281 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Alocormin wrote...
Also, my final reasoning is - what technology will we actually get from the base that will help in defeating a Reaper

This has been answered so many times that it really shouldn't need to be repeated:
(1) They were building a Reaper there, everything about a Reaper's  structure should be available for deciphering
(2) The Collectors themselves had advanced technology on their ship(s). They also *traded* in advanced technology.
(3) In the end, we don't know, but we cannot afford to assume we will not need what's in there.

This should really go into the Collector base thread.

[mosor]

Ryzaki wrote...

Not necessarily. Both Soverign and the CB prove that you can hurt them with the technology you have now. It all depends on the information you got from the CB when you made your decision. For all we know that datapad information included weaknesses. 

Not really. Sovereign was vulrable because Shepard fougt and beat his avatar, You can't expect that to happen on a consistant basis. Besides, during the derelict reaper mission, EDI tells you reapers are impervious to dreadnaught fire.

[Ryzaki]

mosor wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Not necessarily. Both Soverign and the CB prove that you can hurt them with the technology you have now. It all depends on the information you got from the CB when you made your decision. For all we know that datapad information included weaknesses. 

Not really. Sovereign was vulrable because Shepard fougt and beat his avatar, You can't expect that to happen on a consistant basis. Besides, during the derelict reaper mission, EDI tells you reapers are impervious to dreadnaught fire.

Which proves that you're getting information about their weakness from the data you have now! 

[RiouHotaru]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
The main thing that confused me with the Paragon answer is "I won't let fear compromise who I am"... which is exactly what he ended up doing... fear of TIM compromised who he usually was (which was using every tech and teaming up with the most dangerous, (oft-times unstable-but-skilled) group he could find to stop the Reaper threat...with the Collector Mission being a counter-offensive).

Man...when are people going to stop taking this out of context?  Half the time I think you're doing it on purpose!  Seriously, that line has nothing to do with TIM.  It has to do with fear of the Reapers.  Shepard is referring to an old adage about "don't stoop to their level."  He/She is saying that they won't let fear of the Reapers make him/her stoop to the level of using their horrific technology which turned countless humans into goop to use as a part of an Eldritch Abomination robot.

[Arijharn]

Ryzaki wrote...

mosor wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Not necessarily. Both Soverign and the CB prove that you can hurt them with the technology you have now. It all depends on the information you got from the CB when you made your decision. For all we know that datapad information included weaknesses. 

Not really. Sovereign was vulrable because Shepard fougt and beat his avatar, You can't expect that to happen on a consistant basis. Besides, during the derelict reaper mission, EDI tells you reapers are impervious to dreadnaught fire.

Which proves that you're getting information about their weakness from the data you have now! 

What are you going to do about it now though?
You don't have the CB
You have a mass of Dreadnoughts
You are still on the same technological parity as before
You know that Reapers are coming.

Now do you understand why I say that the other thought pattern is invalid? Realistically speaking (heh, I know, funny really) you are totally up the creek without a paddle because you know you are facing a wall, you know there was a ladder propped up against it, but the only thing you aren't sure of is if the ladder is high enough to allow you to climb over the wall (you suspect although where unable to verify if the ladder was rickety). However, you know that any steps you take on that ladder means that you have a larger chance to climb over that wall than when you were on ground level just a moment ago.

I have to say though that I believe that a paragon who saves the base (aka, me) would have the ability to filter out weapons designs to other species anyway if for no other reason that if I'm going to have allies at my side, then I'd want them to be effective because otherwise what's the bloody point of even having allies?

For example; lets say a combined fleet of Salarian's, Humanity, Turian's and Asari meet a Reaper fleet on the outskirts of the Citadel's immediate space, and lets say Humanity is the only species with enough fire power to actually beat a Reaper's shields and destroy it, how long do you think it'd take before the Reapers just clue up on the fact that the fight is essentially just between the Reapers and Humanity? If I was a Reaper, I'd actually just ignore the other species and co-ordinate actions against those upstart humans, because they're the only threat. I might destroy other species vessels if they effectively are merely shield vessels, but I'd wager that chances are good that my Reaper brothers and I would combine out weigh the Systems Alliance. I'd be like a Krogan and say that the other species are just not worth the effort of fighting essentially.

[Dave of Canada]

Alocormin wrote...

Also, my final reasoning is - what technology will we actually get from the base that will help in defeating a Reaper?

Off the top of my head...

Seeker Swarms.
Mastery of Particle Weaponry.
The weird buggish hull thing.
Ability to shut down entire colonies and track down individual groups.
The ability to create that plague thing from Omega.
Collector Stasis Pods (debatable, we don't know how they compare with our current ones)

... and probably a lot more since the Collector technology is considered a treasure trove to many people.

This isn't including any data that will help fight indoctrination, prevention or cure / Reaper weaponry and defense system flaws / ect.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 23 octobre 2010 - 12:37 .

[Xilizhra]

I just thought of something... we're not going to get any ship-based weapons technology improvements. We're already installing Reaper guns on our own ships.

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

I just thought of something... we're not going to get any ship-based weapons technology improvements. We're already installing Reaper guns on our own ships.

Based off the remnants of Sovereign and Turians reverse engineering it. A full blown plan on how to build it should probably yield Uber-Thannix guns.

[Dean_the_Young]

Elite Midget wrote...

Actyally, the Collectors being Protheans... I think Bioware retconned out the part where the slaves died of starvation when that isn't really the case. If it was than the Collectors and Keepers wouldn't have existed.

Nothing prevents both from being true.

The Reapers let their armies of slaves die off.

The Reapers kept a very small number of Protheans around to become the Collectors.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Alocormin wrote...

Also, my final reasoning is - what technology will we actually get from the base that will help in defeating a Reaper?

Off the top of my head...

Seeker Swarms.
Mastery of Particle Weaponry.
The weird buggish hull thing.
Ability to shut down entire colonies and track down individual groups.
The ability to create that plague thing from Omega.
Collector Stasis Pods (debatable, we don't know how they compare with our current ones)

... and probably a lot more since the Collector technology is considered a treasure trove to many people.

This isn't including any data that will help fight indoctrination, prevention or cure / Reaper weaponry and defense system flaws / ect.

Some much valuable technology... If only we weren't forced to give it to the devil himself.

[Inquisitor Recon]

The Illusive Man isn't even that bad of a guy.

[Dean_the_Young]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
Some much valuable technology... If only we weren't forced to give it to the devil himself.

You have a really, really petty version of Hell.

I wish  to subscribe to your religion.

[Arijharn]

Honestly, I would sell my soul to the devil to save everyone from the threat of utter extinction. To me, that's a stupidly cheap going price... I'd have to be stupid not to take it

[Kaiser Shepard]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
Some much valuable technology... If only we weren't forced to give it to the devil himself.

You have a really, really petty version of Hell.

I wish  to subscribe to your religion.

Sure, just PM me your soul and you're ready to get started.

But in all seriousness, how can one not recognise the Illusive Man as the closest you can get to the classic Faustian demon in the Mass Effect-setting?

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 23 octobre 2010 - 02:08 .

[Dean_the_Young]

A general lack of souls, the relative stakes, comparative evils, the ability to renege and retaliate.





The thing about deals with the devil is that (a) the Devil is a nigh-omnipotent figure who can't be beaten, ( the deal can never be countered, and © the Devil is pure, unmitigated evil.



Cerberus rather fails all three.

[TuringPoint]

Ieldra2 wrote...
This has been answered so many times that it really shouldn't need to be repeated:
(1) They were building a Reaper there, everything about a Reaper's  structure should be available for deciphering
(2) The Collectors themselves had advanced technology on their ship(s). They also *traded* in advanced technology.
(3) In the end, we don't know, but we cannot afford to assume we will not need what's in there.

This should really go into the Collector base thread.

I did not say there was no conceivable reason to keep the base.  I am well aware of the reasons people have in mind for keeping the base.  I was supplying the legitimate reasons I had for not keeping the base.  Which is still valid.  And I have repeated it many, many times.

Agreed that this should be in the main collector base argument thread.

As for the Illusive Man being a demon, I wouldn't call him that.  Not strictly speaking.  I am more inclined to go with Samara's view - the view of a hyper-intelligent,  centuries old being - that TIM thinks he has the wisdom to use the CB well, but he does not.  He serves his purpose well at times, but he is one man and he has flaws which are quite clear.  Even after understanding his reasons for doing what he does.

Modifié par Alocormin, 23 octobre 2010 - 02:34 .

[Ryzaki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

A general lack of souls, the relative stakes, comparative evils, the ability to renege and retaliate.


The thing about deals with the devil is that (a) the Devil is a nigh-omnipotent figure who can't be beaten, ( the deal can never be countered, and © the Devil is pure, unmitigated evil.

Cerberus rather fails all three.

...Huh. I guess my culture most be different. The whole deal with a devil thing sucks but usually there's a loophole. It just involves god, angels and forgiveness/repetance. 

[TuringPoint]

TIM serves his purpose, but he is not the one who should get the responsibility of dealing with whatever is in the Collector Base.  You can bet he did not plan on sharing anything he found out.  

He has a plan usually. But Cerberus plays with things that can't be controlled.  TIM puts the galaxy in jeopardy in order to examine indoctrination in more depth in Retribution. Sure, he takes precautions - and he does what he can to prevent catastrophe. That's fine if it were an isolated incident, but he's always pulling dangerous stunts.

Modifié par Alocormin, 23 octobre 2010 - 02:55 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

TIM isn't the devil. His goals aren't pure evil and he isn't trying to claim Shepard's soul or rule the galaxy with an iron fist. He simply has ambition and the means to advance his goal of a stronger humanity. You can question his methods, but I don't see anything to indicate he is some sort of evil individual, he simply believes the end justifies the means. As some Bioware person said, he represents the best and worst of humanity.

Plus read his dossier, he knows how to party!

[Ryzaki]

TIM is a human...a human with flaws and good points.



The fact is I wouldn't even trust my self with the base. So why would I trust someone else with it?

[Lumikki]

ReconTeam wrote...

The Illusive Man isn't even that bad of a guy.

He is leading terrorist organisation.

from wiki....

Cerberus is the codename for a black ops organization that was part of the Systems Alliance military before going rogue. Cerberus has since evolved into a human-survivalist paramilitary group led by the enigmatic Illusive Man. Cerberus' core belief is that humans deserve a greater role in the galactic community, and that the Alliance is too hamstrung by law and public opinion to stand up effectively to the Citadel races.

Any methods of advancing humanity's ascension are justified, including illegal or dangerous experimentation, terrorist activities, sabotage and assassination. Cerberus operatives accept that these methods are brutal, but believe history will vindicate them.

Modifié par Lumikki, 23 octobre 2010 - 03:20 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Alocormin wrote...

TIM serves his purpose, but he is not the one who should get the responsibility of dealing with whatever is in the Collector Base.  You can bet he did not plan on sharing anything he found out. 

Actually, that would be a loser's bet.

TIM certainly would keep the best, most potent bits for himself and Cerberus, but plenty of things would benefit humanity by being shared. The difference between Collector tech and Reaper tech is hundreds of years, but even Collector tech is still better than what most people have, and a better leg up towards fighting the Reaper.

Base dividends can be shared without ruining the competitive advantage of the base. In fact, not sharing the base tech makes it useless against the Reapers, which are the priority threat number one: Cerberus is too small to take advantage of the tech on its own.

He has a plan usually. But Cerberus plays with things that can't be controlled.  TIM puts the galaxy in jeopardy in order to examine indoctrination in more depth in Retribution. Sure, he takes precautions - and he does what he can to prevent catastrophe. That's fine if it were an isolated incident, but he's always pulling dangerous stunts.

By thenature of the Reapers, you best hope Reaper tech can be controlled: otherwise, it's a doomed fight.

How, pray tell, was the galaxy in jeopardy from reaper-Grayson? A threat that took an anti-personnel weapon to bring down?

[Dean_the_Young]

Lumikki wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

The Illusive Man isn't even that bad of a guy.

He is leading terrorist organisation.

from wiki....

Cerberus is the codename for a black ops organization that was part of the Systems Alliance military before going rogue. Cerberus has since evolved into a human-survivalist paramilitary group led by the enigmatic Illusive Man. Cerberus' core belief is that humans deserve a greater role in the galactic community, and that the Alliance is too hamstrung by law and public opinion to stand up effectively to the Citadel races.

Any methods of advancing humanity's ascension are justified, including illegal or dangerous experimentation, terrorist activities, sabotage and assassination. Cerberus operatives accept that these methods are brutal, but believe history will vindicate them.

Name three acts of terrorism Cerberus has done as a matter of policy.

[TuringPoint]

Dean_the_Young wrote...


How, pray tell, was the galaxy in jeopardy from reaper-Grayson? A threat that took an anti-personnel weapon to bring down?

Hmm... well, TIM took the threat pretty seriously.  As he should have.

You don't seem to.  Do you think he shouldn't have?  I'll dare you to "read TIM's mind" and come up with why he was concerned with taking Grayson into custody as soon as possible.  What you said indicates ignorance; I'm sure you're smarter than that and can figure out on your own what sort of threat a Reaper-grayson can have on the galaxy.

Once you've figured that out, maybe you can re-read my post with a clear enough mind to respond to the substance of it.  You don't have to even respond necessarily.

Thanks.  I'd appreciate it.

Modifié par Alocormin, 23 octobre 2010 - 03:32 .

[Lumikki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Name three acts of terrorism Cerberus has done as a matter of policy.

It's background what Bioware has created for Cerberus, you would have to ask from them what Cerberus has done in past, before games what we play. I can only name few stuff what they have done.

Cerberus has conducted horrific experiments intended to create super soldiers, including experiments on rachni
and Thorian Creepers.

They accidentally unleashed rachni on Listening Posts Alpha and Theta when their experimental subjects -- shipped from Noveria -- escaped from Depot Sigma-23.

Cerberus also deliberately destroyed a settlement on Chasca by turning the colonial pioneer team there into Husks

A traumatised marine named Corporal Toombs also claimed that in one of their most devastating experiments

Cerberus lured thresher maws to the colony on Akuze, resulting in the notorious massacre.

Commander Shepard, investigating the disappearance of a group of marines under Rear Admiral Kahoku,
found that Cerberus had lured them to a thresher maw nest using a distress beacon.

Shepard's team went to Binthu to take out Cerberus' research bases, but not before Cerberus had Kahoku killed.

Modifié par Lumikki, 23 octobre 2010 - 03:33 .