281 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Alocormin wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...


How, pray tell, was the galaxy in jeopardy from reaper-Grayson? A threat that took an anti-personnel weapon to bring down?

Hmm... well, TIM took the threat seriously.  

You don't seem to.  Do you think he shouldn't have?  I'll dare you to read TIM's mind and come up with why he was concerned with taking Grayson into custody as soon as possible.  What you said indicates ignorance; I'm sure you're smarter than that.  

Many things are threats that can be taken seriously without being actual threats to the galaxy. I would, say, take the threat of a Krogan cure to the genophage far more seriously, even though I have confidence that the Krogan could be put down (at cost).

Intended by the writers or not, I see the 'galactic threat of Grayson' as more hyperbole than anything. Much as, no matter how hard I stretch my imagination, I can really believe the Collectors were capable of succeding with an attack on Earth.

Mass Effect, like many stories, likes to make the stakes great and terrible... even though they really, really aren't. In the case of Grayson, there's little he could do that the Reapers couldn't already have set up while the Collectors were alive: set up a Reaper intel network, create independent organizations, whatever. The Collectors had the mean and the opportunity to do so already.

Grayson is a super-commando for evil... and yet what he does with it is steal some civilian biotic research data.

Once you've figured that out, maybe you can re-read my post with a clear enough mind to respond to the substance of it.  You don't have to even respond necessarily.

Thanks.  I'd appreciate it.

Bad day today, I take it?

[Ryzaki]

Edit: NVM

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 octobre 2010 - 03:53 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Lumikki wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Name three acts of terrorism Cerberus has done as a matter of policy.

It's background what Bioware has created for Cerberus, you would have to ask from them what Cerberus has done in past, before games what we play. I can only name few stuff what they have done.

Cerberus has conducted horrific experiments intended to create super soldiers, including experiments on rachni
and Thorian Creepers.

Not terrorism: terrorism is open acts to meet political objectives by public terror. The entire modus operandi of terrorism is to be big, flashly, publicly noticed, and to scare people into acting certain ways.


The Super Soldier experiments were never public. While the Rachni experiments were a crime (that was, it should noted, stopped once it was realized that the Rachni were actually intelligent), how is experimenting on Thorian creepers a crime at all?

They accidentally unleashed rachni on Listening Posts Alpha and Theta when their experimental subjects -- shipped from Noveria -- escaped from Depot Sigma-23.

Accidents certainly aren't terrorism.

Cerberus also deliberately destroyed a settlement on Chasca by turning the colonial pioneer team there into Husks

Our only knowledge of Cerberus involvement was that Cerberus got some husk samples. Not that they started it (and a number of small colonies have dug up dragon's teeth).

A traumatised marine named Corporal Toombs also claimed that in one of their most devastating experiments

Public and political intent... how?

The only reason Akuze gets any sort of public exposure is a failure on Cerberus part (to keep Toombs captive). Terrorism is fundamentally an open strategy.

Cerberus lured thresher maws to the colony on Akuze, resulting in the notorious massacre.

We are never told that Cerberus lured the thresher maws to the Akuze colony.

Our only knowledge is that the Sole Survivors unit was led into a thresher maw nest... not that the thresher maws were moved to them.

And, again, their involvement was never publicly terrorizing or with an open political intent.

Commander Shepard, investigating the disappearance of a group of marines under Rear Admiral Kahoku,
found that Cerberus had lured them to a thresher maw nest using a distress beacon.

Public and political... how?

Kahoku wasn't killed for political reasons. Kahoku was killed because he was a security threat to them. They even did their best to cover it up.



Lumikki, none of these are terrorism. Cerberus is criminal, certainly enough. But that isn't an end-all-be-all as to their nature.

[Lumikki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Name three acts of terrorism Cerberus has done as a matter of policy.

It's background what Bioware has created for Cerberus, you would have to ask from them what Cerberus has done in past, before games what we play. I can only name few stuff what they have done.

Lumikki, none of these are terrorism. Cerberus is criminal, certainly enough. But that isn't an end-all-be-all as to their nature.

Did you forgot my first sentense?  Like I sayed ASK from BIOWARE, it's they background for Cerberus. Are you saying that Bioware's lore is irrelevant?

Modifié par Lumikki, 23 octobre 2010 - 03:59 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Ryzaki wrote...

...Dude you don't think they can take out earth? Yet they're so threatening not using the base is practically suicidal Really?

The Collectors can't.

The Reapers can.

The Collectors do not utilize the Reaper technology they do have in the base. This is old, old news.

Also: The collector's have something that render every. single. human being useless. I doubt humans let aliens know their defense codes and the likes.

How are seeker swarms going to enter air-tight ships? Off planet?

Hell, how are they going to deploy enough seekers on planet, as opposed for the vicinity of large city?

Earth isn't some backward colony, the only life for light years, lacking even basic colony defenses. Earth is the home of one of the most powerful military powers of all. It's going to have defense turrents on every continent, if not every mega-city. It's going to have defense forces,sealed from collectors, across the planet. It's going to have ships in orbit. There will be ships across the solar system, who can not all be taken out. There's a mass relay right on the edge of the system, from whence out-of-system Alliance fleets (not ships, fleets) can flow once alarm is given (and Cerberus, at the very least, almost certainly has a quantum entanglement system on Earth to get the  word out, if nothing else).

And that's without any bare-minimum Seeker Swarm defenses (which we know can be made) protecting a core reaction force.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 23 octobre 2010 - 03:59 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Lumikki wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Name three acts of terrorism Cerberus has done as a matter of policy.

It's background what Bioware has created for Cerberus, you would have to ask from them what Cerberus has done in past, before games what we play. I can only name few stuff what they have done.

Lumikki, none of these are terrorism. Cerberus is criminal, certainly enough. But that isn't an end-all-be-all as to their nature.

Did you forgot my first sentense?  Like I sayed ASK from BIOWARE, it's they background for Cerberus. Are you saying that Bioware lore is irrelevant?

I will certainly say they are wrong if they are outright wrong. If bioware in game says red is blue, it's still red. The in-game label is reasonably enough passed off as Citadel/Alliance propaganda labeling.

It is not backed up with valid examples to be an objective description.

I didn't ask Bioware, though. I asked you to provide examples.

[Lumikki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I will certainly say they are wrong if they are outright wrong. If bioware in game says red is blue, it's still red. The in-game label is reasonably enough passed off as Citadel/Alliance propaganda labeling.

It is not backed up with valid examples to be an objective description.

I didn't ask Bioware, though. I asked you to provide examples.

I ques we are done then, if you dismiss Biowares lore for Mass Effect serie, because you self want something to be different than it is. There is no point of argue, because no-one can argue agaist self invented "lore" to support they own visions.


PS: Terrorism doens't have to allways be political, there are other act what fits the description too.

Modifié par Lumikki, 23 octobre 2010 - 04:18 .

[Ryzaki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Collectors can't.

The Reapers can.

The Collectors do not utilize the Reaper technology they do have in the base. This is old, old news.

...You can't be serious.   

The Collector's have uber weapons and tech on their base...but never use it? Really? Really? That's like saying the Citadel has a BFG that can destroy all the reapers in one go and the council is fully aware of it but no one ever uses it because...because...why exactly? 

...Or maybe those uber weapons are traps and backfire! That would be a good reason for not using them! 

Ha! Seems blowing up the base is the best thing to do.  

How are seeker swarms going to enter air-tight ships? Off planet?

How is earth an air-tight ship?  

Hell, how are they going to deploy enough seekers on planet, as opposed for the vicinity of large city?

...So the Collector's had a giant ship for a population size of earth but no way of disabling the whole planet. ...Despite the fact that they're using reaper technology that is far more advanced than the technology everyone else is using. So either the technology on that base sucks, or they can disable earth. You can't have it both ways. 

Earth isn't some backward colony, the only life for light years, lacking even basic colony defenses. Earth is the home of one of the most powerful military powers of all. It's going to have defense turrents on every continent, if not every mega-city. It's going to have defense forces,sealed from collectors, across the planet. It's going to have ships in orbit. There will be ships across the solar system, who can not all be taken out. There's a mass relay right on the edge of the system, from whence out-of-system Alliance fleets (not ships, fleets) can flow once alarm is given (and Cerberus, at the very least, almost certainly has a quantum entanglement system on Earth to get the  word out, if nothing else).

The reason the collector's left horizon was because the attack was unexpected. So they decided to cut their losses. If they were going to earth and hit it I'm pretty damn sure they'd be prepared. Harbinger is many things...an idiot isn't one of them.  Earth isn't all powerful. The human race isn't OMG special like most sci-fi tells you. If the CB wanted to hurt them, they'd have been hurt. 

The CB was probably amassing resources and just biding its time for when the strike to earth would've been most to it's advantage. Earth may have been able to damage it. But completely stop it? No. 

The only reason Shep stops it is A. Element of Surprise B. Shep's a God Mode Sue and C. He blew up the core (which begs the question why was there a core that could be blown up in the first place but gameplay story segregation and what not). 

And that's without any bare-minimum Seeker Swarm defenses (which we know can be made) protecting a core reaction force.

Right because the all human council clearly believes Shepard's warnings.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 octobre 2010 - 04:09 .

[TuringPoint]

Lumikki wrote...

It's background what Bioware has created for Cerberus, you would have to ask from them what Cerberus has done in past, before games what we play. I can only name few stuff what they have done.

^those weren't done as a matter of policy, and generally it seems like Cerberus' focus is not to be terrorists. However, the consequences of what they do are frequently quite dangerous, and require a commando or strike team to deal with. They do not abide the law or present their case reasonably, in any case - however much cause they have for not bothering with any of that, they hold the line of making life better for humanity and other races while constantly doing what they can to make it worse. They may have very little power, but they certainly commit crimes and atrocities on the off chance or risk that they may get something useful.

Also, Grayson had the ability to indoctrinate people.  If he had been ignored, he would've made serious problems for everyone - like the end of the human race and all other known space-faring races.  So I would never consider that, "not serious," no matter if he had been defeat-able by less than Aria's private army, and no less than two well-trained commandos, and a bit of luck.  In the bigger picture the threat got contained, I suppose.  They have that going for them. (?)

Modifié par Alocormin, 23 octobre 2010 - 04:35 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Lumikki wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I will certainly say they are wrong if they are outright wrong. If bioware in game says red is blue, it's still red. The in-game label is reasonably enough passed off as Citadel/Alliance propaganda labeling.

It is not backed up with valid examples to be an objective description.

I didn't ask Bioware, though. I asked you to provide examples.

I ques we are done then, if you dismiss Biowares lore for Mass Effect serie, because you self want something to be different than it is. There is no point of argue, because no-one can argue agaist self invented "lore" to support they own visions.

I don't dismiss Bioware's lore.

The lore says the the Alliance and Council label Cerberus as a terrorist organization.

The lore also says that the Alliance and Council dismiss the threat of the Reapers.

Why should I accept the Alliance and Council to be unfailingly accurate with such a loaded, often political label such as terrorism when they don't follow up on the far less unclear status of the Reapers?

PS: Terrorism doens't have to allways be political, there are other act what fits the description too.

Over half of the very first paragraph of the very wiki article you quote wouldn't apply to Cerberus. That's a rather strong indicator that it wouldn't fit most practical definitions of the label.


Pick your working definition, and we'll talk about how accurate it is.

[Lumikki]

Yes, but terrorism doesn't have to be done because policy.

Common definitions of terrorism refer only to those violent acts which are intended to create fear (terror), are perpetrated for a religious, political or ideological goal, deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants (civilians), and are committed by non-government agencies.

If two different size aren't at war, any major violent act agaist others what can cause fear (terror) is consider as terrorism. Example terrorism can be also ideological differences between System Alliance and Cerberus what cause violent acts.

Example how can anyone consider this anything else than terrorism. It's direct act agaist System Alliance people. Some workers are building settlements and Cerberus basicly kills them all. What the hell you call it?

Cerberus also deliberately destroyed a settlement on Chasca by turning the colonial pioneer team there
into Husks

Modifié par Lumikki, 23 octobre 2010 - 04:49 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Grayson and possibly others sabotaging spaceship to have them leak eezo over entire colonies, causing all kinds of birth defects in the process.



Does that fit your definition of terrorism?

[Dean_the_Young]

Ryzaki wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Collectors can't.

The Reapers can.

The Collectors do not utilize the Reaper technology they do have in the base. This is old, old news.

...You can't be serious.   

The Collector's have uber weapons and tech on their base...but never use it? Really? Really? That's like saying the Citadel has a BFG that can destroy all the reapers in one go and the council is fully aware of it but no one ever uses it because...because...why exactly? 

...Or maybe those uber weapons are traps and backfire! That would be a good reason for not using them! 

Ha! Seems blowing up the base is the best thing to do.  

The Collectors have always been kept close to the galactic tech curve: that's part of how they hide in the galaxy. Open usage of 'high' Reaper tech is another level: the difference between 'cutting edge' and 'several generations away'.

The Collectors were never intended to use the tech themselves. Nor did they ever need its advantage in their tasks: the Collector tech got by just fine. By the time Reaper tech actually would have helped, too late.

Or bad writing.

How is earth an air-tight ship? 

Air-tight ships on Earth.

Like the space craft constantly taking on and off.

...So the Collector's had a giant ship for a population size of earth but no way of disabling the whole planet.

In a normal cycle, the Reapers would have disabled the planet for the Collectors.

Reaper armada comes in, blows **** up, rounds up prisoners, Collectors arrive without resistance and cart them away.

...Despite the fact that they're using reaper technology that is far more advanced than the technology everyone else is using. So either the technology on that base sucks, or they can disable earth. You can't have it both ways.

False delimma: the Collectors were never created with the logistical capabilities necessary to invade, hold, and seize, and Reaper tech doesn't change that limitation.

The reason the collector's left horizon was because the attack was unexpected. So they decided to cut their losses. If they were going to earth and hit it I'm pretty damn sure they'd be prepared. Harbinger is many things...an idiot isn't one of them.  Earth isn't all powerful. The human race isn't OMG special like most sci-fi tells you. If the CB wanted to hurt them, they'd have been hurt.

And what are they going to do that will prepare for the difference in magnitude?

'Hurting' humanity is not beyond reach. You can do that with a few FTL asteroids. 'Landing in political/economic/military heart of a galactic power that beat an actual Reaper, paralyzing billions across on entire planet rather than just a city, load thousands of times as many people asany other conquest to date... and all while the local solar system and external reinforcements, with more than enough firepower to finish the Cruiser, move while the Cruiser is parked on Earth.


Harbinger might have tried... but I honestly can't see any established means of doing so. The writing to justify it would be atrocious.

The CB was probably amassing resources and just biding its time for when the strike to earth would've been most to it's advantage. Earth may have been able to damage it. But completely stop it? No.

The Thannix can stop the Collector Cruiser. Alliance fleets have far more power than a single Thannix. Ergo, the Alliance can stop it as well.

The only reason Shep stops it is A. Element of Surprise B. Shep's a God Mode Sue and C. He blew up the core (which begs the question why was there a core that could be blown up in the first place but gameplay story segregation and what not).

The base or the Collector Cruiser? The Normandy can kill the Cruiser with

Right because the all human council clearly believes Shepard's warnings.  

The Council doesn't have to believe anything. Cerberus has the protection, seeds it to a few specially selected people, and helps reorganize systems from any paralyzed people... if systems aren't already in underground, seeker-proof bunkers already.

[Dean_the_Young]

Lumikki wrote...

Yes, but terrorism doesn't have to be done because policy.

Common definitions of terrorism refer only to those violent acts which are intended to create fear (terror), are perpetrated for a religious, political or ideological goal, deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants (civilians), and are committed by non-government agencies.

If two different size aren't at war, any major violent act agaist others what can cause fear (terror) is consider as terrorism. Example terrorism can be also ideological differences between System Alliance and Cerberus what cause violent acts.

Cerberus acts aren't intended to create fear, nor do they create a public movement. Cerberus isn't even known to be involved in the vast majority of their issues, which is the antithesis of a political movement by terror.

Which, you know, is the basis of the label. Terrorism. Terror.

Example how can anyone consider this anything else than terrorism. It's direct act agaist System Alliance people. Some workers are building settlements and some basicly kills them all. What the hell you call it?

Cerberus also deliberately destroyed a settlement on Chasca by turning the colonial pioneer team there
into Husks

Answer your own non-definition: How was Chasca aimed at creating terror? What was that terror supposed to do? What political goals was it going for? What evidence of any targetting at all, when the only known Cerberus involvement was getting already huskified persons away as samples?

[Ryzaki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Collectors have always been kept close to the galactic tech curve: that's part of how they hide in the galaxy. Open usage of 'high' Reaper tech is another level: the difference between 'cutting edge' and 'several generations away'.

The Collectors were never intended to use the tech themselves. Nor did they ever need its advantage in their tasks: the Collector tech got by just fine. By the time Reaper tech actually would have helped, too late.

Or bad writing.

...The Protheans =! Collectors. Try again.  

Well...not anymore. They're the Protheans modified beyond identification except by genetic code, slaves stripped of their identity. 

The Protheans would've been helped by the technology but they never got it before being reaped and turned into Collectors. 

Like the space craft constantly taking on and off.

And you seriously don't think they can blow those ships to pieces like they did the Normandy? (Which was one of the BETTER ships?) 

Reaper armada comes in, blows **** up, rounds up prisoners, Collectors arrive without resistance and cart them away.

...Where are the reapers coming in? We're talking about the collector's. And yes it could happen that way. The Reapers made the collector's their servants for a reason. 

False delimma: the Collectors were never created with the logistical capabilities necessary to invade, hold, and seize, and Reaper tech doesn't change that limitation.

The Collector's were created to be the Reaper's servants. "Assuming Direct control" is Harbinger who is an actual Reaper possessing one of them. You think he's completely incapable of commanding them on how to attack Earth? 

'Hurting' humanity is not beyond reach. You can do that with a few FTL asteroids. 'Landing in political/economic/military heart of a galactic power that beat an actual Reaper, paralyzing billions across on entire planet rather than just a city, load thousands of times as many people asany other conquest to date... and all while the local solar system and external reinforcements, with more than enough firepower to finish the Cruiser, move while the Cruiser is parked on Earth.

...Did you forget the part where the colonies go "silent". No one knows what happens other than communications being closed off. And there are far more than just "one" collector ship. The Omega 4 Relay had quite a few of them but only one base. 

Edit: That was wrong. There are more than one ship. I'm certain they would protect the Horizon ship that would be collecting people. 

Harbinger might have tried... but I honestly can't see any established means of doing so. The writing to justify it would be atrocious.

No it wouldn't. 

The Thannix can stop the Collector Cruiser. Alliance fleets have far more power than a single Thannix. Ergo, the Alliance can stop it as well.

...Did you forget the part where the Thannix wasn't a common weapon? 

The base or the Collector Cruiser? The Normandy can kill the Cruiser with

The Normandy is one of the best ships with the best technology. Like Shepard IT IS NOT STANDARD. 

The Council doesn't have to believe anything. Cerberus has the protection, seeds it to a few specially selected people, and helps reorganize systems from any paralyzed people... if systems aren't already in underground, seeker-proof bunkers already.

...You forgot the part where Cerberus is regarded as a terrorist organization and made enemies of the alliance? You think they'd believe them? Some Cerberus members are members of the gov't sure, but so are some alliance members. And they're going to demand proof. 

And all of this insists that the attack is known when it occurs. Which knowing the Collectors. Will not be the case. It'll be the same thing with the original Normandy

Earth Guy: WTF is that? 

OG: I don't know...

*BOOM* 

"OMG ATTACK IT!" 

*BOOM*

They'd be caught with their pants down. And CS are hard enough to defeat when you catch them off guard with a top of the line ship. >_> 

And if any of the ships manage to land. *shakes head* Between collectors/husks/abominations and those...bug things that I hate that never seem to die. Humanity would get swarmed. ...Heck the only way Earth would survive is to kill them before they can get near the planet. 

Of course that's all a moot point because Shep Sue blew them to bits. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 octobre 2010 - 05:12 .

[Lumikki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Yes, but terrorism doesn't have to be done because policy.

Is there some word what you don't understand there?

Click here to understand the word of Terrorism

Modifié par Lumikki, 23 octobre 2010 - 05:13 .

[Ryzaki]

Most of the upgrades for your ship that help you survive the CB (well not lose people in game terms) are NON MILITARY STANDARD upgrades!

This is top of the line! Every military ship is *not* going to have them!
Also...Joker is "one of" if not the best pilot in the alliance military. Everyone is not going to be able to maneuver ships the way he does. If you don't upgrade your ship properly even Joker has a hard time getting you to land on the CB alive! 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 octobre 2010 - 05:21 .

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Collectors have always been kept close to the galactic tech curve: that's part of how they hide in the galaxy. Open usage of 'high' Reaper tech is another level: the difference between 'cutting edge' and 'several generations away'.

The Collectors were never intended to use the tech themselves. Nor did they ever need its advantage in their tasks: the Collector tech got by just fine. By the time Reaper tech actually would have helped, too late.

Or bad writing.[/quote]

...The Protheans =! Collectors. Try again. [/quote]Protheans were never mentioned in that quote.

[quote]
Well...not anymore. They're the Protheans modified beyond identification except by genetic code, slaves stripped of their identity. 

The Protheans would've been helped by the technology but they never got it before being reaped and turned into Collectors. [/quote]I honestly have no clue what you're responding to, because it certainly wasn't anything I posted about.


[quote]
And you seriously don't think they can blow those ships to pieces like they did the Normandy? (Which was one of the BETTER ships?) [/quote]Yes. I do think that the Collector Cruiser can't simply blow up the thousands of ships that doubtless travel around Earth atall times.

For one thing, there's a planet in the way of one hemisphere or another.

For another, there are a whole lot of them, and being able to smack any one, or five, or a dozen doesn't mean others can't move.
[quote]
...Where are the reapers coming in? We're talking about the collector's. And yes it could happen that way. The Reapers made the collector's their servants for a reason. 
[/quote]In a normal Reaping cycle. The Collectors never would have needed to be able to launch their own invasion/occupation against a species.

The Collectors are servants, but they are specialized tools. They aren't a hacksaw like the Rachni or a sledgehammer like the Geth were to be.

[quote]
The Collector's were created to be the Reaper's servants. "Assuming Direct control" is Harbinger who is an actual Reaper possessing one of them. You think he's completely incapable of commanding them on how to attack Earth? 
[/quote]'How' to attack Earth is never in question. Being able to is. Logistics don't care who you are if they suck.

[quote]
...Did you forget the part where the colonies go "silent". No one knows what happens other than communications being closed off. And there are far more than just "one" collector ship. The Omega 4 Relay had quite a few of them but only one base. [/quote]The colonies went silent with a mix of computer viruses shutting down the traffic and the seeker swarms stinging everyone. There are far, far more of both targets on Earth, and no single communication point to attack.

There was only one Collector Cruiser. One ship with logistical lift. Occuli drones were not only short-range, they were swatted like flies by a frigate, even shot down with personel weapons.

This is a matter of magnitudes of difference between a backwater colony with few sattelites and fewer defenses and the heart of one of the four most powerful species in the galaxy.


[quote]
No it wouldn't. 
[/quote]From a military standpoint, yeah. It pretty much would.

It wouldn't be a change from other Collector attacks, mind you, but then Mass Effect lore is pretty much military ignoramus in general. This is just my 'I can't suspend any higher' point.


[quote]
...Did you forget the part where the Thannix wasn't a common weapon? [/quote]That has no bearing on the analogy. At all. It's a comparison, not an inclusion.

Even without a thannix among them, an Alliance fleet would outweigh a single Thannix. And a single Thannix is all it would take to kill the Cruiser.

[quote]
The Normandy is one of the best ships with the best technology. Like Shepard IT IS NOT STANDARD. 
[/quote]The normandy isn't the most powerful ship in the galaxy by far.  It's a frigate, and the Alliance not only has Dreadnaughts, it also has fighter carriers.

And fleets of frigates.

The Alliance doesn't need to win in a one-in-one fight. It never has.
[quote]
...You forgot the part where Cerberus is regarded as a terrorist organization and made enemies of the alliance? You think they'd believe them? Some Cerberus members are members of the gov't sure, but so are some alliance members. And they're going to demand proof. [/quote]Cerberus already has contacts on various levels of the Alliance military, from the top to agents in the middle and lower. Something as minor as preparing countermeasures in secret is well within theirestablished ability to do.
[quote]
And all of this insists that the attack is known when it occurs. Which knowing the Collectors. Will not be the case. 
[/quote]Earth is is one of the political/economic capitals of the universe. What some place like Washington DC goes off the net, people notice.

The Collectors were rather blatantly saving Earth for later. Once the outlying colonies were lost, it's pretty obvious where they would go next. Process of elimination, if nothing else. (In fact, this is another of those makes-no-sense moments: the first place the Collectors should have attacked should have been Earth, to both get the greatest progress on the Reaper and to prevent anyone (like Cerberus) from detecting a pattern until it was too late.)


Which is all irrelevant to the fact that Earth doesn't need to 'prepare' to be too big for the Collector operations to work. It is already is too big. It's got bases on the moon, space ports on Mars, operations in the Asteroid Belt, and forces that can go through the Mass Relay network.

[Ryzaki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Protheans were never mentioned in that quote.

...Then you're wrong. The Collectors never fought the Reapers. The Proteans did. 

The Collectors never fought the Reapers so your imposed limits on them using Reaper technology is null and void. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 octobre 2010 - 05:30 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Lumikki wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Yes, but terrorism doesn't have to be done because policy.

Is there some word what you don't understand there?

Click here to understand the word of Terrorism

Lumikki, wikipedia, the encyclopedia anyone can edit, is not an authority on terrorism.

Nor does your article even give a working definition of the word terrorism. It makes a generalization about various generalizations... many of which still don't apply to Cerberus. (Such as, in the first paragraphs alone: "Common definitions of terrorism refer only to those violent acts which
are intended to create fear (terror),", "indiscriminate use of violence against noncombatants for the purpose of gaining publicity for a group, cause, or individuals".



I suggested to you once, and I'll suggest to you again. Pick out a working definition of terrorism. I recommend the FBI's, or the US military's, as they are two groups who have the most modern exposure and need to make distinction.

Refusing to state any definition of terrorism, however, and repeatedly linking to a wikipedia article which gives many (and as many as anyone wants to edit in) is not making a point for anything but how many of those aspects and definitions don't apply to Cerberus.

[Ryzaki]

...One Collector ship? http://masseffect.wi.../Collector_Ship

That ship in particular was stalking Shep. Not the only ship they had. 

Judging from the teams reactions upon in that CS is that they're threat to earth isn't as negilble as you think. If it was I'm certain there wouldn't have been as much concern in their voices about said CS. 

Also regarding ships. The Dreadnaughts and Frigates it would depend on what technology exactly is on the collector ships. Their weapons broke through the state of the art Normandy like butter and the Normandy did no damage to them. (Normandy = Normandy SR1) So numbers don't mean squat if you barely hurt your opponent. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 octobre 2010 - 05:40 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Elite Midget wrote...

Actyally, the Collectors being Protheans... I think Bioware retconned out the part where the slaves died of starvation when that isn't really the case. If it was than the Collectors and Keepers wouldn't have existed.

The Collectors were Protheans, they're not technically Protheans anymore, neither are the Keepers.

The Illusive Man isn't even that bad of a guy.

I don't think we've seen enough of his first-hand actions to tell that.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 23 octobre 2010 - 05:42 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
The main thing that confused me with the Paragon answer is "I won't let fear compromise who I am"... which is exactly what he ended up doing... fear of TIM compromised who he usually was (which was using every tech and teaming up with the most dangerous, (oft-times unstable-but-skilled) group he could find to stop the Reaper threat...with the Collector Mission being a counter-offensive).

Man...when are people going to stop taking this out of context?  Half the time I think you're doing it on purpose!  Seriously, that line has nothing to do with TIM.  It has to do with fear of the Reapers.  Shepard is referring to an old adage about "don't stoop to their level."  He/She is saying that they won't let fear of the Reapers make him/her stoop to the level of using their horrific technology which turned countless humans into goop to use as a part of an Eldritch Abomination robot.

They're already using "their horrific technology"... that's how they got to the Collector Base in the first place.

[Dean_the_Young]

Ryzaki wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Protheans were never mentioned in that quote.

...Then you're wrong. The Collectors never fought the Reapers. The Proteans did. 

I never said the Collectors fought the Reapers.

The Collectors never fought the Reapers so your imposed limits on them using Reaper technology is null and void.

...what?

****, no. The Collectors didn't use Reaper tech through the cycle as a strategic choice. The Reapers have kept the Collectors at about the galactic state of the art for as long as we've known the Collectors to be known. This is part of how they can remain relatively hidden in the galaxy.

High Reaper technology is just too advanced to wave away as merely 'advanced': it would attract notice, not the good kind, and the Reapers don't like their tech being exposed before they're ready. So the Collectors wouldn't be outfitted with it. They stuck with Collector-level tech on the 'how pimped out do I want my minions' equip scale.

This worked all fine and dandy until Sovereign failed and died. Collectors, who had never been involved, got bumped ot first place.

This is pretty much all established history at this point, by what various parties did and did not do.

Collectors with 'Collector' tech had no problem carrying out their colony attacks. They still had some ofthe best gear in the galaxy, with a great position behind Omega 4 relay. They didn't need to be outfitted with the high Reaper tech kept in the base for building the Reaper.

This all held true until... pretty much the very end of ME2, once Shepard could pass through the Omega 4 relay. At which point, it's would have been too late to re-equip/refit everyone and everything with the Reaper tech that had up to that point only been used for the Reaper.


And that is your simple inferred explanation for how the game lore resolves itself.

[Ryzaki]

...Where does the game say that? Please point me to the codex or anything really that says that.

Please.
The Reapers gave the Collectors their technology. 

And you keep going on about how the Collectors would've stopped the Reapers with reaper technology if they had access to it...which makes no sense considering the Collectors are a brainwashed slave raced BUILT by the Reapers! 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 octobre 2010 - 05:42 .