbinger possessed collectors there is never any indication they are still alive from a philosophical standpoint whereas the geth did ask the types of questions that philosophically define sentience.



But you are right, genocide is still genocide. The original destruction of the Rachni along with the destruction of the Collectors are good examples of really logical choices. They are a threat and you have no reason to believe they will stop being a threat so destroy until you do.



Which is what I thought the Geth did in the morning war. The quarians simply stopped being a threat.



Very interesting discussion.

[lovgreno]

It was the collectors or us. A bad reason I know but they were basicaly soulless robot slaves to the reapers anyway. And remember that there may be other collectors out there, it's a big galaxy. There may even be some left on a unexploded base, there are no reason to assume that radiation wave had to kill them all.

[Praetor Knight]

Don't forget what happened to the Krogan: "Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group."



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

http://en.wikipedia....ide_definitions

http://en.wikipedia....ime_of_Genocide

[Kaiser Shepard]

Nightwriter wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

... Does that mean it gives paragons a bad name that I wanted to keep the Thorian?

Nah, because you're one of a kind and thus not to be labeled as a mere paragon. Just like how Shand isn't representative of your average Renegade.

I am to paragons... what Shand is to renegades.

I am not sure this is a good thing.

Well, that's the funny thing about morality: what's good or bad is ultimately up to you, at least in your own eyes.

Personally I'd say you might be a little too forgiving, but mind you that this coming from one who is willing to pay any price for galactic stability. No risks or loose ends to threathen the status quo.

Shand, Zulu and all them Cerbies are a whole 'nother story, though. I appreciate and admire them in many other discussions, but when it comes their justification and glorification of Cerberus... just damn. Not to mention Shand on the quarians vs geth subject, what is up with that guy and his obsession with Daro'Xen?

But I can honestly see where they're coming from, I'm just not willing to make that Faustian bargain

[Tranceptor]

Nightwriter wrote...



But no, it had to go and force my hand, the one test subject I'd probably actually have been willing to give to Cerberus for study...

I wouldn't go that far, it's ability to control others is just too dangerous. Cerberus is bad enough without offering them freaky mind control powers.



The only thing I'd ever consider giving Cerberus is the finger and a raging case of herpes. Er, not that I have. . .hmmmm, I didn't quite think that one through.

[Tranceptor]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Very interesting discussion.

Yes, my favorite part was when they started talking about cake.

Modifié par Tranceptor, 22 octobre 2010 - 09:42 .

[Nightwriter]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I am to paragons... what Shand is to renegades.

I am not sure this is a good thing.

Well, that's the funny thing about morality: what's good or bad is ultimately up to you, at least in your own eyes.

Personally I'd say you might be a little too forgiving, but mind you that this coming from one who is willing to pay any price for galactic stability. No risks or loose ends to threathen the status quo.

Shand, Zulu and all them Cerbies are a whole 'nother story, though. I appreciate and admire them in many other discussions, but when it comes their justification and glorification of Cerberus... just damn. Not to mention Shand on the quarians vs geth subject, what is up with that guy and his obsession with Daro'Xen?

But I can honestly see where they're coming from, I'm just not willing to make that Faustian bargain

We're the same, but we're opposites.

I am forgiving in a videogame when otherwise I likely would not be.
Shand is vicious in a videogame when otherwise he admits he would not be.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 22 octobre 2010 - 09:52 .

[Dean_the_Young]

My opposite is likely Khan.



Who probably is like that in real life.

[fongiel24]

I wish I had a nemesis . It just seems so unfair that everybody else has one and I don't. It reminds me of elementary school when everyone had a cool 5-speed and I had a crappy BMX.

Since we're on the subject of trying to garner sympathy for our enemies, will anyone feel similarly about the Reapers in ME3 if we do end up wiping them out? Unlike the Collectors they're an intelligent, self-aware race of fully sapient machines who have been around for hundreds of millions of years. They'd have been operating the same way they had for countless millenia, shepherding the development of the galaxy all that time and then all of a sudden some hairless ape from the armpit of the galaxy comes along and wipes them out. How is that any more fair than what Shepard did to the Collectors?

[ISpeakTheTruth]

The thing about the collectors is that they were never going to be free. The Reapers had such a tight control over them that the only way to cut that connection was to kill them. Also Mordin tended to look at the extensive modifications and replacments of parts of their body with tech that they were more like meat puppets.



I always see killing them as merciful because it frees them from the Reapers the only way they can be.