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[chefbobby203]

Templars also have ranged attacks. Some of them will spawn with bows

[TJPags]

chefbobby203 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Umm, those claws and teeth do NOTHING when the AD is on his perch that can't be reached by melee troops.

So, yea, effective, or 'cool'. You choose.

The AD comes back after you kill all the darkspawn......

True.  But I like doing damage at all times.

I use melee troops only for the darkspawn . . . ranged troops to go after the AD.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

I'm playing a game now where I'm doing every 'evil' thing that I normally dont' do. So no mages or elves.. just finished the Dalish quest.



My reason is purely metagaming. I have never played this so wanted to see it. In game reasons? I can't think of any personally. It just seems bad all round for everyone.



Another metagaming reason NOT to do it: (spoiler)



The werewolves dont need elf root, so no experience exploit with them

[Asepsis]

I tried to side with the werewolves JUST to see the cutscene and it was so sad I cut it off half way through, lol. I felt so guilty for even just messing around with it, lol! I take things too seriously.



I think I'm going to have to make a completely evil, selfish character to be able to watch the whole thing through. What was worse was the Zevran begged my character to spare the Dalish so I felt even worse.

[Ferretinabun]

Possible justifications I can think of:



1) The Dalish seem pretty screwed as a fighting force as it is, whereas the werewolves are a powerful force, and you want the strongest army possible to defeat the Blight.



2) When you get the option to suggest attacking the Dalish, the Lady has just revealed that Zathrian has, if not duped you, at least not told you all the facts. So blind rage at being manipulated, maybe.



3) Your character is bigoted against the Dalish. If you're human your character would probably see the elves as chattel anyway, and if you're a dwarf they could still seem pretty anti-thetical to traditional Dwarven ways.



4) You're a mage who secretly craves ultimate arcane power - and that means taking down every mage more powerful than you. And that means Zathrian - he's too powerful, and you could use his robes/staff. (A fun option to role-play. )



5) You're a character who deeply despises all magic and wants to eradicate mages. Works well for dwarves and religious human nobles.



6) Errrr... you're trying to impress the Lady so you can get inside her pants...?

[GithCheater]

I sided with the werewolves, because I did not trust Zathrian, and felt it very risky to invite Zathrian into the werewolf lair where he could "do damage from the inside". Instead, my mage lead the werewolves into the Dalish camp, where "The Lady"/Witherfang & Zathrian verbally confronted each other. Zathrian could have ended the curse in the Dalish camp by sacrificing himself, but instead sacrificed the lives of his clan.

After siding with the werewolves and murdering the elves, I wandered back into the Brecilian Forest and was angrily confronted by a few Dalish elves who questioned how I could murder an entire clan ... My explanation that Zathrian's use of blood magic created the werewolf curse satisfied the Dalish inquisitors. They indicated that they had heard this rumor and would inform other Dalish clans of Zathrian's curse.

Modifié par GithCheater, 27 octobre 2010 - 04:44 .

[Lekwid]

I could see a human noble siding with the wolves, if you rp him/her to hate the elves and look down upon them. I've only ever done it once, just for the sake of siding with the wolves because I just couldn't see a way my chars could ever justify it. Unless I made a pure evil char who just wants to raise chaos everywhere.

[TJPags]

Meh, the big problem with doing that is, without metagaming, you're eliminating one of your allies against the AD for no good reason - I'm pretty sure the were's don't agree to help you until AFTER you kill the elves.



So, basically, you're killing your own allies with no indication of any replacement.



Kind of silly.

[GithCheater]

TJPags wrote...

So, basically, you're killing your own allies with no indication of any replacement.

Actually, I recall the Lady agreeing before the Dalish attack to help against the AD, so I did have an indication of "replacement".

Because the Lady "soothed the werewolve's savage nature", I do not consider the werewolves to be inherently evil.  However, Zathrian wanted to kill the Lady (Witherfang), which would have doomed the werewolves forever to their savage nature, as the werewolves would no longer have the Lady to regularly "heal" their debilitating rage.

[Elhanan]

I almost chose this option once with my Dalish Warden, who was angry with Zathrian and his elitist views of leadership. But the only occasion I explored this option was with my evil Mage Warden as a possible 'What If?' moment, but preferred the ranged experts being in the final battle.

Plus, never choose an ally that is strongly allerigic to common plants (eg; Weres vs wolvesbane; vampires vs garlic, etc)....

[13Dannyboy13]

Wardens do what must be done to fight the blight, which would mean choosing the strongest allies to fight with. Myself, I kill the elves more than I side with them, look at it this way, Zathrian brought this on them and not only does he try and use you without telling you the whole story, he lets his whole village suffer for a personal vendetta. Not to mention the curse is keeping him alive, if any group is oppressed in the situation I'd have to think it's the wolves.

While having archers for Denerim they elves are quite weak, and don't last long especially against the AD, werewolves are tougher and stronger. As for the AD flying to that spot, just fire a few ballista bolts at him, he'll leave pretty quickly when getting pelted with those.

In the end it really comes down to personal choice, you can make valid arguments for helping either side, I think most people just side with the elves because the wolves seem "evil".

[Arthur Cousland]

I probably wouldn't be considering this option if not for achievement purposes.

I suppose that I'd have to rp my "evil" character to think along the lines of Morrigan and Sten, who'd think that weak people deserve their fate. The dalish, who run from humans and the chantry, would be seen as weak for being wanderers. Of course my other characters wouldn't think this way, but at some point during one of my playthroughs, I have to see this scenario (not just get the achievement and reload), and live with the consequences, along with defiling the sacred ashes.

It's a shame that the only way to side with the werewolves is to kill the dalish elves, who had nothing to do with their curse, besides Zathrian.

Modifié par Arthur Cousland, 28 octobre 2010 - 02:56 .

[13Dannyboy13]

Arthur Cousland wrote...

I probably wouldn't be considering this option if not for achievement purposes.

I suppose that I'd have to rp my "evil" character to think along the lines of Morrigan and Sten, who'd think that weak people deserve their fate. The dalish, who run from humans and the chantry, would be seen as weak for being wanderers. Of course my other characters wouldn't think this way, but at some point during one of my playthroughs, I have to see this scenario (not just get the achievement and reload), and live with the consequences, along with defiling the sacred ashes.

It's a shame that the only way to side with the werewolves is to kill the dalish elves, who had nothing to do with their curse, besides Zathrian.

Make sure you have Lelianna with you when you defile the ashes.  Be warned though, you will take a major hit in approval from a few charaters if you do it, whether they are there or not.
It's funny, I think the opposite of most of the posts I've read here, if I have the choice to be an evil heartless bastard in  game, I just can't help going that path. It's a lot harder making a "good" character and actually sticking with making only good choices.

[Giggles_Manically]

The werewolves are quite pathetic in the final fight.



If they can overwhelm, or get one-on one than they work ok.

When they get stunned or go up against a tougher darkspawn or a mage, they die very fast.



They have a glass chin, and running the same areas the archers do a nice level on constant damage, but dont pull that much aggro leaving me to get the darkspawn.



Also I dont side with the werewolves because the can spread the disease to make more werewolves, where as the dalish just bum around the forest. May be cheesy but 9/10 I make Zathrian end the curse and get the Dalish to help.

[sillymonkboy]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

The werewolves are quite pathetic in the final fight.

If they can overwhelm, or get one-on one than they work ok.
When they get stunned or go up against a tougher darkspawn or a mage, they die very fast.

They have a glass chin, and running the same areas the archers do a nice level on constant damage, but dont pull that much aggro leaving me to get the darkspawn.

Also I dont side with the werewolves because the can spread the disease to make more werewolves, where as the dalish just bum around the forest. May be cheesy but 9/10 I make Zathrian end the curse and get the Dalish to help.

This.

The Were's are surprisingly wimpy, at least on the higher difficulties.  Theoretically, they should be engines of mass destruction, but it just doesn't seem to work out that way.  Maybe it's the the emissaries - I'm not sure.  Maybe I'll set up my next play through in such a way that I can ignore the AD and watch closely to see what the main problem is.

As far as an in-game justification, there's:
1. Your character can believe then negative hype about the dalish.
2.  The Dalish act like a-holes to you if you aren't dalish.
3. Theoretically, the Were's should be way better warriors than the dalish.  In fact, they should be better than anything short of golems.
4. Zath comes across as pretty sketchy with a hidden agenda.
5. You're a racist.
6. Any of the many reasons already suggested.

[TJPags]

cosgamer wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Meh, the big problem with doing that is, without metagaming, you're eliminating one of your allies against the AD for no good reason - I'm pretty sure the were's don't agree to help you until AFTER you kill the elves.

So, basically, you're killing your own allies with no indication of any replacement.

Kind of silly.

The werewolves, along with Witherfang, will join you in the final fight just as the elves will.  They are actually more useful in that capacity.

Yes, but you have a treaty to make the elves help you.  The were's are an unknown about helping you.

Now, someone else mentioned that that Lady agrees to help you BEFORE you kill the elves.  I've never seen that personally, and hadn't heard that it happens before now.  If so, part of my objection is lessened.  They remain an unknown quantity, though, as they're only somewhat civilized, and personally, I can't be sure they'd show up.

[sillymonkboy]

TJPags wrote...

Yes, but you have a treaty to make the elves help you.  The were's are an unknown about helping you.

Now, someone else mentioned that that Lady agrees to help you BEFORE you kill the elves.  I've never seen that personally, and hadn't heard that it happens before now.  If so, part of my objection is lessened.  They remain an unknown quantity, though, as they're only somewhat civilized, and personally, I can't be sure they'd show up.

[devil's advocate]The treaty doesn't really guarantee that the Dalish will help.  Zathrian states that they can't honor it when you first talk to him.  Of course, you could just wander around looking for another Dalish clan, but then that clan might consider helping another Dalish clan that is suffering (rushing to Zathrian's clan aid) a higher priority than honoring the treaty.[/devil's advocate]

[ponder]Are Weres subject to the taint?  Does the blood magic super-curse that transforms them render them immune to the taint?  If not, is it possible to be come a were-darkspawn, a were-ghoul, or would the taint just kill them outright?[/ponder]

[TJPags]

sillymonkboy wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Yes, but you have a treaty to make the elves help you.  The were's are an unknown about helping you.

Now, someone else mentioned that that Lady agrees to help you BEFORE you kill the elves.  I've never seen that personally, and hadn't heard that it happens before now.  If so, part of my objection is lessened.  They remain an unknown quantity, though, as they're only somewhat civilized, and personally, I can't be sure they'd show up.

[devil's advocate]The treaty doesn't really guarantee that the Dalish will help.  Zathrian states that they can't honor it when you first talk to him.  Of course, you could just wander around looking for another Dalish clan, but then that clan might consider helping another Dalish clan that is suffering (rushing to Zathrian's clan aid) a higher priority than honoring the treaty.[/devil's advocate]

[ponder]Are Weres subject to the taint?  Does the blood magic super-curse that transforms them render them immune to the taint?  If not, is it possible to be come a were-darkspawn, a were-ghoul, or would the taint just kill them outright?[/ponder]

[devil's advocate response] which is why you have to kill the were's - Zathrien says if you do that, they'll be free to help you.  [/devil's advocate response]

[ponder response]were-darkspawn???  Now that would be interesting . . . . [/ponder response]

[rant] you know, it would be nice it ONE group of people agreed to help you without making you run around like an errand boy/girl[/rant]

[sillymonkboy]

TJPags wrote...

[rant] you know, it would be nice it ONE group of people agreed to help you without making you run around like an errand boy/girl[/rant]

Amen, Sir.  Amen.

[chefbobby203]

After you tell the werewolves that you will attack the dalish you get a dialogue option that says "The Grey Wardens need allies, I'll take you over the elves".



It's interesting that people think siding with the werewolves is evil though. Zathrian lies to you in attempt to get you to commit werewolf genocide, even though he knows full well that the curse they suffer was one he started. When you confront him in the camp with the werewolves they demand that he remove the curse, but he would rather see his entire clan die than have that happen. Honestly, I'd feel much worse killing the werewolves after they beg you for help

[Mr_Steph]

Well I've done it on two occasions.



The first was with a HN who hated elves and when she arrived at the Dalish camp and was badly treated she almost left so when she learned about the werewolfes she saw it as an opportunity to get payback and let out the steam of years of hate for the elves.



The other one was with a DN who basically followed the Grey Warden agenda...take every ally we can get and being a dwarf helped him see that the werewolfes where more powerful and thus more helpful in beating damn darkspawn.

[TJPags]

chefbobby203 wrote...

After you tell the werewolves that you will attack the dalish you get a dialogue option that says "The Grey Wardens need allies, I'll take you over the elves".

It's interesting that people think siding with the werewolves is evil though. Zathrian lies to you in attempt to get you to commit werewolf genocide, even though he knows full well that the curse they suffer was one he started. When you confront him in the camp with the werewolves they demand that he remove the curse, but he would rather see his entire clan die than have that happen. Honestly, I'd feel much worse killing the werewolves after they beg you for help

You know, you don't HAVE to kill the weres . . .you can, ummm, cure them and make them people again.
Results in cured weres, fine Dalish, and dead Zathrien - seems to be win-win-win.

[Arthur Cousland]

13Dannyboy13 wrote...

Arthur Cousland wrote...

I probably wouldn't be considering this option if not for achievement purposes.

I suppose that I'd have to rp my "evil" character to think along the lines of Morrigan and Sten, who'd think that weak people deserve their fate. The dalish, who run from humans and the chantry, would be seen as weak for being wanderers. Of course my other characters wouldn't think this way, but at some point during one of my playthroughs, I have to see this scenario (not just get the achievement and reload), and live with the consequences, along with defiling the sacred ashes.

It's a shame that the only way to side with the werewolves is to kill the dalish elves, who had nothing to do with their curse, besides Zathrian.

Make sure you have Lelianna with you when you defile the ashes.  Be warned though, you will take a major hit in approval from a few charaters if you do it, whether they are there or not.
It's funny, I think the opposite of most of the posts I've read here, if I have the choice to be an evil heartless bastard in  game, I just can't help going that path. It's a lot harder making a "good" character and actually sticking with making only good choices.

Normally, I prefer to be the knight in shining armor, but I'm liking my dwarf commoner so far.  It's a nice change killing people and acting like it's just business.  After running into Oskias, I've gotten hooked.

[GithCheater]

TJPags wrote...

chefbobby203 wrote...

After you tell the werewolves that you will attack the dalish you get a dialogue option that says "The Grey Wardens need allies, I'll take you over the elves".

It's interesting that people think siding with the werewolves is evil though. Zathrian lies to you in attempt to get you to commit werewolf genocide, even though he knows full well that the curse they suffer was one he started. When you confront him in the camp with the werewolves they demand that he remove the curse, but he would rather see his entire clan die than have that happen. Honestly, I'd feel much worse killing the werewolves after they beg you for help

You know, you don't HAVE to kill the weres . . .you can, ummm, cure them and make them people again.
Results in cured weres, fine Dalish, and dead Zathrien - seems to be win-win-win.

Although curing the werewolves is the ideal solution, it takes a giant leap of faith to trust Zathrian.

It seems foolhardy to invite zathrian into the werewolf camp and risk him pulling a double cross.

It all depends on how you role play.  I played one character that was more trusting and she picked the ideal solution, while my other character played as a cynic and picked the werewolves.