281 réponses à ce sujet

[Asheer_Khan]

Did another C-base thread was locked by Pacifen so there was necessity of launching this one?



And seriously... this kind of debate is really pointless because both sides are too strong fortifed on thier positions... and honestly i don't see any will on that one particular side to accept why paragons do what they fell is right to do.



Not even threat of such magnitude as reaper fleet will ever sanctioned death of colonist on Horizon, death of kids in Teltin facility, creating human made genophage (aka project trapdoor (we don't known if alongside with suppressing Asari biotic ability that thing won't destroy thier ability to mind meld wit other species... but i known that some people here would in matter of fact very gladly welcome such side effect))...



Sorry... but if humanity should march against reapers under "Humanity Uber Alles" ideology then apparently there is something wrong here....

[Ieldra]

Asheer_Khan wrote...
And seriously... this kind of debate is really pointless because both sides are too strong fortifed on thier positions... and honestly i don't see any will on that one particular side to accept why paragons do what they fell is right to do.

Not even threat of such magnitude as reaper fleet will ever sanctioned death of colonist on Horizon, death of kids in Teltin facility, creating human made genophage (aka project trapdoor (we don't known if alongside with suppressing Asari biotic ability that thing won't destroy thier ability to mind meld wit other species... but i known that some people here would in matter of fact very gladly welcome such side effect))...

Sorry... but if humanity should march against reapers under "Humanity Uber Alles" ideology then apparently there is something wrong here....

Something wrong it is when valid strategic concerns are put off by accusing their proponents of a racist ideology.

[Xilizhra]

Not necessarily; a known racist ideology can be a major factor in strategic concerns. But this should really be being discussed in that other thread.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Shandepared wrote...

The Rachni

Indeed, a screw up.

Husks

Nothing went wrong.

Thorian Creepers

Again, nothing went wrong.

Jack

A success.

Lazarus

A success.

EDI

A success.

Normandy

A success.

You forgot Ovelord: which was a success.

Any costs in lives are irrelevent if the project succeeds and in the case of Jack, Lazarus, and Overlord the projects accomplished their stated goals.

You claim to be taking the pragmatic approach but it doesn't look that way to me.

Why do you bring this crap into every thread that even insinuates the word "Cerberus"? We get it, you have a hard on for TIM, no need to bring your provocative arguments into every thread that has a mention of Cerberus in it.

[Dean_the_Young]

People this isn't a Cerberus debate thread (though I admit my error in responding to an off-topic point). This is about what rule, exactly, is going on.



If it's a logical rule, which one? Legal rule? What consistent ethical rule?

[Lumikki]

Why you think that choise has to be fit in some rule or different people would make choises based same rules?

Modifié par Lumikki, 21 octobre 2010 - 02:05 .

[Dean_the_Young]

People make choices on rules in general. This is a fact.



Shepar says he's throwing rules out the window, but I am completely perplexed what rules he's throwing out that he hadbeen abiding before.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Lumikki wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Shep: "I won't let fear compromise who I am!"

I did not have any problem with that line. Basicly it means that fear of our species to be killed, should not be excuse to do something, what can change hole species to something else. Like TIM is trying to geneticly improve humans so that they can survive better. It's about sacrificing moral consepts, because fear of dead.

The "soul" of our species isn't really the same as the "definition" of our species.  Everyone (just about) in the mass effect universe is walking around with some kind of amp or augmentation.  TIM is doing the exact opposite of trying to turn humans into something else... he tries turning other creatures into expendables so that human lives are spared.  He will push human powers but not what makes a human human.

Also, again it wouldn't be fear of dead, it would be the knowledge of knowing/understanding next to nothing regarding how to counter the Reapers.  Such things logically require study...

If you don't study for an exam and you know the exam is coming (but don't have the answers for the questions the exam will ask)...  you can't really expect to get a good grade, no matter how many may stand together in that ignorance.

The real fear is of TIM .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Shepar says he's throwing rules out the window, but I am completely perplexed what rules he's throwing out that he hadbeen abiding before.

The most logical answer I can think of is the rule about being done with Cerberus after the Collector Base Mission.  TIM keeping the base basically means you'd continue working with Cerberus against the Reapers... which is against the rules suggested by the Council.

[lovgreno]

A threat this big means you should be ready to consider if your rules help or harm in the long run. It also means you should not take unnecesary risks as one major misstake may cause everything to go fubar. It's not easy to make decisions from such a situation but then again we don't want easy challenges in a game right?

[Dean_the_Young]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Shepar says he's throwing rules out the window, but I am completely perplexed what rules he's throwing out that he hadbeen abiding before.

The most logical answer I can think of is the rule about being done with Cerberus after the Collector Base Mission.  TIM keeping the base basically means you'd continue working with Cerberus against the Reapers... which is against the rules suggested by the Council.

Well, Shepard's current mission since he/she walked away in ME1 has always been to find a way to beat the Reapers, so if the Council forgot that...

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Shepar says he's throwing rules out the window, but I am completely perplexed what rules he's throwing out that he hadbeen abiding before.

The most logical answer I can think of is the rule about being done with Cerberus after the Collector Base Mission.  TIM keeping the base basically means you'd continue working with Cerberus against the Reapers... which is against the rules suggested by the Council.

Well, Shepard's current mission since he/she walked away in ME1 has always been to find a way to beat the Reapers, so if the Council forgot that...

They've already dismissed that claim.

They want you to resolve the human abductions dispute, end your relationship with Cerberus once finished, and then return to hunting some Geth.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 21 octobre 2010 - 09:19 .

[Elite Midget]

Shandepared wrote...

Any costs in lives are irrelevent if the project succeeds and in the case of Jack, Lazarus, and Overlord the projects accomplished their stated goals.

You claim to be taking the pragmatic approach but it doesn't look that way to me.

You sound more like a Machine than an Organic. That's one of the reasons Paragons blow the base up. The Horrifical experimentations are too much to ignore. You can get results without resulting into sacrificing many lives to cut corners. My Shepard didn't choose to be ressurected but just because he was brought back from the dead doesn't mean that I approve of anything that Cerberus does.

Besides, Evil is much harder to forget than Good.

Cerberus is being remembered not by the rare successes they accomplish but by the inhumane deeds they performed to further their self desires. Their failures are far more well known than their accomplishments.

Look at the Reapers. Maybe they're wiping out organic life to self-preserve their race(Since they need Organics to create more Reapers) and maybe wiping out organic life results in saving the Universe.  Does it make right that the Reapers sacrifice so much life to self-preseve their race and maybe save the galaxy on their terms? By siding with TIM and giving him the okay to go crazy with the CB you're approving of the Reapers and their methods. Just they you believe that it's about time the Reapers are replaced with just as bad organics.

Remember, the Reapers didn't start out as souless machines. Something lead to that change and maybe that something is the very thing that is driving TIM and Cerberus. TIM is like an organic Reaper. Results are the only thing that matter and it doesn't matter how much life is lost if it means their race is preserved and dominant above all others. 

Modifié par Elite Midget, 21 octobre 2010 - 11:32 .

[Elite Midget]

That's what the Reapers have been doing though... They have no emotion and only care about self-preservation just like how TIM is acting. Once the Reapers are gone wouldn't it be logical to assume that TIM would want humanity to become just as god-like as the Reapers? After all, with all the 'upgrades' TIM has it seems like the next logical step to dominance would be something like a Reaper.



So the rule being broken here is what makes Shepard human.

[Elite Midget]

Again, that's the reasoning that Reapers have abided by for who knows how long. The Reapers see it as okay to destroy all means of organic life for insure they're dominant and can have a new Reaper created to preserve their race. TIM is following the same formula. Dominance and Self-Preservation of Humanity no matter the cost.



Breaking you moral code means that you're no better than the Reapers. So the logical path to that is either accepting the Reaper Path or to replace the Reapers as the dominant race all in the same of self-presevation.

[Zulu_DFA]

The "rules go out the window" line is bad.



Even the "I will let no fear" line would suit the "Keep Base decision a lot more (both than it suits the "Blow Base" decision and than the "rules go out the window" line suits its purpose).

[Lumikki]

Shandepared wrote...


We can't afford to be emotional when the survival of all galactic civilization is at stake.

If you deny that humans are emotional, then you are turning humans to machines. This path may keep humans alive, but it could also lead humans to become new reapers. Meaning you kill reapers by become reapers. That's the path what TIM has taken. Also who say the studying the base is even needed to defeat reapers and why people here thinks that without study the base, it will end of galactic civilization.

How ever, this is all just assumptions, meaning both choises are equal risky, just different ways.

Modifié par Lumikki, 22 octobre 2010 - 12:22 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Sorry... but if humanity should march against reapers under "Humanity Uber Alles" ideology then apparently there is something wrong here....

Something wrong it is when valid strategic concerns are put off by accusing their proponents of a racist ideology.

Actually, Asheer_Khan has a valid concern. The problem is, it's the Reapers, that are "wrong", and must be "corrected". So yes, when there is such thing as Reapers, ANY ideolgy is all right as long as it ups our chances against them.

That's BioWare's fault. Why did they need the Repears in the ME universe at all? As it is, they can as well pit a certain crazy moustache bearing guy with swastika against the Reapers, and he will still be better than the Reapers, and reason would still require keeping the Base.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 22 octobre 2010 - 12:44 .

[Arijharn]

I also have to wonder about the rules shephard's talking about, to me the only rule to follow is to ensure you cover as many bases (ha! I like that pun) as possible to align as many issues/assets as humanly possible to ensure (as much as you can 'ensure' realistically speaking) the desired outcome -- aka, survival.

To me at least, the way the Reapers were positioned the goal isn't some 'survival of the fittest' in the strictest sense, the vibe I get from those who know and are actively fighting against the Reapers smacks almost of desperation.

Therefore to me; there is no 'rule' other than the one that has to see the most people (human and aliens likewise) to survive, because in the end that's who I'm fighting for, them, not myself, not for my 'rules' or my ethics or morals. I'm a Spectre, I fight for galactic stability, and there isn't all that much stability as far as I can see it if everyone is dead.

[cachx]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
If it's a logical rule, which one? Legal rule? What consistent ethical rule?

It seems to me that they're trying to draw a paralell to something like, "Hey guys, you know what? let's try to keep Auschwitz open and see if the experiments yield cool results".
Or something like the atomic bomb, "You won the war, but at what prize?", not to mention the repercussions it can have for the whole galaxy after the Reaper threat is taken care of.

If you ask me, destroying the base is a case of Honor Before Reason, but at least I can see where they're coming from with this whole dilemma.

[Ryzaki]

I really wish people would stop slamming each other's justification for destroying/keeping the base though. From what I've seen everyone has valid viewpoints.

[Arijharn]

Ryzaki wrote...
From what I've seen everyone has valid viewpoints.

That's just the thing, I don't see the other side as being valid. I see it as being based on heaped assumptions that they believe might happen on top of the fact that both sides know that the Reapers are coming to be dealt and with a great deal more concern (this last bit is my own assumption however).

Consider:
- Cerberus is a pro-human [zulu]rogue[/zulu] organisation that's been around for what, 20-30 years aroundabouts?
- The Reapers wipe out all life every 50,000 years and have done it for at least 37 million years? That's ~740 incidents of mass extinctions that we can hazard a guess at providing that every 50,000 years has seen at least one civilisation rise up during the time period.
- Their detractors usually portray Cerberus as (criminally) inept, but the group is suddenly going to become incredibly adept when it suits their purposes of finally justifying why the group needs to be wiped out, over handing the base over to them which would benefit all parties, humans and aliens alike.