281 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Also we didn't need the base to kick their asses with their own weapons. So my Paragon while a bit uncertain of the path ahead. Is optimistic that together they'll create weapons that the Reapers will have never seen.

Plus: The Geth are willing to make their own technology. With their help hopefully even more advanced weapons and shields can be created. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 22 octobre 2010 - 03:15 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Lumikki wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Also remember what they told us in ME1 about the reaper technology. First the reaper technology had two purpose. One was allow reapers to come and do the cycle. Other was lead the other species to sertain technology path. Remember what Sovereign and Admiral sayed about the technology impact to civilizations.

The Reaper path ends with our intended destruction. An end point. Not a indefinite process.

Yes, but it ends there because all species are using reaper technology. Reapers leaded us to depend on they technology, not to allow us to create our own technology. Meaning when you use others techology without fully understand it, you are mercy of those who's controlling the technology. It's technology trap what allows enemy to control you. If you technology would be totally different than enemies, they could not be able use your own technology on they advance.

It ends because the Reapers activate the Mass Relays, cut off the heads of galactic governance, shut down the mass relays, and then mop up individual planets and systems at their leisure with hundreds of years of advanced tech.

Not because the galaxy uses e-zero tech. (Which it isn't going to do now anyway.)

Technology isn't magic. It's universally applied principals, not owned by anyone. Reapers can't make the fundamentals of technology stop working than Newton could stop gravity from working.

If you want to get away from Reaper tech, everyone's going to have to go back before they found Prothean tech. For humans, that's two hundred years ago, before FTL travel, before e-zero, before they even got beyond Pluto. You are not going to beat the Reapers with inferior non-Reaper technology.

'Non-reaper' is the equivalent of 'all natural': it's a feel-good label that means nothing objective.

[Dean_the_Young]

Ryzaki wrote...

...Like Jacob? So what we have 150 people talking about "the priiize?"   

Sorry. Couldn't resist. 

Great so we have a bunch of average joes dealing with reaper tech. I guess you might want to boost that rotation rate. 

Why would they send common joes to deal with the Reaper tech?

Why not send scientists?

Cause that just seems pretty stupid to argue.

So while you have those people studying the thing that makes mecha-chutulu I'm going to have my people working with other races to make more weapons like the Thainax cannon. 

And dealing with "Ah yes 'Reapers'." apparently. 

So, in refusing to work with understanding Reaper technology... you're going to work with other races to mass produce Reaper technology.

And this is why some people find such arguments invalid.

[Lumikki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Also remember what they told us in ME1 about the reaper technology. First the reaper technology had two purpose. One was allow reapers to come and do the cycle. Other was lead the other species to sertain technology path. Remember what Sovereign and Admiral sayed about the technology impact to civilizations.

The Reaper path ends with our intended destruction. An end point. Not a indefinite process.

Yes, but it ends there because all species are using reaper technology. Reapers leaded us to depend on they technology, not to allow us to create our own technology. Meaning when you use others techology without fully understand it, you are mercy of those who's controlling the technology. It's technology trap what allows enemy to control you. If you technology would be totally different than enemies, they could not be able use your own technology on they advance.

It ends because the Reapers activate the Mass Relays, cut off the heads of galactic governance, shut down the mass relays, and then mop up individual planets and systems at their leisure with hundreds of years of advanced tech.

Not because the galaxy uses e-zero tech. (Which it isn't going to do now anyway.)

Technology isn't magic. It's universally applied principals, not owned by anyone. Reapers can't make the fundamentals of technology stop working than Newton could stop gravity from working.

If you want to get away from Reaper tech, everyone's going to have to go back before they found Prothean tech. For humans, that's two hundred years ago, before FTL travel, before e-zero, before they even got beyond Pluto. You are not going to beat the Reapers with inferior non-Reaper technology.

'Non-reaper' is the equivalent of 'all natural': it's a feel-good label that means nothing objective.

Yes, but what if we as multible races would have build our own way to travel like mass relayes, but not technology based on reaper mass relays. Then reaper could not cut us off, because it's not they technology to control. By using reapers technology we have become slaves for reapers, because it's they technology to control.

Modifié par Lumikki, 22 octobre 2010 - 03:17 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Ryzaki wrote...

Also we didn't need the base to kick their asses with their own weapons. So my Paragon while a bit uncertain of the path ahead. Is optimistic that together they'll create weapons that the Reapers will have never seen.

...you're using the Thannix. You've made a mark of pride on that.

Plus: The Geth are willing to make their own technology. With their help hopefully even more advanced weapons and shields can be created.

Their technology is based on the same e-zero, mass-effect, kinetic barrier technology that is the Reaper intended path.

They're just better at developing along the Reaper lines of technologies than you. They aren't on a fundamentally different path of technological principals.

[Ryzaki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Why would they send common joes to deal with the Reaper tech?

Why not send scientists?

Cause that just seems pretty stupid to argue.

...You're joking right? I'm talking about willpower. The thing you need to avoid indoctrination. Someone being smarter =/= having stronger will power. 

So, in refusing to work with understanding Reaper technology... you're going to work with other races to mass produce Reaper technology.

And this is why some people find such arguments invalid.

Yup. But I'm doing it on my terms. Besides what evidence do you have that base is used for anything other than creating Reapers? For all you know you just invaded a giant womb and that's the only purpose it's serves. So while you're studying how to make reaper babies I'm going to be reimagining their weapons. So yes. I see my way as being more effective and valid. :innocent: Me making more guns to blast holes in their ships is more effective than you learning how they're born. 

Also: Aren't you saying in a sense that any technology based off a certain technology is exactly the same? How is that true? I'm not being sarcastic just geniunely curious. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 22 octobre 2010 - 03:21 .

[Ryzaki]

Edit: I've actually changed my stance. Not to pro keeping base but rather to destroying it because they only thing I know it's useful for is breeding reapers. Which is exactly what I do not want. So yeah. I blow it to hell.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 22 octobre 2010 - 03:28 .

[Lumikki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Their technology is based on the same e-zero, mass-effect, kinetic barrier technology that is the Reaper intended path.

They're just better at developing along the Reaper lines of technologies than you. They aren't on a fundamentally different path of technological principals.

What makes you assume that there isn't other technology paths?

[Dean_the_Young]

Lumikki wrote...
Yes, but what if we as multible races would have build our own way to travel like mass relayes, but not technology based on reaper mass relays. Then reaper could not cut us off, because it's not they technology to control.

No. We were not cut-off. We saw something that worked better, and took it, because what we had was inferior.

Inferior. Bad. Worse. Not as good. We did not lose capability when we went with e-zero tech, nor did they control our adaptation of the technology.

By using reapers technology we have become slaves for reapers, because it's they technology to control.

If we were slaves to the Reapers, we wouldn't have fought and killed Sovereign.

With tech from the Reaper desired lines of technology, no less.

[Dean_the_Young]

Lumikki wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Their technology is based on the same e-zero, mass-effect, kinetic barrier technology that is the Reaper intended path.

They're just better at developing along the Reaper lines of technologies than you. They aren't on a fundamentally different path of technological principals.

What makes you assume that there isn't other technology paths?

In general, or with the geth specifically?

The geth specifically because they've been conventional galactic technology. Better shields, better weapons, but principally the same technology that you have taken a position against.

In general, the Reaper paths are so broad it's meaningless to try and avoid it. Prothean psychic-technology was still on it. Leviathan of Dis genetic living starships was still on it. Moving from where it is, the galaxy is not going to get outside of Reaper technology paths.

Nor should it want to, since the only non-Reaper tech paths are the ones that avoid e-zero, the basis of all modern weapons and capabilities. All the major races would have to revert hundreds, thousands of years technology to get 'off' the path of Reaper tech.

Politically impossible, economically disastrous, militarily suicidal.

[Arijharn]

Ryzaki wrote...
Right because using bits and pieces is obviously the same thing as using the core of something. 

Not everything could be studied of course, someone would have to make those 'hard' decisions.

Ryzaki wrote...
/me sighs. I just told you why the whole rotating the crew wouldn't work.

Not to me you didn't, where is it? I wouldn't want you to explain things you've already hashed out because that's just tedious.

Ryzaki wrote...
The whole thing is in the middle of a mess of black holes so A. You need Reaper IFFs. (Which seem to have served as homing devices for some reapers...but I assume you no longer have to worry about that).

1) If Shephard dies while saving the base it's proved that Cerberus has already cloned and produced in some quantites.
2) Please don't confuse Reapers with Collector's, they are patently not the same thing.
3) EDI and Joker both state that they had 'flushed' the data afterwards (whatever that means) so that there is no chance of them appearing again.

Ryzaki wrote...
B.Cerberus has a whopping 150 Crew members. Wow. That's sure a lot of people.

Presumably they can get more. If you cbf trying to discuss things from now on can you just not bother posting? I honestly wont think any worse of you. How many people are on the normandy, how many people were on Lazarus station, how many people are on the Minuteman station, how many people where part of Overlord, how many people were on the Derelict Reaper? I'm going to guess that combined that total would have to exceed 150 members in all honesty. However, it would still be a 'small' size, although I think it's being overly difficult to say that they'd be only ever 'too small' to do detailed scientific study.

3. The rotation would need to be for long periods of time.

Probably, but provided they have 'enough' people then it wouldn't be insurmountable. It would be difficult, but we don't know precisely how long 'long periods of time' would mean.

4. People don't realize when they're being indoctrinated.

If the Derelict Reaper is any judge then while it's true that people themselves don't realize when they're getting indoctrinated, other people do. Also, it's apparently impossible to fool CCTV, so if it's been remotely monitored (hell, they're a secret organisation, surely they'd be used to big brother?) then they'll be able to act accordingly. Also, if it's only a few people directly studying the Reaper left overs, then you minimize interferences with people outside the scientific staff, making everyone... safer.

Obviously it's a gamble, but with my thoughts above, then it would be on the side of caution to do all this now as opposed to when things are heating up. We can't afford to stuff this up, so it seems to me that people TIM would really trust (Miranda?) would be the one tasked to lead the CB study and TIM would probably micro-manage it like he did Lazarus.

[Lumikki]

Yeah, that was my point, you don't try to choose you own path. You are following reapers path, what is exactly what reapers wants. Because it doens't matter if you kill all reapers, because you will become reaper, by folloing they path. That is end result of they technology.

Modifié par Lumikki, 22 octobre 2010 - 03:32 .

[Ryzaki]

The thing is that's a giant gamble on what might only be a giant Reaper breeding machine.



So yeah. I'm going to err on the side of caution and keep making nice guns to blowup said reapers.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

So, in refusing to work with understanding Reaper technology... you're going to work with other races to mass produce Reaper technology.

And this is why some people find such arguments invalid.

[/quote]

Yup. But I'm doing it on my terms. Besides what evidence do you have that base is used for anything other than creating Reapers? For all you know you just invaded a giant womb and that's the only purpose it's serves. So while you're studying how to make reaper babies I'm going to be reimagining their weapons. So yes. I see my way as being more effective and valid. :innocent: Me making more guns to blast holes in their ships is more effective than you learning how they're born. [/quote]What, and Collector Base technology isn't on 'your terms?'

Technology doesn't care about 'your terms'. It doesn't even know what your terms are. Technology doesn't care who uses it or why: it works the same for everyone. If the Reapers can block their technology, they can block their technology. That includes the Thannix.

Of course, the Reapers didn't block their technology, including EDI and theThannix and all the Collector technology, so the basis that they can do this has so far been...

We know that creating a Reaper isn't the only purpose the Collector Base serves, or the only aspect we can learn from it. The single best place and means to re-create their weapons and tech is the Base. Particle beans, sheilding, AI warfare, genetics, seeker swarms, husk technology: it's there.
[quote]
Also: Aren't you saying in a sense that any technology based off a certain technology is exactly the same? How is that true? I'm not being sarcastic just geniunely curious. 
[/quote]'Exactly the same'? Nonsense. Categorically inclusive? Yes.

Car technology is car technology. If you go from Ford to a Honda, it's still car technology.

Reaper tech is car technology, and this is a trip in which we're already in cars. People are currently crying bloody murder against the hybrid vehicle technology, staking a principal that we must go to the horse and buggy to avoid car technology, and then insisting that if we all switch from Fords to Hondas we'redoing the same thing.

[Ryzaki]

Lumikki wrote...

Yeah, that was my point, you don't try to choose you own path. You are following reapers path, what is exactly what reapers wants. Because it doens't matter if you kill all reapers, because you will become reaper, by folloing they path. That is they path and end result.

You know...this would be interesting for the next series of games. You play X who sees that everyone is developing into more and more "perfection" and obsessed with immortality. Then you realize about the old Reaper war where the last Reapers simply laughed before being destroyed saying "We are your destiny!" And you try to stop people from using the technology to no avail and watch them make themselves more and more reaper like. They use the base to find out how to turn certian species into reapers and in the hopes for such weapons turn enemy races into reapers, there's a giant war in which everyone is wiped out and...

Oh wait...I'm thinking about Fallout. :/ 

[Dean_the_Young]

Lumikki wrote...

Yeah, that was my point, you don't try to choose you own path. You are following reapers path, what is exactly what reapers wants.

We did choose our own path. The Reapers path was we get killed, they win.

This is not happening.

Because we are using reaper technology

Because it doens't matter if you kill all reapers, because you will become reaper, by folloing they path.

No, becoming a genocidal giant space robot is not inherent with using their technology.

On what planet did you grow up that the technology created for one purpose could only be used for that purpose forever more?

That is end result of they technology.

Technology is not deterministic.

[Ryzaki]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

So, in refusing to work with understanding Reaper technology... you're going to work with other races to mass produce Reaper technology.

And this is why some people find such arguments invalid.

[/quote]

Yup. But I'm doing it on my terms. Besides what evidence do you have that base is used for anything other than creating Reapers? For all you know you just invaded a giant womb and that's the only purpose it's serves. So while you're studying how to make reaper babies I'm going to be reimagining their weapons. So yes. I see my way as being more effective and valid. :innocent: Me making more guns to blast holes in their ships is more effective than you learning how they're born. [/quote]What, and Collector Base technology isn't on 'your terms?'

Technology doesn't care about 'your terms'. It doesn't even know what your terms are. Technology doesn't care who uses it or why: it works the same for everyone. If the Reapers can block their technology, they can block their technology. That includes the Thannix.

Of course, the Reapers didn't block their technology, including EDI and theThannix and all the Collector technology, so the basis that they can do this has so far been...

We know that creating a Reaper isn't the only purpose the Collector Base serves, or the only aspect we can learn from it. The single best place and means to re-create their weapons and tech is the Base. Particle beans, sheilding, AI warfare, genetics, seeker swarms, husk technology: it's there.
[quote]
Also: Aren't you saying in a sense that any technology based off a certain technology is exactly the same? How is that true? I'm not being sarcastic just geniunely curious. 
[/quote]'Exactly the same'? Nonsense. Categorically inclusive? Yes.

Car technology is car technology. If you go from Ford to a Honda, it's still car technology.

Reaper tech is car technology, and this is a trip in which we're already in cars. People are currently crying bloody murder against the hybrid vehicle technology, staking a principal that we must go to the horse and buggy to avoid car technology, and then insisting that if we all switch from Fords to Hondas we'redoing the same thing.

[/quote]

Oh okay. The fact reamins though. You have no idea what that base is used for. And even if there is no indoctrination the only thing you might end up left with is a giant breeding tank. What good is being able to make reapers? 

At least if I keep making guns (and yes I'll use their technology, that said the technology I'm using has already been tested out by other people so I'm not in much if any danger). Where's that base is A. Not going to be used by Shep and B. Unknown. So yes. I'll stick to making weapons, armor and things we'll actually need against the reapers. 

Sure knowing their weaknesses might be nice but that's something that could be discovered (maybe at a higher cost) on the field of battle. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 22 octobre 2010 - 03:40 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Ryzaki wrote...
Oh okay. The fact reamins though. You have no idea what that base is used for.

Genetic analysis, bio warfare, targetting software development, cyberwarfare algorithms,  organic non-lethal weapon systems, husk creation/upgrades, husk-combination technology, particle weapons, organic weapon systems development, fast-regen armor development, cybernetic development/creation, cloning facilities and technologies, indoctrination, stealth-detection systems, galactic espionage, FTL communication, Mass Relay hidden functionality knowledge and utillity, organic-to-metallic conversion material sciences, building reapers.

And even if there is no indoctrination the only thing you might end up left with is a giant breeding tank. What good is being able to make reapers?

Understanding what Reapers are made of, and understanding those systems.

Which include the useful things like weapons, shielding, movement, structure design, e-zero core configurations, AI construction and development, materials technology.

At least if I keep making guns (and yes I'll use their technology, that said the technology I'm using has already been tested out by other people so I'm not in much if any danger). Where's that base is A. Not going to be used by Shep and B. Unknown. So yes. I'll stick to making weapons, armor and things we'll actually need against the reapers. 

Nothing prevents you from testing Collector Base-derived systems.

Some of the benefits would almost certainly be used by Shepard and humanity: the benefits that will be used against the Reapers.

Plenty of known benefits already exist to be analyzed and learned. Including weapons and armor.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 22 octobre 2010 - 03:51 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Lumikki wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Also remember what they told us in ME1 about the reaper technology. First the reaper technology had two purpose. One was allow reapers to come and do the cycle. Other was lead the other species to sertain technology path. Remember what Sovereign and Admiral sayed about the technology impact to civilizations.

The Reaper path ends with our intended destruction. An end point. Not a indefinite process.

Yes, but it ends there because all species are using reaper technology. Reapers leaded us to depend on they technology, not to allow us to create our own technology. Meaning when you use others techology without fully understand it, you are mercy of those who's controlling the technology. It's technology trap what allows enemy to control you. If you technology would be totally different than enemies, they could not be able use your own technology on they advance.

Every race in Citadel space is already trapped at the level of technology the Reapers wanted them to have.  That's why they stood no chance against Sovereign.

[Elite Midget]

Actually... If it wasen't for the Protheans and making new technology and adapting non-intact Reaper Tech we would have continued on the path that the Reapers desired and would have been harvested already. The Proteans left a legacy that showed that Organic life can succeed without the Reapers defining their existence by modifcation, infiltration, and generally not messing with Dead Reapers or Reaper Bases.

Keeping the base is like spitting on all of the sacrifices the Protheans gave so that we would have a chance.

[Ryzaki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Also
But this also proves my 
Genetic analysis, bio warfare, targetting software development, cyberwarfare algorithms,  organic non-lethal weapon systems, husk creation/upgrades, husk-combination technology, particle weapons, organic weapon systems development, fast-regen armor development, cybernetic development/creation, cloning facilities and technologies, indoctrination, stealth-detection systems, galactic espionage, FTL communication, Mass Relay hidden functionality knowledge and utillity, organic-to-metallic conversion material sciences, building reapers.

Where are you getting all of that? For all you know that stuff came from elsewhere and was brought to the base. You have no evidence it was created there. Also you acknowledge it might be able to indoctrinate people yet still want people using it? 

Wait a second...the collector ship following you around and the collector base aren't the same thing are they? I could've sworn they weren't. 

And if that's the case WTF do they only have one ship? Bloody stalkers. 

 Understanding what Reapers are made of, and understanding those systems.

Which include the useful things like weapons, shielding, movement, structure design, e-zero core configurations, AI construction and development, materials technology.

Which is nice for being able to kill them but not completely necessary as Shepard and Co have proven. 

Nothing prevents you from testing Collector Base-derived systems.

Some of the benefits would almost certainly be used by Shepard and humanity: the benefits that will be used against the Reapers.

Plenty of known benefits already exist to be analyzed and learned. Including weapons and armor.

Yeah. Well I'm going to stick to what I know works. Blowing the things up. It has yet to fail me. Where's fooling around inside them has already lead to one incidident.  

But if its the same ship both Paragons and Renegades have great deals of information already. Remeber EDI's uploads? That explains the datapad. So the whole "Paragons know nothing" is nonsense.  A majority of that information is already know by both Paras and Renes with the exception of building reapers. 

Also I'm willing to bet there's an ancient race of something hidden away in some corner of the galaxy that'll give Shep a BFG to deal with the reapers. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 22 octobre 2010 - 04:34 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Hell no, I just finished a 40-hour game: I want my giant space explosion to finish with and I want it now!.
As if I'd want to break that rule.

[Ryzaki]

So basically it'll boil down to Renegades getting more information but not something that'll drastically change the tide of the war.



Especially not if its the same ship.

[Elite Midget]

Paragon are liberals now?



Please leave politics out of this before things get out of hand.