281 réponses à ce sujet

[Lumikki]

I think it's more like what paragon and renegade are. Renegade does what ever it takes to make sure they win, they don't really consider so much consequences of they actions. Paragon is more like if we just all work togather to accomplish something, we can maybe find good solution for everyone.

It's choise, nothing more. People often thinks that they way is the right way, when it's not about that. So, the argument here is more like, I can't be wrong with my choise, my choise has to be right one because something. So people defend they choises. What of course is total BS, because it was never about been right or wrong. Just taking different path.

Modifié par Lumikki, 22 octobre 2010 - 05:37 .

[Ryzaki]

Truth even more so because if my intuitions right alot of that so called "data" was already on the CS trap. Which means we got mostly everything with the exception of the reaper baby.

[Gibb_Shepard]

ITT "Collector Base Argument Thread 4.0"



Leave it to the renegades to morph a seemingly innocent thread into a CB argument

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Elite Midget wrote...

Actually... If it wasen't for the Protheans and making new technology and adapting non-intact Reaper Tech we would have continued on the path that the Reapers desired and would have been harvested already. The Proteans left a legacy that showed that Organic life can succeed without the Reapers defining their existence by modifcation, infiltration, and generally not messing with Dead Reapers or Reaper Bases.

Keeping the base is like spitting on all of the sacrifices the Protheans gave so that we would have a chance.

Actually the Protheans showed that (assuming what you're saying is correct) not using the fruits of studying Reaper tech early ends in them hiding from the Reapers in utter and humiliating defeat.  Sure they figured some things out but it was waaay too late to save anybody or do anything... In the end, even the "survivors" died from not being let out of their stasis pods.

May not be the best example to use... 

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 22 octobre 2010 - 06:30 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

ITT "Collector Base Argument Thread 4.0"

Leave it to the renegades to morph a seemingly innocent thread into a CB argument

Yeah what's up with them

But seriously (AND BACK ON TOPIC), the rule that went out the window was burning the bridge with Cerberus... that's what I think.  Your intention to continue working with Cerberus goes hand in hand with keeping the base.

[tallinn]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

ITT "Collector Base Argument Thread 4.0"

Leave it to the renegades to morph a seemingly innocent thread into a CB argument

Dean seems to be on a mission. He seems to be not comfortable with the Renegade way of doing things without reassurance by the community. Until he gets it, he will start any thread needed.

I am currently playing ME again with a renegade "it's the mission, stupid"-style of Shephard. It is ridiciolus. Rushing in to Noveria, shooting your way through any obstacle, may it be friend or foe, no motivation whatsoever to do any side quest, insulting people whenever there is time to talk - life is really hard for poor Jane. However, with the dialogues given to a renegade Shephard it is clear that she will not stick to the Alliance or the Council, not in the end of ME, not during ME2. She feels humanity is opressed by alien races and wants to change that. Poor Rachni queen is going to die for sure. Wether it makes sense or not the Renegade style simply does not feel right but rude. To add to the hard life experience I raised the difficulty level to hardcore and choosed infiltrator as class. As Jane does stick to human squad mates, took the opportunity to leave Wrex at the Citadel, did almost the same with Garrus and Tali, she feels very, very weak, and if she does not die in combat, her squad mates surely will at least once during a fight. But don't they deserve when if not taking cover when being shooted? More time for Jane to snipe out what is shooting.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Renegades: Socially Outragious (fun/mean), Merciless to villains, Pragmatic on major choices



Paragons: Socially Magnetic (nice/compassionate), Merciful to villains, Idealistic on major choices

[Dean_the_Young]

Ryzaki wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Also
But this also proves my 
Genetic analysis, bio warfare, targetting software development, cyberwarfare algorithms,  organic non-lethal weapon systems, husk creation/upgrades, husk-combination technology, particle weapons, organic weapon systems development, fast-regen armor development, cybernetic development/creation, cloning facilities and technologies, indoctrination, stealth-detection systems, galactic espionage, FTL communication, Mass Relay hidden functionality knowledge and utillity, organic-to-metallic conversion material sciences, building reapers.

Where are you getting all of that? For all you know that stuff came from elsewhere and was brought to the base. You have no evidence it was created there.

If it's at the base, it can be studied. Where it comes from is irrelevant to the fact that the technology exists there, and so can be studied there. This is an intrensic aspect of valuable items: its possession of the
items, not their original source, that matters in being able to study
them.

Now, that said... of course it's from the base. Where do you think the Collectors develop, manufacture, and maintain their technology? Does Harbinger wave his hand and produce items ex nilho? Are you going to argue that they went out and bought the technology from another unknown species that has withheld its technology from the rest of the galaxy? Contrary to all the narrative and choice indications?

Also you acknowledge it might be able to indoctrinate people yet still want people using it?

No, I didn't. I said it would have the technology... and it would, as part of the Reaper creation process. Having the technology does not mean that the technology is in a active state: an armory has guns, but that does not mean an armor has the guns rigged to fire if you walk through the door.

Even so, yes, I would, because indoctrination isn't uncircumventable or catastrophic.

Wait a second...the collector ship following you around and the collector base aren't the same thing are they? I could've sworn they weren't. 

And if that's the case WTF do they only have one ship? Bloody stalkers.

I never said they were the same thing. But they would share the same technology, in order to maintain, repair, and gradually upgrade the Collector Cruiser in order to maintain 'near' term technology.

The most likely reason for one ship is that that's all they needed before the Cycle was broken, they didn't need or want to use the Collectors until after Sovereign failed, and after a point one ship was all they had to work with.

Which is nice for being able to kill them but not completely necessary as Shepard and Co have proven.

So you're giving up your Thannix, then, because it's not completely necessary?

Yeah. Well I'm going to stick to what I know works. Blowing the things up. It has yet to fail me. Where's fooling around inside them has already lead to one incidident. 

Where has it worked against a Reaper? You didn't overcome Sovereign with fire or technology. You haven't boarded a live Reaper with active deterrants. Sovereign was killed by the fleet only after it took a chance with a personal Avatar, an opportunity which can not be expected to happen for the Reaper fleet. The Derilect Reaper was already mostly dead and comatose, and the Normandy still couldn't get you out.

And yet, the Reaper IFF was still necessary. How were you going to cross Omega 4 without it?

But if its the same ship both Paragons and Renegades have great deals of information already. Remeber EDI's uploads? That explains the datapad. So the whole "Paragons know nothing" is nonsense.  A majority of that information is already know by both Paras and Renes with the exception of building reapers.

And you missed how after both missions in which you mine collector computers either Shepard or TIM will be annoyed at what they couldn't get?

And, your basis that the information that EDI got was a majority of possible data, was good enough for weapons/tech reproduction is...? When the narrative of the game tells you otherwise, especially after setting up an end-game decision.

Also I'm willing to bet there's an ancient race of something hidden away in some corner of the galaxy that'll give Shep a BFG to deal with the reapers.

Congratulations. You've proven yourself willing to let more people die than every human tyrant, villain, and monster to date has managed to kill.

Combined.

There's nothing moral or ethical behind such a stand, and you gave up pragmatic long ago.

[Dean_the_Young]

Lumikki wrote...

I think it's more like what paragon and renegade are. Renegade does what ever it takes to make sure they win, they don't really consider so much consequences of they actions. Paragon is more like if we just all work togather to accomplish something, we can maybe find good solution for everyone.

On what grounds do you claim that Paragons have foresight and that Renegades lack it?

Consequences? How about the Rachni choice, freeing a known belligerent species you have no guarantees isn't still a threat? Sending your fleet to save the Council when the entire galaxy will die if it gets too hurt in doing so? Curing the genophage despite uniform Krogan population history? 

Don't talk to me about how Paragons consider the consequences while Renegades don't.

[Dean_the_Young]

tallinn wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

ITT "Collector Base Argument Thread 4.0"

Leave it to the renegades to morph a seemingly innocent thread into a CB argument

Dean seems to be on a mission. He seems to be not comfortable with the Renegade way of doing things without reassurance by the community. Until he gets it, he will start any thread needed.

Why am I blamed for this, when I didn't start the derailment to the choice itself?

The topic flowed into familiar paths, but that's not what the original post was about. It was about one line.


Oh, and Tallinn? Grow the spine to address me directly if you want to address me. Indirect passive-aggressive fools no one.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 22 octobre 2010 - 12:01 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

How does worry about indoctrination and TIM abusing reaper tech = fear? 

In that case the Renegade path is based off fear that you can't defeat the reapers without said tech. 

If indoctrination is the worry, the Reapers will be bringing it... If you choose not to study it, you will be an ignorant victim of it.  Destroying the base and missing an opportunity to study and counteract it goes hand in hand .  Because it should be remembered that there's really nothing about the Reapers currently available for study that hasn't already been sucked dry.

The thought of TIM doing something abusive with the tech compromised the fact that there is ABSOLUTELY NO ANSWER currently for stopping the Reapers and their primary weapon of Indoctrination.   Realizing this is not fear, just common knowledge.

The fear is not trusting TIM.  It's a fact that we're not ready yet to face the Reapers... and a galaxy united won't hold in the face of massive Indoctrination.

Have we seen any evidence of indoctrination being used as a weapon of battle, a fast and decisive method of attack that immediately turns the tide of battle?  No, not at all. It's not a magic worship field that instantly turns people into drooling, obedient slaves, or makes them think whatever the Reaper wants them to think the moment it's turned on.

And notice that Shephard and the squadies never hear or feel the things that others say they experience when around a Reaper.  It's almost as if some people are far less affected than others, and/or as if it takes some time for even the smallest of effects to start... 

Indoctrination is a tool of espionage, not a weapon of battle.  It works very slowly, and on a very local scale.  The Reapers aren't going to show up and mass-indoctrinate whole planets as soon as they enter orbit.   If they could, the marines on Eden Prime wouldn't have fought back, for starters. 

[Ryzaki]

And do you not realize most of that stuff is fond on the Collector Ship you escaped from? With the exception of RB. So saying Paragons don't have access to that information is point blank a lie.
Also: When did TIM say the information was worthless? 
I remember EDI uploading info and then going: "Oh. While I was doing that I saw that this was a trap." 

And that whole fight isn't that EDI uploading information, blocking the Collector's hacking attempts, and 
attempting to override the collector's base defenses so you can get the hell out of dodge. 

EDI: herself tell you about the genetic diversity which I assume was her scanning the information. 

And there's also that datapad at the end. I can understand your reasoning for keeping the base but saying the Paragons know nothing really is just a lie. 

Edit: How does Thannix = CB? It's reaper technology to be sure but it certainly isn't the same as the CB. 

You see the husks, the testing all of that is in the ship EDI hacked, indoctrination, more husks, and more information was in the derelict reaper. 

I must've missed the point where we got absolutely no information from both those places and the collector base if we blew it up. I guess that datapad had pretty ponies in it. 

Also: You already HAD information for the CB at the moment of your decision (You remember TIM telling him about the scans EDI sent him?) so yeah...no information is a lie. How do you know there's more information to be had then what EDI downloaded? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 22 octobre 2010 - 04:53 .

[Ryzaki]

Shandepared wrote...

If there is no point to keeping the base then why did TIM get so mad when you blew it up?

Because I have no doubt he wanted to know how reapers were made. Which I think is the only information that you might not have recieved in its entirety as a Paragon. 

Everything else was found on other CS/Reapers except RB. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 22 octobre 2010 - 04:52 .

[Ryzaki]

Shandepared wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Because I have no doubt he wanted to know how reapers were made. Which I think is the only information that you might not have recieved in its entirety as a Paragon. 

Everything else was found on other CS/Reapers except RB. 

Well don't you think that kind of information would be important?

No. I'm sure there weaknesses are a hell of a lot more important than their origins. 

While you might learn that information for BR you probably learn it without it. 

Plus: I really don't like taking risks. Of either indoctrination, someone decideding to make Reapers and start the cycle all over again, and what not. 

Safer just to kill the damn things and let no one know how they were made. (Which is why I hope there's a way to kill them in deep space before they reach the Citadel. T

[Ryzaki]

Shandepared wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

No. I'm sure there weaknesses are a hell of a lot more important than their origins.

Indeed. The best way to understand their weaknesses is to understand how they're built. Do you agree?

True. But the risk of learning that in my mind is too great. People are going to want to use that information and I don't foresee it going well. It might not be what you might do but it's my decision and that's the one I made. 

Then why blow up the base? Surely the risks of going to war with the Reapers without knowing everything we can about them is far greater than the risk of studying their technology. We've already seen from EDI and the thanix canon how valuable studying Reaper technology can be.

I agree with you that risks should always be mitigated, but I think that by blowing up the base you are actually increasing the risk of ultimate defeat.

Not necessarily. Both Soverign and the CB prove that you can hurt them with the technology you have now. It all depends on the information you got from the CB when you made your decision. For all we know that datapad information included weaknesses. 

[Ryzaki]

Edit: Though at least we know why Harbinger wants Shep so bad. He wants to have Sheps babies <3

Modifié par Ryzaki, 22 octobre 2010 - 05:30 .

[Ryzaki]

I'm not being rational?



Forget it I'm not even going to bother.

[TuringPoint]

 I still hold to my reasoning which has nothing to do with the data being tainted by the death of humans.  Data is data is data.  For me the choice also has nothing to do with Cerberus deciding to make a Reaper, so much as how they would use the technology.  You don't think there's anything sinister about giving it to them, and only them?

They would be the only ones with access to the technology.  If it were so bloody important to use the information to save humanity, so important that rules go out the window for the greater good, why can't the information be a joint project with other species?  Cerberus has infiltrated enough places to be able to put out the word fairly effectively.  Cerberus' goal, and TIM says this, isn't to make sure that humanity survives - their primary agenda is to put humanity on top.

Also, my final reasoning is - what technology will we actually get from the base that will help in defeating a Reaper?

Modifié par Alocormin, 22 octobre 2010 - 07:00 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Have we seen any evidence of indoctrination being used as a weapon of battle, a fast and decisive method of attack that immediately turns the tide of battle?  No, not at all. It's not a magic worship field that instantly turns people into drooling, obedient slaves, or makes them think whatever the Reaper wants them to think the moment it's turned on.

And notice that Shephard and the squadies never hear or feel the things that others say they experience when around a Reaper.  It's almost as if some people are far less affected than others, and/or as if it takes some time for even the smallest of effects to start... 

Indoctrination is a tool of espionage, not a weapon of battle.  It works very slowly, and on a very local scale.  The Reapers aren't going to show up and mass-indoctrinate whole planets as soon as they enter orbit.   If they could, the marines on Eden Prime wouldn't have fought back, for starters. 

Have we seen indoctrination used as a weapon of battle?  Yes, check the codex entry about it ("Rapid Indoctrination is possible").  Also, with Grayson it wasn't brainwashing or a super convincing mechanism... it was a total takeover and empowerment weapon.  The Reapers controlled every action he did and word he said and had access to every memory he possessed.

And they don't have to indoctinate whole planets in one go (the objective is to reap.. not to control), it can easily be like a virus, starting with one ship or one crew.

Sovereign already had Saren and the Geth under his control.  He didn't need anyone else.  Also, just because Sovereign didn't take over Saren at the beginning doesn't mean he couldn't have... as evidenced by the end of the game... in which he finally does.

Quote from Mass Effect Wiki:

"Indoctrination is one of the key weapons of the Reapers; the salarian lieutenant Ganto Imness describes it as a greater threat than a krogan army. As Vigil explains, indoctrinated slaves from conquered planets were used during the last Reaper incursion as sleeper agents. They were taken in by other Protheans as refugees, then betrayed their own people to the machines. But the Reapers viewed them as disposable. When they disappeared back through the Citadel relay, the Reapers abandoned their indoctrinated slaves, leaving them to starve or die of exposure. "

I'm sure you can imagine what would happen if an allied ship that comes in contact with a Reaper that survives and falls back or regroups with command or other tactically important people...

[Elite Midget]

Actyally, the Collectors being Protheans... I think Bioware retconned out the part where the slaves died of starvation when that isn't really the case. If it was than the Collectors and Keepers wouldn't have existed.