281 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...


No they picked one up while at Freedom's Progress.

*stares* Did we play the same game? FP was DESERTED. With the exception of some quarians and the DATA Veetor had. That's all we had. DATA. No swarms no people, no zip. Just data and some quarians and mechs. 

[Ryzaki]

Shandepared wrote...

Maybe the seeker was picked up at Ferris Fields or New Canton.

When did anyone go there? You just heard about them going black. If any human had been there they would've been "collected" with everyone else. The only reason you stop the collector's is because of that weapon on Horizon and Mordin's countermeasure. Without that Shep's team would've been dead. 

[Arijharn]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I really wish people would stop slamming each other's justification for destroying/keeping the base though. From what I've seen everyone has valid viewpoints.

Valid on what basis?

Everyone has a viewpoint. Does that make their logic sound? Is their reasoning balanced and consistent? Is it objective? Is it based on actual threats, as opposed to hyperboles?

Dean once again said what I wanted to say better than I did. I'm really starting to hate Dean because of this.

Ryzaki, I can see where these people are coming from, I can see their views and why they got to their decisions, but that doesn't mean I think they're valid (i.e., correct). 

My thing isn't that I don't think Cerberus could be up to no good (ipsofacto), it's just that I can't see Cerberus as being a greater threat than the Reapers in the scale of things (in fact, Cerberus doesn't really rate on that scale at all if I'm totally honest about my viewpoint.) Disregarding avenues because you don't like Cerberus just seems to me as being incredibly short-sighted. To me, it seems like an over reaction compared to what we know; that the Reapers are incredibly practiced when it comes to mass genocide (like I said ~740 completed cycles) compared to someone who is pro-humanist (and not at this moment of time a confirmed xenophobic as far as I can tell) and as far as I can see it, we actually do need a miracle to come out of this on the other side. I'm not adverse to manufacturing our own miracles though

[Ryzaki]

I'm not saying Cerberus is the greater threats but the technology itself is. in all real world examples of people using each other's technology you didn't have to worry about it mind raping you. Nor did you have to worry about a ancient powerful species of machines "reaping" you. 

Trying to compare this to normal wars is like trying to compare magic to normal weapons. You can...but it just doesn't work out correctly. 

That said. you know what. Fine think my view is invalid. I couldn't care less now. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 22 octobre 2010 - 02:37 .

[Arijharn]

Lumikki wrote...
Yeah, but does the choise what you make make situation better or worst?

Save base:

Some people may see situation like studing the base is priority number one because it offeres better way to understand reapers and higher technology. Assumption that without base all species die. Hope is that we can use technology save everyone. Reason is that new technolgy allways advance us and we are wiser enough to know to how use it. If TIM can save us all by using reaper technology, it's better option than false hope of other solutions becoming before reapers attacts. We should take all advance possibilities what we can get.

Destroy base:

Some people may see that understanding reapers technology and using it, is the way to destroy humanity, because then humans could come too much like reapers. You can't win situation when you become what you are fight agaist. Assumption is that studying and using reapers technology, we polution our own genetic pool, if we use reaper technology. Hope is that we find other solution to problem with help of other species (races). Reason is that TIM's way is too extreme and we don't trust TIM to do it right, because Cerberus wants advance only humans, not to share it with other species. What can cause that even if we win the reaper war, humans become new reapers, what could cause new war agaist other species (races), because humans would be too advance compared to others.

Honestly, I view any result where we have survived is automatically better than the result in which we all perish. I can not in good conscience place my bets on the 'hope' that everything will turn out all right in the end because to me that's just the epitome of naivity. 

Look, if I was in that situation realistically then I would do things that may indeed make me morally bankrupt, but at the end of the day people would actually have the ability to declare me morally bankrupt. The point being is that even if I do 'become what I fight against' then that doesn't mean that other people have to make the same transformation into a demon as well, they will be free to make their lives as the see fit, and in the end that's what I'm fighting for.

I'm sure Moses couldn't save everyone/everything as well, and that he had to make sacrifices too... not least of which was himself. 

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I flip a coin to decide if I keep the base or not.

I mean we all know that Bioware will marginalize our decision to the point of absurdity so whats the point of agonizing over it?

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Ryzaki wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...


No they picked one up while at Freedom's Progress.

*stares* Did we play the same game? FP was DESERTED. With the exception of some quarians and the DATA Veetor had. That's all we had. DATA. No swarms no people, no zip. Just data and some quarians and mechs. 

"You don't have to sit there and guess.  We collected samples from one of the colonies.  I'd like you to analyze them and figure out how the Collectors did this."  -Shepard

I was assuming this meant Freedom's Progress (since that's the only colony Shepard's been to where people were taken) but it could also mean he's speaking on behalf of Cerberus and as a member of Cerberus.

[Ryzaki]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...


No they picked one up while at Freedom's Progress.

*stares* Did we play the same game? FP was DESERTED. With the exception of some quarians and the DATA Veetor had. That's all we had. DATA. No swarms no people, no zip. Just data and some quarians and mechs. 

"You don't have to sit there and guess.  We collected samples from one of the colonies.  I'd like you to analyze them and figure out how the Collectors did this."  -Shepard

I was assuming this meant Freedom's Progress (since that's the only colony Shepard's been to where people were taken) but it could also mean he's speaking on behalf of Cerberus and as a member of Cerberus.

The mind boggles. Where did he get it from? FP was deserted (we were just there) there was nothing there. All of the other colonies was said to be deserted. So either TIM's a machine...or he has a connection to the reapers...I doubt the seeker swarms would stay there afterwards. They were machines after all. ...maybe someone crushed one...? But no...more than one person would've done that and a bunch of strange bugs on the floor of a deserted colony would've raised eyebrows. 

...and now I'm more determined not to use the base. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 22 octobre 2010 - 02:43 .

[Arijharn]

Ryzaki wrote...

I'm not saying Cerberus is the greater threats but the technology itself is. in all real world examples of people using each other's technology you didn't have to worry about it mind raping you. Nor did you have to worry about a ancient powerful species of machines "reaping" you. 

Trying to compare this to normal wars is like trying to compare magic to normal weapons. You can...but it just doesn't work out correctly. 

That said. you know what. Fine think my view is invalid. I couldn't care less now. 

This is where I see your position as being non-valid, because we are already using their technology (The Mass Relay, mass effect fields, biotics, mass accelerator weaponry et al) . The Reaper in the basement of the CB might be able to indoctrinate you in the same way the derelict did to the science crew, but I don't see the CB itself doing that because the CB isn't actually a Reaper.
Failing that, why couldn't Cerberus teams extract as much tech from the base as possible and study it under safe, scientific protocols and regularly rotate crew through areas they may view as having the risk of indoctrination? What if the crew had required regular psychiatric testing, even if said psychiatric testing isn't under clinical settings (aka, whatever informal method Kelly Chambers uses).

Truth is that regardless, we need to study and understand indoctrination anyway, so even if it did occur on the CB, then it's better for it to be studied and understood before the Reapers show up as opposed to the alternative.

[Ryzaki]

Arijharn wrote...

And this

Ryzaki wrote...

I'm not saying Cerberus is the greater threats but the technology itself is. in all real world examples of people using each other's technology you didn't have to worry about it mind raping you. Nor did you have to worry about a ancient powerful species of machines "reaping" you. 

Trying to compare this to normal wars is like trying to compare magic to normal weapons. You can...but it just doesn't work out correctly. 

That said. you know what. Fine think my view is invalid. I couldn't care less now. 

This is where I see your position as being non-valid, because we are already using their technology (The Mass Relay, mass effect fields, biotics, mass accelerator weaponry et al) . The Reaper in the basement of the CB might be able to indoctrinate you in the same way the derelict did to the science crew, but I don't see the CB itself doing that because the CB isn't actually a Reaper.
Failing that, why couldn't Cerberus teams extract as much tech from the base as possible and study it under safe, scientific protocols and regularly rotate crew through areas they may view as having the risk of indoctrination? What if the crew had required regular psychiatric testing, even if said psychiatric testing isn't under clinical settings (aka, whatever informal method Kelly Chambers uses).

Truth is that regardless, we need to study and understand indoctrination anyway, so even if it did occur on the CB, then it's better for it to be studied and understood before the Reapers show up as opposed to the alternative.

Right because using bits and pieces is obviously the same thing as using the core of something.  

And this is where your position ceases to be about explaining your position rather than "winning" and proving someone else wrong. 

/me sighs. I just told you why the whole rotating the crew wouldn't work. The whole thing is in the middle of a mess of black holes so A. You need Reaper IFFs. (Which seem to have served as homing devices for some reapers...but I assume you no longer have to worry about that). B.Cerberus has a whopping 150 Crew members. Wow. That's sure a lot of people. 3. The rotation would need to be for long periods of time. 4. People don't realize when they're being indoctrinated. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 22 octobre 2010 - 02:47 .

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...


And you know there’s no collector’s at all left how exactly?
Maybe not in the base but there’s nothing saying there weren’t some gathering
supplies on other planets while you were attacking.
[/quote]The same basis for believing that not only are the Collectors are stupid enough to actually build a self-destructing reactor on their base, but that the reactor will wipethem out.

Pre-requisite suspension of disbelief of the premise in general, and the narrative.

There's nothing saying there are outside Collectors either, and EDI's been in the networks long enough to have a good basis to find if there was or not.

Regardless, they certainly don't have the Collector Cruiser, which I already blew up. That was their FTL trump card.


[quote]
And how exactly is Cerberus going to protect that place? The
place itself has no defenses, you need a reaper IFF to get there (which begs
the question how Cerberus representatives are going to move back and forth when
the only Reaper IFF you have is sort of on Shepard’s Ship). ...Unless Shep is
going to waste his time going through all the ships nearby looking for reaper
IFFs. [/quote]Cerberus has IFF's they copied from the Normandy. Not only is this implied in the choice (giving the base to Cerberus rather requires they be able to collect), it's outright shown in the Renegade everyone-dead ending.

Cerberus can defend it by the same sort of means the Collectors did: the Omega relay, bringing in Cerberus ships. They can also set uptheir Cerberus turrents.


[quote]
And did absolutely nothing other than argue about the Reapers
being non-existant (The Council), or bring him back to life (Cerberus), sure
people went about their lives but no one is any more prepared to fight the
reapers now than they were before. (which…is really depressing come to think of
it.) [/quote]Still didn't die, and Cerberus certainly didn't stop working in the past years.

Things get resolved. Not as nicely as when Shepard steps in,but they don't refuse to end.

[quote]

[quote]
Oh I don’t know, like what weapons we’re developing? I’m
sure the Reapers know their own tech far better than humans can hope to learn
in a short time. By using their technology to such a large extent we’re
becoming reliant on it. Exactly what they wanted in the first place. Unless of
course you’re saying they’re going to see the weapons lying around their and
make them completely different. I’m pretty sure Reapers know the extent of what
their weapons can do and might even have countermeasures against it. Hell for
all we know another race managed to do the same thing, take over a base of
reaper servants just for it backfire. They’ve been doing this for millions of
years. [/quote]Collectors already have a proven ability to map out our technology many years in advance of the galactic curve. That includes weapons tech: much of what we hear the Collectors trade is weapon systems that the rest of the galaxy is already developing.

Don't kid yourself. The Reapers are more advanced. They've been over this level of technology before, against species with far more varied tech than what we use.


[quote]

Seriously? Then how pray tell do you suppose you’re going to
get any decent information with people working such short hours? And who often
are you going to completely rotate people? Last I checked Cerberus only had
about 150 members. And how do you know the indoctrination still won’t sit in
even with the few hours rotation? They’ll be constantly exposed to it unless you
plan on giving them month long vacations.


[/quote]Robots carting up tech to study and carrying it out makes sense even without indoctrination fears. TIM didn't study Reaper indoctrination cybernetics in Ascension at the Base or behind the Omega 4 relay:  taking the technology out of the base to be studied where Cerberus already hasfacilities isn't just a safety measure, it's basic sense.

The experiences of Shepard and his crew, who have been under multiple known Indoctrination exposures, tells us that limited dosases do not simply store overtime.

[Ryzaki]

When was Shep under indoctrination?
And honestly Shep shouldn't be used as a benchmark for anything. He/She is supposed to be an exceptionally strong willed individual. (I.E. the beacons don't drive him/her insane). 

That said. I know we're not going to agree. I believe the risk of indoctrination is too high. The risk of using the base is in my Shep's view too high to justify keeping it. Sure he's making a leap of faith in that the data he got from the base is enough. But no more than a leap of faith that the Shep that keeps the base is that it'll be useful and not harmful. 

..And I love how everyone is assuming the people who blew up the base have nothing. Did you not see the schematics from EDI? Both paragons and renegades got that. For all we know that's more than enough information to design weapons and the like. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 22 octobre 2010 - 02:52 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Ryzaki wrote...

The mind boggles. Where did he get it from? FP was deserted (we were just there) there was nothing there. All of the other colonies was said to be deserted. So either TIM's a machine...or he has a connection to the reapers...I doubt the seeker swarms would stay there afterwards. They were machines after all. ...maybe someone crushed one...? But no...more than one person would've done that and a bunch of strange bugs on the floor of a deserted colony would've raised eyebrows. 

...and now I'm more determined not to use the base. 

 Go to around 8:40

As to how Cerberus got them, they've been following and studying the disappearances of the Collonies for a while before Shepard was brought back to life.

Also Vitor could've taken samples when the seekers hit...  But outside of that, Seekers don't seem to have a sort of role call.  They just fly around, sting, and probably die.  The Collectors were bound to leave a few behind.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 22 octobre 2010 - 02:55 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Shepard has been exposed to Sovereign no fewer than two times (Eden Prime, the Citadel), fought through multiple indoctrination/Dragon Teeth caverns in ME1 where various peoples were indoctrinated and huskified, was at the Virmire labs were Indoctrination experiments were done and opened the doors to known indoctrination cells, came face to face with a purpose-built indoctrination device in a ME2 N7 mission, boarded and fought across the Derilect Reaper, fought through the Collector Base (which people fear is an active indoctrination risk), and was exposed to the Human-Reaper (indoctrination potential unknown).



Shepard, and just as potentially members of his/her team, has been in many known indoctrination exposure situations, and several more potentials.

[Ryzaki]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

The mind boggles. Where did he get it from? FP was deserted (we were just there) there was nothing there. All of the other colonies was said to be deserted. So either TIM's a machine...or he has a connection to the reapers...I doubt the seeker swarms would stay there afterwards. They were machines after all. ...maybe someone crushed one...? But no...more than one person would've done that and a bunch of strange bugs on the floor of a deserted colony would've raised eyebrows. 

...and now I'm more determined not to use the base. 

 Go to around 8:40

As to how Cerberus got them, they've been following and studying the disappearances of the Collonies for a while before Shepard was brought back to life.

Also Vitor could've taken samples when the seekers hit...  But outside of that, Seekers don't seem to have a sort of role call.  They just fly around, sting, and probably die.  The Collectors were bound to leave a few behind.

Die? Aren't they machines? Why would they die? 

 
Edit: Also that "sample" could refer to Veetor's data. That's the only thing Shep would be aware about. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 22 octobre 2010 - 02:56 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Ryzaki wrote...

When was Shep under indoctrination?
And honestly Shep shouldn't be used as a benchmark for anything. He/She is supposed to be an exceptionally strong willed individual. (I.E. the beacons don't drive him/her insane). 

Shepard's crew, such as Tali and Garrus, are also unaffected.

That said. I know we're not going to agree. I believe the risk of indoctrination is too high. The risk of using the base is in my Shep's view too high to justify keeping it. Sure he's making a leap of faith in that the data he got from the base is enough. But no more than a leap of faith that the Shep that keeps the base is that it'll be useful and not harmful.

What is the risk of indoctrination? How is it not counterable or correctable?

We can not come to an agreement all day long, but I will certainly challenge you to give thought-out, supported grounds for your assertions... like how data on Collector particle technology, seeker swarm tech, and genetic tinkering skills are innately harmful.

..And I love how everyone is assuming the people who blew up the base have nothing. Did you not see the schematics from EDI? Both paragons and renegades got that. For all we know that's more than enough information to design weapons and the like. 

No, I didn't see schematics from EDI.

I saw a JPEG with a picture, not even a schematic, of a Reaper.

Where did you see or get sign of technical data, let alone suggestion of info fit to build weapons from?

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Ryzaki wrote...
Die? Aren't they machines? Why would they die? 

Run out of oil?  //shrugs

[Dean_the_Young]

Ryzaki wrote...
Right because using bits and pieces is obviously the same thing as using the core of something.  

We don't have to use the 'core' of their tech either. We can reproduce technological principals without reproducing systems and in-lays.

/me sighs. I just told you why the whole rotating the crew wouldn't work. The whole thing is in the middle of a mess of black holes so A. You need Reaper IFFs. (Which seem to have served as homing devices for some reapers...but I assume you no longer have to worry about that). B.Cerberus has a whopping 150 Crew members. Wow. That's sure a lot of people. 3. The rotation would need to be for long periods of time. 4. People don't realize when they're being indoctrinated. 

Cerberus has a 150 agents. It has more than 150 personel. 150 like Jacob and Miranda, not 150 people sum total.

And that's at the most literal. EDI's data claim is certainly counteracted on many points by the rest of the game.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 22 octobre 2010 - 02:59 .

[Lumikki]

Also remember what they told us in ME1 about the reaper technology. First the reaper technology had two purpose. One was allow reapers to come and do the cycle. Other was lead the other species to sertain technology path, depend on reaper technology. Remember what Sovereign and Admiral sayed about the technology impact to civilizations.

Modifié par Lumikki, 22 octobre 2010 - 03:00 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Lumikki wrote...

Also remember what they told us in ME1 about the reaper technology. First the reaper technology had two purpose. One was allow reapers to come and do the cycle. Other was lead the other species to sertain technology path. Remember what Sovereign and Admiral sayed about the technology impact to civilizations.

The Reaper path ends with our intended destruction. An end point. Not a indefinite process.

[Ryzaki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Shepard's crew, such as Tali and Garrus, are also unaffected.

Right. Because a quarian genius engineer and a vigilante are obviously traits of the average soldier. 

Also: Plot shield. Similar to the fact that despite being covered in Darkspawn blood your compainons in DA will never develop darkspawn corruption. 

What is the risk of indoctrination? How is it not counterable or correctable?

From what I've seen no? I haven't seen anything on it being counterable. I just seen people throw it off long enough to either off themselves (Saren) or die (Benezia). ...Maybe Shiala but I kill her most of the time. 

We can not come to an agreement all day long, but I will certainly challenge you to give thought-out, supported grounds for your assertions... like how data on Collector particle technology, seeker swarm tech, and genetic tinkering skills are innately harmful.

I have to say the same...well for different reasons of course but your thoughts are well supported. 

 No, I didn't see schematics from EDI.

I saw a JPEG with a picture, not even a schematic, of a Reaper.

Where did you see or get sign of technical data, let alone suggestion of info fit to build weapons from?

Right because those data pads always were just pictures.  No way that is valuable information. Nope. It just happens to look exactly like a reaper for no reason other than decoration. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 22 octobre 2010 - 03:05 .

[cachx]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
First, the analogy is invalid because we don't have to continue...

Operating under the assumption that the base can do something else besides turn living creatures into mechanical Chtulus. Even if it gets you something useful but harmless like, I dunno, "the reapers have a weak point in the right nut", the base still has the inherent capacity to do "bad stuff" and you can bet all possible baddies will try to exploit that. Oh, and I forgot how much has been established that reaper tech tend to backfire a lot due to indoctrination.

I really don't want to argue on the details of the analogies as german Concentration Camps, dropping goddam atomic bombs on populated cities, and the intrincacies of a Cold War may get the thread derailed, just a bit. I just hope you understood the point I was trying to get across.

"The end does not justify the means", "Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it.", "Hell isn't merely paved with good intentions; it's walled and roofed with them. Yes, and furnished too.
", and all that. As I said in my previous post, I'm on to the use the base side, but I can totally see how there are people that find that decision morally questionable, extremely dangerous, or even harmful in the long run (you're pretty much handing the ultimate power of the galaxy to TIM, of all people).

Is keeping the base a case of "but I must", like the antagonist of "Serenity" ?

The Operative: I'm sorry. If your quarry goes to ground, leave no ground to go to. You should have taken my offer. Or did you think none of this was your fault?
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: I don't murder children.
The Operative: I do. If I have to.
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: Why? Do you even know why they sent you?
The Operative: It's not my place to ask. I believe in something greater than myself. A better world. A world without sin.
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: So me and mine gotta lay down and die... so you can live in your better world?
The Operative: I'm not going to live there. There's no place for me there... any more than there is for you. Malcolm... I'm a monster.What I do is evil. I have no illusions about it, but it must be done.

Modifié par cachx, 22 octobre 2010 - 03:04 .

[Lumikki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Also remember what they told us in ME1 about the reaper technology. First the reaper technology had two purpose. One was allow reapers to come and do the cycle. Other was lead the other species to sertain technology path. Remember what Sovereign and Admiral sayed about the technology impact to civilizations.

The Reaper path ends with our intended destruction. An end point. Not a indefinite process.

Yes, but it ends there because all species are using reaper technology. Reapers leaded us to depend on they technology, not to allow us to create our own technology. Meaning when you use others techology without fully understand it, you are mercy of those who's controlling the technology. It's technology trap what allows enemy to control you. If you technology would be totally different than enemies, they could not be able use your own technology on they advance.

Modifié par Lumikki, 22 octobre 2010 - 03:07 .

[Ryzaki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Right because using bits and pieces is obviously the same thing as using the core of something.  

We don't have to use the 'core' of their tech either. We can reproduce technological principals without reproducing systems and in-lays.

/me sighs. I just told you why the whole rotating the crew wouldn't work. The whole thing is in the middle of a mess of black holes so A. You need Reaper IFFs. (Which seem to have served as homing devices for some reapers...but I assume you no longer have to worry about that). B.Cerberus has a whopping 150 Crew members. Wow. That's sure a lot of people. 3. The rotation would need to be for long periods of time. 4. People don't realize when they're being indoctrinated. 

Cerberus has a 150 agents. It has more than 150 personel. 150 like Jacob and Miranda, not 150 people sum total.

And that's at the most literal. EDI's data claim is certainly counteracted on many points by the rest of the game.

...Like Jacob? So what we have 150 people talking about "the priiize?"   

Sorry. Couldn't resist. 

Great so we have a bunch of average joes dealing with reaper tech. I guess you might want to boost that rotation rate. 

So while you have those people studying the thing that makes mecha-chutulu I'm going to have my people working with other races to make more weapons like the Thainax cannon. 

And dealing with "Ah yes 'Reapers'." apparently. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 22 octobre 2010 - 03:07 .