281 réponses à ce sujet

[Lumikki]

Arijharn wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
From what I've seen everyone has valid viewpoints.

That's just the thing, I don't see the other side as being valid.

That's why it's called other peoples viewpoint. You have yours and others have they. Just because you don't see others viewpoint as valid, others may not see you viewpoint as valid.

There is no right or wrong answer here, just assumptions made what can happen because the choise and choise made based everyone own viewpoint to look situation. Point here is that viewpoint is based everyones induvidual ways to look situations and that can't be changed. The viewpoint is affecting the way people see situations and if someone viewpoint is different than yours, they look situations different ways. Viewpoints are often based people real life values. Values are based environment people grew up, lession they have learn from life and they biological legacy what affects they behaviors. These base values change people viewpoint to look situations sertain ways and this affect they opinions.

Modifié par Lumikki, 22 octobre 2010 - 02:03 .

[Ryzaki]

Arijharn wrote...

Ex

Ryzaki wrote...
From what I've seen everyone has valid viewpoints.

That's just the thing, I don't see the other side as being valid. I see it as being based on heaped assumptions that they believe might happen on top of the fact that both sides know that the Reapers are coming to be dealt and with a great deal more concern (this last bit is my own assumption however).

Consider:
- Cerberus is a pro-human [zulu]rogue[/zulu] organisation that's been around for what, 20-30 years aroundabouts?
- The Reapers wipe out all life every 50,000 years and have done it for at least 37 million years? That's ~740 incidents of mass extinctions that we can hazard a guess at providing that every 50,000 years has seen at least one civilisation rise up during the time period.
- Their detractors usually portray Cerberus as (criminally) inept, but the group is suddenly going to become incredibly adept when it suits their purposes of finally justifying why the group needs to be wiped out, over handing the base over to them which would benefit all parties, humans and aliens alike. 

And my post wizzed right past your head. Right past.  

Like the poster right above me said there is no right or wrong just ideas and people offering supporting evidence. nothing more nothing less. This whole "I'm right and you're wrong!" is ridiculous. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 22 octobre 2010 - 01:47 .

[Arijharn]

No I understood, I just vehemently disagreed is all.

[Dean_the_Young]

Elite Midget wrote...

That's what the Reapers have been doing though... They have no emotion and only care about self-preservation just like how TIM is acting. Once the Reapers are gone wouldn't it be logical to assume that TIM would want humanity to become just as god-like as the Reapers? After all, with all the 'upgrades' TIM has it seems like the next logical step to dominance would be something like a Reaper.

So the rule being broken here is what makes Shepard human.

Why no. It is not logical to assume that TIM must buy into someone else's viewsof what's best for humanity.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Shandepared wrote...
The loss of Shepard's humanity is a small price to pay to save everyone else's.

There's no way you can lose your humanity by capturing a base... no matter how horrific that base is.


Also, as a reminder, TIM is supposed to represent BOTH... the best and worst of humanity.  Painting him in one color is probably too extreme...

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 22 octobre 2010 - 01:51 .

[Ryzaki]

Arijharn wrote...

No I understood, I just vehemently disagreed is all.

Oh? So there's absolutely no chance of indoctrination occuring from the Reaper tech? No chance at all the Cerberus will screw with it and end up with a bunch of husks and the like like the derelict reaper? No chance at all? There's absolutely no chance that this can blow up exponentially in Shepard's face? You're really arguing that? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 22 octobre 2010 - 01:51 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

It'd be fortunate if indoctrination was at that base... as it's something from my perspective that's extremely important in countering before facing the Reapers head-on. It's like Seeker Swarms 2.0.

[Dean_the_Young]

cachx wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
If it's a logical rule, which one? Legal rule? What consistent ethical rule?

It seems to me that they're trying to draw a paralell to something like, "Hey guys, you know what? let's try to keep Auschwitz open and see if the experiments yield cool results".

First, the analogy is invalid because we don't have to continue the act of feeding people into the smoothie machine to get benefits out of the base.

In fact, it's pretty stupid to, because it costs far too much for fewer gains that can be gotten much better in much less evil ways.

Second, the analogy is flawed because we did take and use Auschwitz and use it for our own ends. We did keep and use the ebil n-group inhumane experiemnts. And we did use Auschwitz for our advantage in other respects as well.

You yourself are usingAuschwitz at this very moment in this very argument.

Or something like the atomic bomb, "You won the war, but at what prize?", not to mention the repercussions it can have for the whole galaxy after the Reaper threat is taken care of.

The half-centruy after the atomic bombs has been one of the overall most peaceful, least costly centuries in termsof wars and war deaths in history. The atomic bomb veritably decimated the rate and scale of major wars.

[Arijharn]

Of course there's a chance, but I wouldn't say that you should be focussed on that to be your guiding principle compared to what you already know, and that is that the Reapers are out there, they need to be stopped right now (ASAP), and that everything after that fact is secondary.



I think people have their priorities swapped around is all. Cerberus could have bad designs on that base, but you know that any bad things they do would only occur after the Reapers arrive to do their own bad thing because the Reapers also threaten Cerberus' goals.

[Ryzaki]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

It'd be fortunate if indoctrination was at that base... as it's something from my perspective that's extremely important in countering before facing the Reapers head-on. It's like Seeker Swarms 2.0.

Why? It would just mean who ever ends up there turns into a bunch of Reaper servants. I just hope TIM has enough sense to regularly have messages sent back and- oh what am I talking about? This is Cerberus the let's ignore the potentially dangerous technology we're using as long as we get results. 

Not that the council would be much better. Sometimes I wonder if everyone is a imbecile in the ME universe. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 22 octobre 2010 - 01:58 .

[Ryzaki]

Arijharn wrote...

Of course there's a chance, but I wouldn't say that you should be focussed on that to be your guiding principle compared to what you already know, and that is that the Reapers are out there, they need to be stopped right now (ASAP), and that everything after that fact is secondary.

I think people have their priorities swapped around is all. Cerberus could have bad designs on that base, but you know that any bad things they do would only occur after the Reapers arrive to do their own bad thing because the Reapers also threaten Cerberus' goals.

Right. So acknowledging the chance that the people in the ship might end up indoctrinated and screwing us over more is having my priorities screwed up. 

Yeah. I'm going to blow the base up. You keep it. We'll see who was right come ME3. 

[Dean_the_Young]

How in the world are indoctrinated husks going to screw the galaxy over 'more'?

[Ryzaki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

How in the world are indoctrinated husks going to screw the galaxy over 'more'?

Not the husks itself but the fact that the reapers still have the damn base to use. I highly doubt Shep's going to stay around the base all the time he/she has more important things to do. 

And for some reason nothing can get done unless Shep's there to hold people's hands.  

And heck they might not even be changed into anything. They could just know too much information and the reapers will end up having access to information that might be vital to the war effort. 

Question: How long was the Cerberus team on the derelict reaper before indoctrination started settling in? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 22 octobre 2010 - 02:02 .

[Ryzaki]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

It'd be fortunate if indoctrination was at that base... as it's something from my perspective that's extremely important in countering before facing the Reapers head-on. It's like Seeker Swarms 2.0.

Mordin built the seeker swarm. He had to. You had no way of getting a live one at the point where he gave you the countermeasure. Proving that you don't need the technology itself (but rather blueprints) to effectively counter it. 

[Arijharn]

Frankly Ryzaki, you can indict me after I save your sorry ass

[Ryzaki]

Arijharn wrote...

Frankly Ryzaki, you can indict me after I save your sorry ass

Yeah. You just wait for that base to bite you in the ass and I have to save you. I'll indict you then. 

[Arijharn]

Ryzaki wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Of course there's a chance, but I wouldn't say that you should be focussed on that to be your guiding principle compared to what you already know, and that is that the Reapers are out there, they need to be stopped right now (ASAP), and that everything after that fact is secondary.

I think people have their priorities swapped around is all. Cerberus could have bad designs on that base, but you know that any bad things they do would only occur after the Reapers arrive to do their own bad thing because the Reapers also threaten Cerberus' goals.

Right. So acknowledging the chance that the people in the ship might end up indoctrinated and screwing us over more is having my priorities screwed up. 

Yeah. I'm going to blow the base up. You keep it. We'll see who was right come ME3. 

The opposite works as well though, what if you're wringing your hands when there could be nothing to fear from it at all? That you've basically squandered the chance for you and yours (aka; everyone else) jumps the technological curve and gives us a fighting chance against the Reapers.

Then you're left with nothing but rubble... both the CB to which you destroy largely out of fear (of the unknown, of Cerberus, of the Illusive Man), and when the Reapers arrive to liqueify everyone, because current weapons gen aren't enough to breach Reaper defenses. That is providing of course that we aren't all indoctrinated to be their slaves, turn on our brothers and sisters and shut down planetary defense systems for the Reapers to capture territory unimpeded.

[Ryzaki]

Arijharn wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Of course there's a chance, but I wouldn't say that you should be focussed on that to be your guiding principle compared to what you already know, and that is that the Reapers are out there, they need to be stopped right now (ASAP), and that everything after that fact is secondary.

I think people have their priorities swapped around is all. Cerberus could have bad designs on that base, but you know that any bad things they do would only occur after the Reapers arrive to do their own bad thing because the Reapers also threaten Cerberus' goals.

Right. So acknowledging the chance that the people in the ship might end up indoctrinated and screwing us over more is having my priorities screwed up. 

Yeah. I'm going to blow the base up. You keep it. We'll see who was right come ME3. 

The opposite works as well though, what if you're wringing your hands when there could be nothing to fear from it at all? That you've basically squandered the chance for you and yours (aka; everyone else) jumps the technological curve and gives us a fighting chance against the Reapers.

Then you're left with nothing but rubble... both the CB to which you destroy largely out of fear (of the unknown, of Cerberus, of the Illusive Man), and when the Reapers arrive to liqueify everyone, because current weapons gen aren't enough to breach Reaper defenses. That is providing of course that we aren't all indoctrinated to be their slaves, turn on our brothers and sisters and shut down planetary defense systems for the Reapers to capture territory unimpeded.

That's my whole point. 

Both of our views are valid from our perspective. 

You can be left with a giant gun aimed at the back of your head and I could end up with nothing. We could both be screwed. Or the base could be helpful and I could find something useful from the data I got before I blew it up. 

...Like totally dude. There's no such thing as uh...more than one way to do something...

Modifié par Ryzaki, 22 octobre 2010 - 02:14 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Ryzaki wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

How in the world are indoctrinated husks going to screw the galaxy over 'more'?

Not the husks itself but the fact that the reapers still have the damn base to use. I highly doubt Shep's going to stay around the base all the time he/she has more important things to do.

Without the Collectors, who are dead, how are they going to use the base? Indoctrinated persons can be wiped out by followup teams of Cerberus personel, and the proof of indoctrination device can lead to it being identified and destroyed.

Once they return, they can only use the base once they've effectively already won. But once they've won, they can also rebuild the base. Recapturing it is a moot point.

And for some reason nothing can get done unless Shep's there to hold people's hands. 

The galaxy didn't collapse in the two years Shepard was dead. When the story isn't focused on Shepard, other people become capable again.

And heck they might not even be changed into anything. They could just know too much information and the reapers will end up having access to information that might be vital to the war effort.

Like what?

The Collectors already had a Shadow Broker/Cerberus tier information network. They've been able to map out tech development a decade out for centuries, if not mellenia. They know our sciences hundreds of years out regardless.

Question: How long was the Cerberus team on the derelict reaper before indoctrination started settling in? 

The timeframe of indoctrination is days to weeks.

No one has to stay/live/work on the Collector base for longer than hours.

[Dean_the_Young]

Ryzaki wrote...

I really wish people would stop slamming each other's justification for destroying/keeping the base though. From what I've seen everyone has valid viewpoints.

Valid on what basis?

Everyone has a viewpoint. Does that make their logic sound? Is their reasoning balanced and consistent? Is it objective? Is it based on actual threats, as opposed to hyperboles?

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Ryzaki wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

It'd be fortunate if indoctrination was at that base... as it's something from my perspective that's extremely important in countering before facing the Reapers head-on. It's like Seeker Swarms 2.0.

Mordin built the seeker swarm. He had to. You had no way of getting a live one at the point where he gave you the countermeasure. Proving that you don't need the technology itself (but rather blueprints) to effectively counter it. 

No they picked one up while at Freedom's Progress.

I know, but I'm trying to speak to him in his own language in hopeless attempt to get him to think critically about his position.

ah okay.

Why? It would just mean who ever ends up there turns into a bunch of Reaper servants. I just hope TIM has enough sense to regularly have messages sent back and- oh what am I talking about? This is Cerberus the let's ignore the potentially dangerous technology we're using as long as we get results.
Not that the council would be much better. Sometimes I wonder if everyone is a imbecile in the ME universe.

 
Only if we don't manage to counter it... but if we don't... the Reapers will do a lot more damage with that when they arrive.  Plus I highly doubt Cerberus'll not learn from their mistakes... I give TIM more credit than that... he's supposed to be smart.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 22 octobre 2010 - 02:30 .

[Ryzaki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Without the Collectors, who are dead, how are they going to use the
base? Indoctrinated persons can be wiped out by followup teams of Cerberus
personel, and the proof of indoctrination device can lead to it being
identified and destroyed.

Once they return, they can only use the base once they've effectively already
won. But once they've won, they can also rebuild the base. Recapturing it is a
moot point.

And you know there’s no collector’s at all left how exactly?
Maybe not in the base but there’s nothing saying there weren’t some gathering
supplies on other planets while you were attacking.


And how exactly is Cerberus going to protect that place? The
place itself has no defenses, you need a reaper IFF to get there (which begs
the question how Cerberus representatives are going to move back and forth when
the only Reaper IFF you have is sort of on Shepard’s Ship). ...Unless Shep is
going to waste his time going through all the ships nearby looking for reaper
IFFs.

The galaxy didn't collapse in the two years Shepard was dead. When the
story isn't focused on Shepard, other people become capable again.

And did absolutely nothing other than argue about the Reapers
being non-existant (The Council), or bring him back to life (Cerberus), sure
people went about their lives but no one is any more prepared to fight the
reapers now than they were before. (which…is really depressing come to think of
it.)

Like what?

The Collectors already had a Shadow Broker/Cerberus tier information network.
They've been able to map out tech development a decade out for centuries, if
not mellenia. They know our sciences hundreds of years out regardless.

Oh I don’t know, like what weapons we’re developing? I’m
sure the Reapers know their own tech far better than humans can hope to learn
in a short time. By using their technology to such a large extent we’re
becoming reliant on it. Exactly what they wanted in the first place. Unless of
course you’re saying they’re going to see the weapons lying around their and
make them completely different. I’m pretty sure Reapers know the extent of what
their weapons can do and might even have countermeasures against it. Hell for
all we know another race managed to do the same thing, take over a base of
reaper servants just for it backfire. They’ve been doing this for millions of
years. 

No one has to stay/live/work on the Collector base for longer than hours.

 

Seriously? Then how pray tell do you suppose you’re going to
get any decent information with people working such short hours? And who often
are you going to completely rotate people? Last I checked Cerberus only had
about 150 members. And how do you know the indoctrination still won’t sit in
even with the few hours rotation? They’ll be constantly exposed to it unless you
plan on giving them month long vacations.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 22 octobre 2010 - 02:28 .

[Lumikki]

Arijharn wrote...

Of course there's a chance, but I wouldn't say that you should be focussed on that to be your guiding principle compared to what you already know, and that is that the Reapers are out there, they need to be stopped right now (ASAP), and that everything after that fact is secondary.

I think people have their priorities swapped around is all. Cerberus could have bad designs on that base, but you know that any bad things they do would only occur after the Reapers arrive to do their own bad thing because the Reapers also threaten Cerberus' goals.

Yeah, but does the choise what you make make situation better or worst?

Save base:

Some people may see situation like studing the base is priority number one because it offeres better way to understand reapers and higher technology. Assumption that without base all species die. Hope is that we can use technology save everyone. Reason is that new technolgy allways advance us and we are wiser enough to know to how use it. If TIM can save us all by using reaper technology, it's better option than false hope of other solutions becoming before reapers attacts. We should take all advance possibilities what we can get.

Destroy base:

Some people may see that understanding reapers technology and using it, is the way to destroy humanity, because then humans could come too much like reapers. You can't win situation when you become what you are fight agaist. Assumption is that studying and using reapers technology, we polution our own genetic pool, if we use reaper technology. Hope is that we find other solution to problem with help of other species (races). Reason is that TIM's way is too extreme and we don't trust TIM to do it right, because Cerberus wants advance only humans, not to share it with other species. What can cause that even if we win the reaper war, humans become new reapers, what could cause new war agaist other species (races), because humans would be too advance compared to others. Could mean that reaper technology is too dangerous and advance in anyones hand. Meaning by using reaper technology we may be choosing same future path what reapers did.

Modifié par Lumikki, 22 octobre 2010 - 02:46 .