112 réponses à ce sujet

[KenLyns]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Don't forget what happened to the Krogan: "Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide
http://en.wikipedia....ide_definitions
http://en.wikipedia....ime_of_Genocide

Two points of note:
1. The convention specifically does not recognize genocide on a retroactive basis. In the ME universe, the genophage was deployed at around 700-800 AD, centuries before the convention was ratified. 

2. Human-authored conventions assume all men are created equal. This is not true in sci-fi. Krogan birth rate is hundreds of times faster than humans, and each krogan can live ten times as long as a human. Krogans can be considered an invasive species, much like rabbits introduced in Australia. 

Modifié par KenLyns, 23 octobre 2010 - 02:58 .

[GuardianAngel470]

fongiel24 wrote...

I wish I had a nemesis . It just seems so unfair that everybody else has one and I don't. It reminds me of elementary school when everyone had a cool 5-speed and I had a crappy BMX.

Since we're on the subject of trying to garner sympathy for our enemies, will anyone feel similarly about the Reapers in ME3 if we do end up wiping them out? Unlike the Collectors they're an intelligent, self-aware race of fully sapient machines who have been around for hundreds of millions of years. They'd have been operating the same way they had for countless millenia, shepherding the development of the galaxy all that time and then all of a sudden some hairless ape from the armpit of the galaxy comes along and wipes them out. How is that any more fair than what Shepard did to the Collectors?

Not particularly. They're a threat and I have every reason to believe they always will be. I say, burn them with fire.

And also cake.

"At the end of the testing, you will be...missed."

[Agamo45]

The Collectors are just the genetically altered remnants of the Protheans, mindless tools of the Reapers. It wasn't really genocide, and it was completely necessary and justified. They were a race of abominations who had no free will, and they were dangerous. Nor would they ever show you the same mercy.

[Dave of Canada]

Agamo45 wrote...

The Collectors are just the genetically altered remnants of the Protheans, mindless tools of the Reapers. It wasn't really genocide, and it was completely necessary and justified. They were a race of abominations who had no free will, and they were dangerous. Nor would they ever show you the same mercy.

They also couldn't be saved considering they were only clones.

[Praetor Knight]

KenLyns wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Don't forget what happened to the Krogan: "Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide
http://en.wikipedia....ide_definitions
http://en.wikipedia....ime_of_Genocide

Two points of note:
1. The convention specifically does not recognize genocide on a retroactive basis. In the ME universe, the genophage was deployed at around 700-800 AD, centuries before the convention was ratified. 

2. Human-authored conventions assume all men are created equal. This is not true in sci-fi. Krogan birth rate is hundreds of times faster than humans, and each krogan can live ten times as long as a human. Krogans can be considered an invasive species, much like rabbits introduced in Australia. 

Good points, the other Citadel species would not have actively shared in this point of view, especially since they do not have intra-species conflicts that are widely shared or known to other species (thinkin' 'bout Ardat-Yakshi and blood-rage here).

which is also why I posted the links, because the terms being used to describe what is felt about the term genocide seemed to be applied too liberally for something that has such grave importance for any species in question,

although this particular discussion is about the collectors, I also wonder how empathy applies across species, but that may be best served in another discussion.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Wiping out the bothersome tools of your foes is now genocide?

When did this happen?

[TheBlackBaron]

fongiel24 wrote...
I wish I had a nemesis . It just seems so unfair that everybody else has one and I don't. It reminds me of elementary school when everyone had a cool 5-speed and I had a crappy BMX.

Lulz.

Don't feel bad, I've been around since the old BioWare boards and don't have a nemesis. You have to get really polemic on these forums to qualify for nemesis status. 

Since we're on the subject of trying to garner sympathy for our enemies,
will anyone feel similarly about the Reapers in ME3 if we do end up
wiping them out? Unlike the Collectors they're an intelligent,
self-aware race of fully sapient machines who have been around for
hundreds of millions of years. They'd have been operating the same way
they had for countless millenia, shepherding the development of the
galaxy all that time and then all of a sudden some hairless ape from the
armpit of the galaxy comes along and wipes them out. How is that any
more fair than what Shepard did to the Collectors?

Heck, if you're going to feel sympathetic for the Collectors, why not for the Reapers? I'm sure some Paragon could find a reason to believe that the Reapers are actually alright and trustworthy, enough to justify letting them continue their existence.

[fongiel24]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Heck, if you're going to feel sympathetic for the Collectors, why not for the Reapers? I'm sure some Paragon could find a reason to believe that the Reapers are actually alright and trustworthy, enough to justify letting them continue their existence.

Yes, that's my point. If anything we should have far more reason to feel sympathy for the Reapers than the Collectors. Sympathy is completely wasted on the Collectors since they can't even understand the concept of it anymore. The Reapers at least might get a good laugh out of it.

[Ryzaki]

Yes, that's my point. If anything we should have far more reason to feel sympathy for the Reapers than the Collectors. Sympathy is completely wasted on the Collectors since they can't even understand the concept of it anymore. The Reapers at least might get a good laugh out of it.

[/quote]

...The Reapers made the Collectors. Any sympathy I might feel for them would be influenced by that. Personally I don't see how anyone can feel sorry for them after they did that to the Protheans. 

...Besides they're like the Geth without Legion or the Quarian backstory. Just more mooks to kill! 

[anmiro]

Shepard was being dramatic when he called the Protheans slaves to the Reapers. The Collectors are not Protheans anymore. The Collectors aren't even slaves, they are biologically engineered automatons. They have no individuality or concept of identity. I am sympathetic to the Protheans, but they were dead long before Shepard showed up.

[Christmas Ape]

Given the experience with the Beacons and the Cipher, Shepard is closer to the experience of 'being' Prothean than the Collectors are.



As to sympathy for the Reapers, it's simple-minded insanity. They similarly lack art, culture, society; they exist to cull and reproduce. They're a virus on a galactic scale, so alien as to prevent understanding or meaningful communication.

[TheBlackBaron]

fongiel24 wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Heck, if you're going to feel sympathetic for the Collectors, why not for the Reapers? I'm sure some Paragon could find a reason to believe that the Reapers are actually alright and trustworthy, enough to justify letting them continue their existence.

Yes, that's my point. If anything we should have far more reason to feel sympathy for the Reapers than the Collectors. Sympathy is completely wasted on the Collectors since they can't even understand the concept of it anymore. The Reapers at least might get a good laugh out of it.

Yes, I know that was your point - I was agreeing in a sarcastic manner and making snide insinuations about Paragons.

[Aedan_Cousland]

On a side not the OP assumes that Shepard destroyed the Collectors. That may not be the case. In fact I'd bet on Collectors being among the cannon fodder Shepard fights through in the next game as well. No doubt there were some that weren't on the Collector base when it was destroyed, and perhaps some that were on the Reaper fleet.