20 réponses à ce sujet

[tiberius_adamantine]

I'm not sure how to feel about this group so I hope to get a few thoughts on the subject. When the character meets them, its good to know that they support mages being free from the chantry. Some of the quests seem good, such as getting rid of the malificars in the forest. However, the scroll of banastor and places of power make me have a little doubt as to their true intentions/practices. These could have bad consequences if the mages in the collective are evil by giving them a blood magic ritual and channeling power across Fereldan. If they're not bad though, I don't want to cause their destruction. Does anyone have thoughts on this? I apologize if this has been asked before.

[Xilizhra]

The Mage's Collective has never given me compelling evidence to think that the majority of its membership is up to nefarious ends. Some individuals in it might be, though.

[LobselVith8]

I saved the Mages Collective; they're in place to help mages. It's a better system than the Ferelden Circle, that can murder a mage on suspicion alone or turns them tranquil, removing all emotion so they can be a rune-crafting slave. All the Chantry does is try to control mages; even Alistair admits that the lyrium addiction that the templars suffer from is likely a form of control to prevent any of the templars from taking power from them (which is a good possibility since Alistair is fully capable of using his templar abilities without the use of lyrium).

[DWSmiley]

tiberius_adamantine wrote...

I'm not sure how to feel about this group so I hope to get a few thoughts on the subject. When the character meets them, its good to know that they support mages being free from the chantry. Some of the quests seem good, such as getting rid of the malificars in the forest. However, the scroll of banastor and places of power make me have a little doubt as to their true intentions/practices. These could have bad consequences if the mages in the collective are evil by giving them a blood magic ritual and channeling power across Fereldan. If they're not bad though, I don't want to cause their destruction. Does anyone have thoughts on this? I apologize if this has been asked before.

I'm playing a devout believer right now - a first for me - and I'm having the same doubts.  My pc is sympathetic to the desire for some freedom but the Banastor and places of power quests are definitely dodgy.   She’s decided not to complete them.  Also, she regrets giving lyrium potions to the templar in Redcliffe and refused the Denerim quest to warn relatives of those accused of being blood mages. 

[tiberius_adamantine]

The evidence seems to contradict itself. On one hand, it seems suspicious that there are a number of reports against the collective following the scolls of banastor and the sites of power. However, seeing as many people in that world are biased anyway, they could be just saying this out of fear of magic itself. But the blood of warning supports the suspicion a little. However, they also ask you to eliminate malificarum in the forest, which is the strongest evidence against the suspicion. If they were evil mages, why get rid of the evil mages in the forest?

Modifié par tiberius_adamantine, 21 octobre 2010 - 07:28 .

[LobselVith8]

tiberius_adamantine wrote...

The evidence seems to contradict itself. On one hand, it seems suspicious that there are a number of reports against the collective following the scolls of banastor and the sites of power. However, seeing as many people in that world are biased anyway, they could be just saying this out of fear of magic itself. But the blood of warning supports the suspicion a little. However, they also ask you to eliminate malificarum in the forest, which is the strongest evidence against the suspicion. If they were evil mages, why get rid of the evil mages in the forest?

They're not evil. I'm certain that there are good and bad among them, but overall, it's merely an effort to govern themselves. And warning the families is about warning people related to blood mages against possible attack from the templars. After all, look at the description for the Charlatan's Walking Stick:

"The Magnificent D'Sims was an elven "healer" who "cured" hayseeds of nonexistent ailments. Even though it was all a scam, the templars declared him apostate and took off his head. Oddly, his staff turned out to be genuinely enchanted."

There's a prime example of how templars might end up killing innocents under the assumption that they are dangerous blood mages.

[DWSmiley]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm certain that there are good and bad among them, but overall, it's merely an effort to govern themselves.

I agree the collective has good and bad members but that means helping them is not just about freedom.  The bad ones will do bad things and my warden has seen first hand just how nasty blood mages can be - at the Tower and their nest in Denerim.  She also realizes templars can be over-zealous in their duties, so it becomes a tough call.  Do you warn the relatives and risk helping a blood mage escape capture?  As far as you know, the templars only want to question the relatives.  But not warning them risks having an innocent suffer at the hands of a zealot.  DA:O delights in confronting players with decisions like this.

Modifié par DWSmiley, 21 octobre 2010 - 08:01 .

[LobselVith8]

DWSmiley wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm certain that there are good and bad among them, but overall, it's merely an effort to govern themselves.

I agree the collective has good and bad members but that means helping them is not just about freedom.  The bad ones will do bad things and my warden has seen first hand just how nasty blood mages can be - at the Tower and their nest in Denerim.  She also realizes templars can be over-zealous in their duties, so it becomes a tough call.  Do you warn the relatives and risk helping a blood mage escape capture?  As far as you know, the templars only want to question the relatives.  But not warning them risks having an innocent suffer at the hands of a zealot.  DA:O delights in confronting players with decisions like this.

Templars kill blood mages, they don't question them. That's the reason the elven healer I mentioned above was killed, despite the fact that his "healing" was entirely ficticious. As for the incident at the Tower, it steamed from Uldred's use of demonology, since there's no actual proof that Uldred himself was a blood mage. In fact, Duncan admits that some Grey Wardens have had to resort to blood magic to combat the darkspawn.

[wickedgoodreed]

I see the Collective as being similar to the Blackstone Irregulars in its deliberate ambiguity. Some of the Irregulars quests such as Grease the Wheels and Dereliction of Duty are very shady as well. If you do them all you eventually find out that one leader of the organization, Taoran, wants to transform the Irregulars into a corrupt mafia while the other leader, Raelnor, wants to keep them as an upstanding mercenary group. Similary with the Collective, I get the distinct impression that there are some individuals who are genuinely trying to live up to the organization's mission statement, while there are also some individuals who are taking advantage.



As a general rule, my warden helps where she can, but realizes that trying to untangle and solve all of these problems whilst also taking on the Blight is beyond her limited capabilities. And when it gets to be too murky, she doesn't want to get involved. I typically like to support both causes though so I pick and choose the quests I'm comfortable with. I'll do a few of the obviously benign ones, but stop short of propagating "dark and terrible" blood magic secrets. My reasoning is that if there is bad amongst them as I suspect, helping those particular individuals would actually hurt the cause of mages governing themselves.

[Kernel Cinders]

I view The Chantry and their lyrium-addicted Templar watchdogs as a bunch of fascist, pig-headed prigs who fear magic because they do not understand it and cannot control it, so they shove everyone who is born with the gift into a tower under close supervision to prevent them from becoming an abomination? Nice try. Not buying it.



The people in charge of the Chantry will never truly accept magic as a part of their world because of the destruction it caused in the past, but yet they allow people like Howe to become an Arl . . .



Magic and steel are instruments that can be used to protect the weak or slaughter the innocent. Power in of itself is not inherently good or evil, but the misuse of power is dangerous to all, irregardless of the source.

[DWSmiley]

LobselVith8 wrote...

DWSmiley wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm certain that there are good and bad among them, but overall, it's merely an effort to govern themselves.

I agree the collective has good and bad members but that means helping them is not just about freedom.  The bad ones will do bad things and my warden has seen first hand just how nasty blood mages can be - at the Tower and their nest in Denerim.  She also realizes templars can be over-zealous in their duties, so it becomes a tough call.  Do you warn the relatives and risk helping a blood mage escape capture?  As far as you know, the templars only want to question the relatives.  But not warning them risks having an innocent suffer at the hands of a zealot.  DA:O delights in confronting players with decisions like this.

Templars kill blood mages, they don't question them. That's the reason the elven healer I mentioned above was killed, despite the fact that his "healing" was entirely ficticious. As for the incident at the Tower, it steamed from Uldred's use of demonology, since there's no actual proof that Uldred himself was a blood mage. In fact, Duncan admits that some Grey Wardens have had to resort to blood magic to combat the darkspawn.

Templars kill blood mages but not relatives  - at least, decent templars do not.  Of course, if your pc believes the Chantry is rotten to the core then you will not expect any decent behaviour by a templar, but my current pc has a generally positive view of the Chantry.

Blood magic is linked with demonolgy.  It comes from demons - that's mentioned in the codices somewhere and you also learn it from Avernus.  That's one reason blood magic is dangerous.  The fact that it is all about mind domination is pretty damning, too.

Yes, wardens do whatever it takes to end the Blight but most of my wardens have limits, nevertheless.

[tool_bot]

DWSmiley wrote...
 She’s decided not to complete them.  Also, she regrets giving lyrium potions to the templar in Redcliffe and refused the Denerim quest to warn relatives of those accused of being blood mages. 

I'm sure whatever judge ruled over them was very kind and understanding and didn't label them heretics out of association as was the fashion (and remains the fashion) in theocratic regions.

[tiberius_adamantine]

I have no problems with blood magic, as long as it isn't abused but this applies to many things. Blood magic itself is very useful, for damaging and disabling opponents and to continuously cast spells where you otherwise might not be able to. It was taught by demons but that doesn't mean it can't be used for good causes. Malificarum or however it is spelled are the ones that work with demons, if I'm not mistaken. The only problem with not completing the whole questline is that it would lack closure. If your choices here have results in another game, not completing it would likely set it at a default or otherwise just wouldn't get mentioned.

Modifié par tiberius_adamantine, 22 octobre 2010 - 01:22 .

[DWSmiley]

It can be used for good causes but it's doubtful the mages seeking the scrolls of Banastor and places of power have good intentions. And the practice of blood magic gives reason for concern - the Tevinter archon history, Uldred and his coterie, the blood mages in the Brecilian Forest, the blood mage hideout in Denerim, Caladrius. Avernus, too, smugly torturing his fellow wardens to death.

[errant_knight]

tiberius_adamantine wrote...

I'm not sure how to feel about this group so I hope to get a few thoughts on the subject. When the character meets them, its good to know that they support mages being free from the chantry. Some of the quests seem good, such as getting rid of the malificars in the forest. However, the scroll of banastor and places of power make me have a little doubt as to their true intentions/practices. These could have bad consequences if the mages in the collective are evil by giving them a blood magic ritual and channeling power across Fereldan. If they're not bad though, I don't want to cause their destruction. Does anyone have thoughts on this? I apologize if this has been asked before.

I had the same qualms about them, and since I play a 'good' character, I don't do the quests. Waaaayyy to hinky, I thought.

I didn't know you could destroy them. How does that happen? Don't know that I'd do that either without proof, although my gut feeling is that these guys are trouble.

I did think that the warning quest and the scrolls of bannestor pointed to a blood magic thing. The quest to stop the 'informant' is completely undoable for my character. When you talk to the guy, there's absolutely nothing to indicate that he isn't an honest citizen and in his way to deliver honest testimony. And, while my warrior would like mages to have more freedom and protection from unwarrented persecution, she wouldn't want them to go without templar supervision entirely, so she's not really with their end goals either.

Modifié par errant_knight, 22 octobre 2010 - 05:20 .

[CalJones]

I always support them. I can't bring myself to play a pro-Chantry character as I'm very sceptical of such heavily enforced religion in reality.

[DWSmiley]

CalJones wrote...

I always support them. I can't bring myself to play a pro-Chantry character as I'm very sceptical of such heavily enforced religion in reality.

That was me, too, until I decided to play a pro-Chantry character and it's made me realize my other wardens were too nonchalant about it.  Blood magic's dark reputation is well earned and some of the collective's quests are far from benign.  Sure, if sparing a maleficar was vital to defeating the Blight, that's what a warden should do.  But not helping a malevolent mage become more powerful for the sake of a few gold pieces.

Add to that one's own experiences...Several nasty mages are encountered but the clerics and templars are a decent bunch - never malevolent and often greatly concerned about the welfare of others.  Even a pc who starts with a bias aganist the Chantry might mellow.

It could well be that the collective was started by well-intentioned mages seeking only some freedom.  But unsavoury sorts have obviously begun using it to further their own ambitions.

Modifié par DWSmiley, 22 octobre 2010 - 01:08 .

[LobselVith8]

DWSmiley wrote...

Templars kill blood mages but not relatives  - at least, decent templars do not.  Of course, if your pc believes the Chantry is rotten to the core then you will not expect any decent behaviour by a templar, but my current pc has a generally positive view of the Chantry.

That's the entire point of helping the relatives - avoiding any altercation with templars who might kill them simply for being related to suspected blood mages. There's also precedence for this type of behavior: the elven "healer" who I mentioned above (who had absolutely no magical abilities and was still killed by the templars), Wynne's apprentice who was fourteen years old (and the templars hunting him down had no issue trying to killing him),  and Knight-Commander Rylock has no issue trying to murder Anders and the Warden-Commander.

DWSmiley wrote...

Blood magic is linked with demonolgy.  It comes from demons - that's mentioned in the codices somewhere and you also learn it from Avernus.  That's one reason blood magic is dangerous.  The fact that it is all about mind domination is pretty damning, too.

Yes, wardens do whatever it takes to end the Blight but most of my wardens have limits, nevertheless.

How is blood magic linked with demonology? Blood magic and demonology are two different schools of magic. You can't say summoning demons is the same as using blood instead of mana. And blood magic isn't all about mind domination - it's mainly about using the blood as opposed to mana to power magic.

DWSmiley wrote...

It can be used for good causes but it's doubtful the mages seeking the scrolls of Banastor and places of power have good intentions. And the practice of blood magic gives reason for concern - the Tevinter archon history, Uldred and his coterie, the blood mages in the Brecilian Forest, the blood mage hideout in Denerim, Caladrius. Avernus, too, smugly torturing his fellow wardens to death.

Or it could be an issue of how the Chantry conditions mages to become as powerful as possible in order to survive against the templars who hunt them down and kill them. The Chantry isn't blameless in this; one can merely look at the past actions to see that. There's the destruction of the Dales, the illegalization of the elven pantheon, the subjugation of the mages, and the genocide of two towns by armies who were lead by the Chantry, as the codex about the Qunari and the Chantry's actions during the New Exalted Marches testifies:

As each year passed, the Chantry pushed further and further into the qunari lines. Dealing with those of the local populace which had converted to the qunari religion proved difficult, especially as some of these had lived under the qun now for generations, and the response by many armies was simply to exterminate all those who had converted. Officially the Chantry denies this, claiming most converts fled north into Rivain and Par Vollen, but the mass graves at Nocen Fields and Marnus Pell attest otherwise. Indeed, so many were slain at Marnus Pell that the Veil is said to be permanently sundered, the ruins still plagued by restless corpses to this day. - an excerpt from the “Tales of the Destruction of Thedas” by Brother Genitivi, Chantry Scholar.

DWSmiley wrote...

CalJones wrote...

I always support them. I can't bring myself to play a pro-Chantry character as I'm very sceptical of such heavily enforced religion in reality.

That was me, too, until I decided to play a pro-Chantry character and it's made me realize my other wardens were too nonchalant about it.  Blood magic's dark reputation is well earned and some of the collective's quests are far from benign.  Sure, if sparing a maleficar was vital to defeating the Blight, that's what a warden should do.  But not helping a malevolent mage become more powerful for the sake of a few gold pieces.

Add to that one's own experiences...Several nasty mages are encountered but the clerics and templars are a decent bunch - never malevolent and often greatly concerned about the welfare of others.  Even a pc who starts with a bias aganist the Chantry might mellow.

It could well be that the collective was started by well-intentioned mages seeking only some freedom.  But unsavoury sorts have obviously begun using it to further their own ambitions.

You're assuming that's the reason behind the quests; the truth is we have no idea, and we can only speculate. You're thinking the worst of the mages in question. The mages have had no freedom for nearly 900 years, and templars have had the right to cull Circles for over 700 years. Mages can't marry in some Circles, they can't raise their own children, and they get turned tranquil (rune crafting slaves with no emotions) or killed if a templar labels them maleficar, regardless of whether there's any evidence to support this (as in the case of Wynne's fourteen year old apprentice, who narrlowly survived his encounter with the templars to become a healer among Zathrian's Dalish clan). One can look to past civilizations like Arlathan and the Dales as proof that mages don't need to be imprisoned, or current societies like the Dalish clans, Rivain, and even Haven (for all its flaws).

[DWSmiley]

LobselVith8 wrote...

DWSmiley wrote...

Templars kill blood mages but not relatives - at least, decent templars do not. Of course, if your pc believes the Chantry is rotten to the core then you will not expect any decent behavior by a templar, but my current pc has a generally positive view of the Chantry.

That's the entire point of helping the relatives - avoiding any altercation with templars who might kill them simply for being related to suspected blood mages. There's also precedence for this type of behavior.

There is precedent but one has to weigh the unknowns. How likely is it that these particular templars are of the “kill them all and let the Maker sort them out” variety? How likely is it that the suspects are blood mages? If they are blood mages, how likely is it that they are malevolent?

LobselVith8 wrote...
How is blood magic linked with demonology? Blood magic and demonology are two different schools of magic. You can't say summoning demons is the same as using blood instead of mana. And blood magic isn't all about mind domination - it's mainly about using the blood as opposed to mana to power magic.

From the Scrolls of Banastor:
To align with the power of the Fade is but the first of many steps. Further is to align the mind to the Fade's rules and find the ties between the realm of the dream and the realm of the flesh. This is the true power of blood magic: the flesh and the mind are inseparable, and therein lies the power to influence and control minds.

The Scrolls go on to talk about the connection of reasoning to blood and how this may be used to attack the mind. And it also urges mages to seek power from demons, “Force them into servitude or pledge your heart to them.”

LobselVith8 wrote...

DWSmiley wrote...

It can be used for good causes but it's doubtful the mages seeking the scrolls of Banastor and places of power have good intentions. And the practice of blood magic gives reason for concern - the Tevinter archon history, Uldred and his coterie, the blood mages in the Brecilian Forest, the blood mage hideout in Denerim, Caladrius. Avernus, too, smugly torturing his fellow wardens to death.

Or it could be an issue of how the Chantry conditions mages to become as powerful as possible in order to survive against the templars who hunt them down and kill them. The Chantry isn't blameless in this; one can merely look at the past actions to see that.

The Chantry is not blameless but that doesn’t make it an either/or issue. The history of blood magic is long and dark; it is not just about using it to defend against templars.

LobselVith8 wrote...

DWSmiley wrote...

It could well be that the collective was started by well-intentioned mages seeking only some freedom. But unsavory sorts have obviously begun using it to further their own ambitions.

You're assuming that's the reason behind the quests; the truth is we have no idea, and we can only speculate. You're thinking the worst of the mages in question. The mages have had no freedom for nearly 900 years, and templars have had the right to cull Circles for over 700 years.

I am sympathetic to the mages desire for more freedom. But, again, that the Chantry has done bad things does not make it reasonable to unquestioningly support power-hungry mages. Do you get no sense of concern about why a mage wants the scrolls of Banastor, which contain a diagram of a blood magic ritual and “arcane glyphs, terrible and dark in their implications”? Or why another wants you to visit places of power – places of death magic, seemingly – and "trace upon them my personal glyphs, claiming their eldritch energies for my own”?


Edit: Also, Avernus mentions something about his blood magic being useless against demons because it comes from them, so they can counter anything he does with it.

Modifié par DWSmiley, 22 octobre 2010 - 07:57 .

[MB957]

I always help them. It's fun running around doing side quests! My first playthrough, I missed it, (along with a gajillion other things, and thats with the game guide book..lol). So on my second runthrough, I accidentaly done them in...lol! I thought I was helping, but delivered the message to the templar in denirum. sigh. on 3rd playthrough, I finally figured it out and was able to help my fellow mages who wanted to work free of the circle! My first 8 or 9 plays of the game were as a mage PC. Then a few as rouge, and now mostly as warrior. But I still help the mages collective!

[Ashaman X]

I always help the mage collective, as side quests are fun and give me extra cash and XP. I do agree that some of the quests are a bit dodgy, but my mage does them anyway. She respects the Templars, but is tired of their constant whining and attitudes toward mages. On the other hand, she has helped quite a few Templars as well in their quests, so it's not all bad.