Play Diablo 2 LOD Hardcore and go solo Baal with your level 90+ without teleporting all the way! Oh, and survive, of course. Blizzard may have screwed WoW, I wouldn't know, never played it (L2 was much better to me) but they got it very right with D2. New patches made the game a lot harder and on Hardcore, that can mean losing a char you've been playing a long time, for good. All it takes is a little distraction, overconfidence or plain stupidity!
Will DA2 follow the current trend of easy / easier games?
Débuté par
FellowerOfOdin
, oct. 21 2010 09:08
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#27
Posté 21 octobre 2010 - 10:58
Onyx Jaguar
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Games of the past were made to punish the player in order to artificially enhance the time or in the case of Arcade games (to console games) it was so that the player was to spend more money. The effect this had on most however is that they just quit playing the game.
Also the move from 2D to 3D has lowered the difficulty curve as it gives you more freedom of movement.
For instance compare Freespace to something like Gradius, or Mega Man to somethink like Max Payne. You have full ability to dodge and you are trained to use it, while in something like Gradius and Mega Man you do not have much room for error (think of it this way one plane is filled with bullets while in the case of Freespace it would be nonsensical to fill the 3D field with bullets).
In other games it was simply a balance issue or even bad level design. Look at Doom, ****ing fantastic. Not really that difficult. Half-Life gets difficult at the end comparitively, because the level design gets horrible.
In the case of Eastern RPGs they did something rather ingenious. Starting with Dragon Quest you theoritically could go through the game on skill and planning alone, but it also gave you incentive to continue playing and get stronger so in essence anyone could beat the game.
Contrast that with Western RPGs which are almost like RPG sims. Rampant perma-death and high penalties for death. I mean if I am playing Wizardry and I just got my entire party killed for the 4th time on the first floor, what is my incentive to build a new party again just to see if I can finally beat it? I have better things to do with my time (hell in Wizardry 6 I even noticed that the stats you could give to your characters was in fact randomized which is absurdly stupid).
Then you have games like Pool of Radiance which will kill you right away if you do not know how to play it. THis is pervasive in many games. There is no difficulty curve, they will not teach you how to play. This is frustrating. IMO something like Rogue is much more fun because it is simply even though it has perma-death and can kill you right away, but it is faster and simpler so it is not as much of a time sink. I mean its great going around for 2 ours in Wizardry then getting annihilated and not having enough money to revive my characters.
Baldur's Gate is somewhat difficult, but at least it is open enough to allow you to do what you please as you get adjusted. Its issue is that the game lies to you in a way because it tells you to go to a place right away even though you definately should not at all listen to this advice.
Also the move from 2D to 3D has lowered the difficulty curve as it gives you more freedom of movement.
For instance compare Freespace to something like Gradius, or Mega Man to somethink like Max Payne. You have full ability to dodge and you are trained to use it, while in something like Gradius and Mega Man you do not have much room for error (think of it this way one plane is filled with bullets while in the case of Freespace it would be nonsensical to fill the 3D field with bullets).
In other games it was simply a balance issue or even bad level design. Look at Doom, ****ing fantastic. Not really that difficult. Half-Life gets difficult at the end comparitively, because the level design gets horrible.
In the case of Eastern RPGs they did something rather ingenious. Starting with Dragon Quest you theoritically could go through the game on skill and planning alone, but it also gave you incentive to continue playing and get stronger so in essence anyone could beat the game.
Contrast that with Western RPGs which are almost like RPG sims. Rampant perma-death and high penalties for death. I mean if I am playing Wizardry and I just got my entire party killed for the 4th time on the first floor, what is my incentive to build a new party again just to see if I can finally beat it? I have better things to do with my time (hell in Wizardry 6 I even noticed that the stats you could give to your characters was in fact randomized which is absurdly stupid).
Then you have games like Pool of Radiance which will kill you right away if you do not know how to play it. THis is pervasive in many games. There is no difficulty curve, they will not teach you how to play. This is frustrating. IMO something like Rogue is much more fun because it is simply even though it has perma-death and can kill you right away, but it is faster and simpler so it is not as much of a time sink. I mean its great going around for 2 ours in Wizardry then getting annihilated and not having enough money to revive my characters.
Baldur's Gate is somewhat difficult, but at least it is open enough to allow you to do what you please as you get adjusted. Its issue is that the game lies to you in a way because it tells you to go to a place right away even though you definately should not at all listen to this advice.
#28
Posté 21 octobre 2010 - 10:59
FellowerOfOdin
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[quote]Chris Priestly wrote...
Once everyone comes to an agreement on what is or is not difficult*, we will adjust our game design accordingly. Until then, we will continue to put it differing levels of difficulty to let players adjust the difficulty as they see fit.
[/quote]
I think we can go with "Cheese" here!
Anyway, first of all, thanks for the post of course. Secondly, having different levels of difficulty is cool and allows every player to pick either a very easy game or a challenging time, but that was the problem in Awakening and DA:Origins: the highest available difficulty level was neither difficult nor challenging for experienced players - and shouldn't that be the point of the hardest difficulty?
To all complaining about so-called "cheap deaths" - that's your personal view and maybe, you simply did not grow up with the games of the past that were, for most parts, a lot more difficult and required a lot more strategy, tactics and meta-game knowledge. Hey, imagine a time without internet where you had to write everything down on your own and there was nothing like Gamefaqs telling you exactly what to do...that was core gaming as its best.
As to the "cheap" - those weren't cheap. At all. In the contrary, they were fair. Enemies could roll a critical hit and deal the same damage with a normal hero. They get a critical hit, they kill you. That's not unfair, that's the most fair design a game can get, granting your enemies the same chance as yourself.
Furthermore, you knew what you were getting. You knew that you could get ambushed at night and you knew that your enemies could easily land a critical hit as well. Cheap? Fair. We stil lhad different difficulties of course where enemies dealt less damage, could not score critical hits, etc., but if you played by the rules, you had a very fair game that was challenging yet extremely rewarding at the same time.
I know that most players nowadays are used to very easy games, that's just how the market works right now, but there still are core gamers who want a real challenge and having one difficulty level that's really challenging for those players would be really fair. If you aren't man enough to make it - choose another difficulty!
Now, what exactly is it that makes a game challenging, or rather, what made Dragon Age so easy?
[quote]i.) Enemies did not have enough hitpoints / armor: Even on nightmare, a tank could still kill the generic enemies with a few hits and archers usually needed a single Split Shot to reduce the health of nearby enemies by 25%.[/quote]
[quote]ii.) Enemies did not deal enough damage: Tanks were almost immune to physical damage at a very early point because of the combination of high armor + shield and a high dexterity, allowing them to either dodge or block enemy damage. Even at the end of Origins, Elite mobs and higher dealt ~10 damage or less to tanks, normal enemies did not deal any damage at all. [/quote]
[quote]iii.) Enemies did not make use of their skills / did not have enough skills: Most of the time, even on Nightmare, enemies usually resorted to auto-attacking and rarely used skills against allies, sometimes even wasting their stamina on useless skills e.g. Below the Belt instead of effective ones.[/quote]
[quote]vi.) The aggro system was flawed: To sum it up, it did not work at all. A tank usually had to run in, use Taunt and he was able to maintain aggro for the rest of the fight assuming that you play it smart and do not use any cone spells. This is a very big flaw as it resulted in fights being extremely easy and no challenge at all.[/quote]
[quote]v.) Enemies did not have a (working?) priority system: Most of the time, when the enemy had casters, they used their CC to affect the first target who gets in sight and that's, you guessed it, the tank who wants to get hit anyway. Enemies did not play it smart, rogues e.g. usually did the same instead of immediately going invisible to kite mages or other targets with low armor in order to cause maximum havoc.[/quote]
[quote]vi.) Too much CC: Every class had several ways to CC the enemy and every class had at least 1 AoE CC skill - that's quite an overkill here as it allowed you to permanently keep the enemies down while you slash them without mercy.[/quote]
[quote]vii.) Too effective healing: Healing is always good yet it's a extremely difficult factor to balance - and in my opinion, healing was not balanced well. Every mage had access to 2 healing skills (only including party heal skills here, not e.g. Life Drain) and Spirit Healers got 3 more, resulting in a total of 5 healing skills. The primary heal that everyone had access to had a very low cooldown paired with very low mana cost thus allowing everyone to spam it like there was no tomorrow - and just imagine the +healing items would have actually worked[/quote]
[quote]viii.) Overpowered mages: Mages were by far the best class in Dragon Age - they had everything. Lots of AoE damage, more CC than someone would have ever imagined and even healing...whew.[/quote]
[quote]ix.) Overpowered talents: Mostly Awakening where warriors get their AoE-instagib, auto crits, etc. - almost all Top 4 talents were downright overpowered.[/quote]
[quote]x.) Too predictable enemies: That's a very vital point, enemies were just too predictable! Similar to what I stated above, enemies usually auto-attacked and attacked the first target they see. Rogues go in stealth just to appear at the exact same spot, archer did not focus weak targets and worst of all: most of the time, you had the classical JRPG positioning: you and the enemies face each other and the battle begins.[/quote]
******************************************************************************************************************************
Now, what could be done to actually improve the situation (gotta be constructive at least!)?
[quote]i.) Drastically increase the enemies' armor, hitpoints and resistance, making them tougher to kill while...[/quote]
[quote]ii.) ...also making them a bigger threat by increasing their damage output both physical and magical, forcing the player to very carefully pick the targets or be devastated. [/quote]
Note: Nightmare plus took that approach and increased HP / damage by enemies...and it was awesome!
[quote]iii.) Give the enemies the same or equally strong skills as the player group and let them use them at free will. When the Mage gets stunned or disabled all the time and thus cannot heal or CC himself, you actually have to position your squad in a careful and intelligent way.[/quote]
[quote]iv.) Heavily reduce the amount of aggro gained by AoE aggro skills and increase the aggro produced by healing, magic damage and attack damage (in this order) as it will lead to a higher threat for your DDs and mages - the guys with the low armor who are most dangerous.[/quote]
[quote]v.) That's the most difficult part I guess, the AI. I can only imagine that it's incredibly hard to code a AI especially with features such a smart target choosing (weak targets first, kite targets, stun people who try to stop you from killing them etc.) so basically, it's hard to say what's actually possible or not.[/quote]
[quote]vi.) Heavily, heavily decrease CC. Limit it to 1 single-target skill for Fighters / Rogues and 1 AoE +2-3 Single Target skills for mages. Battles aren't hard when you can basically stun the entire enemy team...[/quote]
[quote]vii.) Less healing spells, all of them only available for designated healers and at least +100% cooldown while increasing aggro (see above) to weaken spam healing and encourage effective healing.[/quote]
[quote]viii.) Drastically nerf mages, making them less of an allrounder class and more of a extremely fragile class with various specializations...with a lot less CC.[/quote]
[quote]ix.) Can't say much here as it's about balance alone and that's something nobody can truly master. Then again, instagib spells / skills (especially AoE!) can easily turn out to be cheap and in the end, it all boils down to playtesting and community feedback :happy:[/quote]
[quote]x.) Have more ambushes with enemies attacking from all sides, enemies at hard to reach positions, have a squad trying to fall in your back, etc., more variation would be awesome, just having them placed right in your face gets boring after a while and makes fights very easy (especially with stuff like open door => close door => Cast Tempest / Inferno).[/quote]
Phew:o
This is not meant to be a "LOL BIOWARE THAT'S HOW YOU CODE A GAME LOL NOOBZ" thread or reply, I am in no position to give any sort of order to anyone in the team and I am fully aware of the fact that Bioware DOES know how to balance stuff (Baldur's Gate series rawr!), it's just one opinion from one guy who played Dragon Age and felt being massively unchallenged even on Nightmare.
As Chris already stated, there will never be a consensus on what "difficulty" really means yet I tried to give a short glimpse at why I think that Dragon Age was too easy and not challenging. It's one thing to say that the game was too say but it's something else when you tell people why!
So, I guess most people did not read that monster of a post anyway, but thanks to all who did!
Best regards,
Fellower of Odin
Once everyone comes to an agreement on what is or is not difficult*, we will adjust our game design accordingly. Until then, we will continue to put it differing levels of difficulty to let players adjust the difficulty as they see fit.
[/quote]
I think we can go with "Cheese" here!
Anyway, first of all, thanks for the post of course. Secondly, having different levels of difficulty is cool and allows every player to pick either a very easy game or a challenging time, but that was the problem in Awakening and DA:Origins: the highest available difficulty level was neither difficult nor challenging for experienced players - and shouldn't that be the point of the hardest difficulty?
To all complaining about so-called "cheap deaths" - that's your personal view and maybe, you simply did not grow up with the games of the past that were, for most parts, a lot more difficult and required a lot more strategy, tactics and meta-game knowledge. Hey, imagine a time without internet where you had to write everything down on your own and there was nothing like Gamefaqs telling you exactly what to do...that was core gaming as its best.
As to the "cheap" - those weren't cheap. At all. In the contrary, they were fair. Enemies could roll a critical hit and deal the same damage with a normal hero. They get a critical hit, they kill you. That's not unfair, that's the most fair design a game can get, granting your enemies the same chance as yourself.
Furthermore, you knew what you were getting. You knew that you could get ambushed at night and you knew that your enemies could easily land a critical hit as well. Cheap? Fair. We stil lhad different difficulties of course where enemies dealt less damage, could not score critical hits, etc., but if you played by the rules, you had a very fair game that was challenging yet extremely rewarding at the same time.
I know that most players nowadays are used to very easy games, that's just how the market works right now, but there still are core gamers who want a real challenge and having one difficulty level that's really challenging for those players would be really fair. If you aren't man enough to make it - choose another difficulty!
Now, what exactly is it that makes a game challenging, or rather, what made Dragon Age so easy?
[quote]i.) Enemies did not have enough hitpoints / armor: Even on nightmare, a tank could still kill the generic enemies with a few hits and archers usually needed a single Split Shot to reduce the health of nearby enemies by 25%.[/quote]
[quote]ii.) Enemies did not deal enough damage: Tanks were almost immune to physical damage at a very early point because of the combination of high armor + shield and a high dexterity, allowing them to either dodge or block enemy damage. Even at the end of Origins, Elite mobs and higher dealt ~10 damage or less to tanks, normal enemies did not deal any damage at all. [/quote]
[quote]iii.) Enemies did not make use of their skills / did not have enough skills: Most of the time, even on Nightmare, enemies usually resorted to auto-attacking and rarely used skills against allies, sometimes even wasting their stamina on useless skills e.g. Below the Belt instead of effective ones.[/quote]
[quote]vi.) The aggro system was flawed: To sum it up, it did not work at all. A tank usually had to run in, use Taunt and he was able to maintain aggro for the rest of the fight assuming that you play it smart and do not use any cone spells. This is a very big flaw as it resulted in fights being extremely easy and no challenge at all.[/quote]
[quote]v.) Enemies did not have a (working?) priority system: Most of the time, when the enemy had casters, they used their CC to affect the first target who gets in sight and that's, you guessed it, the tank who wants to get hit anyway. Enemies did not play it smart, rogues e.g. usually did the same instead of immediately going invisible to kite mages or other targets with low armor in order to cause maximum havoc.[/quote]
[quote]vi.) Too much CC: Every class had several ways to CC the enemy and every class had at least 1 AoE CC skill - that's quite an overkill here as it allowed you to permanently keep the enemies down while you slash them without mercy.[/quote]
[quote]vii.) Too effective healing: Healing is always good yet it's a extremely difficult factor to balance - and in my opinion, healing was not balanced well. Every mage had access to 2 healing skills (only including party heal skills here, not e.g. Life Drain) and Spirit Healers got 3 more, resulting in a total of 5 healing skills. The primary heal that everyone had access to had a very low cooldown paired with very low mana cost thus allowing everyone to spam it like there was no tomorrow - and just imagine the +healing items would have actually worked
[/quote][quote]viii.) Overpowered mages: Mages were by far the best class in Dragon Age - they had everything. Lots of AoE damage, more CC than someone would have ever imagined and even healing...whew.[/quote]
[quote]ix.) Overpowered talents: Mostly Awakening where warriors get their AoE-instagib, auto crits, etc. - almost all Top 4 talents were downright overpowered.[/quote]
[quote]x.) Too predictable enemies: That's a very vital point, enemies were just too predictable! Similar to what I stated above, enemies usually auto-attacked and attacked the first target they see. Rogues go in stealth just to appear at the exact same spot, archer did not focus weak targets and worst of all: most of the time, you had the classical JRPG positioning: you and the enemies face each other and the battle begins.[/quote]
******************************************************************************************************************************
Now, what could be done to actually improve the situation (gotta be constructive at least!)?
[quote]i.) Drastically increase the enemies' armor, hitpoints and resistance, making them tougher to kill while...[/quote]
[quote]ii.) ...also making them a bigger threat by increasing their damage output both physical and magical, forcing the player to very carefully pick the targets or be devastated. [/quote]
Note: Nightmare plus took that approach and increased HP / damage by enemies...and it was awesome!
[quote]iii.) Give the enemies the same or equally strong skills as the player group and let them use them at free will. When the Mage gets stunned or disabled all the time and thus cannot heal or CC himself, you actually have to position your squad in a careful and intelligent way.[/quote]
[quote]iv.) Heavily reduce the amount of aggro gained by AoE aggro skills and increase the aggro produced by healing, magic damage and attack damage (in this order) as it will lead to a higher threat for your DDs and mages - the guys with the low armor who are most dangerous.[/quote]
[quote]v.) That's the most difficult part I guess, the AI. I can only imagine that it's incredibly hard to code a AI especially with features such a smart target choosing (weak targets first, kite targets, stun people who try to stop you from killing them etc.) so basically, it's hard to say what's actually possible or not.[/quote]
[quote]vi.) Heavily, heavily decrease CC. Limit it to 1 single-target skill for Fighters / Rogues and 1 AoE +2-3 Single Target skills for mages. Battles aren't hard when you can basically stun the entire enemy team...[/quote]
[quote]vii.) Less healing spells, all of them only available for designated healers and at least +100% cooldown while increasing aggro (see above) to weaken spam healing and encourage effective healing.[/quote]
[quote]viii.) Drastically nerf mages, making them less of an allrounder class and more of a extremely fragile class with various specializations...with a lot less CC.[/quote]
[quote]ix.) Can't say much here as it's about balance alone and that's something nobody can truly master. Then again, instagib spells / skills (especially AoE!) can easily turn out to be cheap and in the end, it all boils down to playtesting and community feedback :happy:[/quote]
[quote]x.) Have more ambushes with enemies attacking from all sides, enemies at hard to reach positions, have a squad trying to fall in your back, etc., more variation would be awesome, just having them placed right in your face gets boring after a while and makes fights very easy (especially with stuff like open door => close door => Cast Tempest / Inferno).[/quote]
Phew:o
This is not meant to be a "LOL BIOWARE THAT'S HOW YOU CODE A GAME LOL NOOBZ" thread or reply, I am in no position to give any sort of order to anyone in the team and I am fully aware of the fact that Bioware DOES know how to balance stuff (Baldur's Gate series rawr!), it's just one opinion from one guy who played Dragon Age and felt being massively unchallenged even on Nightmare.
As Chris already stated, there will never be a consensus on what "difficulty" really means yet I tried to give a short glimpse at why I think that Dragon Age was too easy and not challenging. It's one thing to say that the game was too say but it's something else when you tell people why!
So, I guess most people did not read that monster of a post anyway, but thanks to all who did!
Best regards,
Fellower of Odin
Modifié par FellowerOfOdin, 21 octobre 2010 - 11:03 .
#29
Posté 21 octobre 2010 - 11:01
Dave of Canada
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Onyx Jaguar wrote...
Games of the past were made to punish the player in order to artificially enhance the time or in the case of Arcade games (to console games) it was so that the player was to spend more money. The effect this had on most however is that they just quit playing the game.
I get punished a lot in Demon's Souls.
I love it.
#30
Posté 21 octobre 2010 - 11:03
Onyx Jaguar
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Dave of Canada wrote...
Onyx Jaguar wrote...
Games of the past were made to punish the player in order to artificially enhance the time or in the case of Arcade games (to console games) it was so that the player was to spend more money. The effect this had on most however is that they just quit playing the game.
I get punished a lot in Demon's Souls.
I love it.
The difference in Demon's Souls is that it doesn't take that long to get to places and exploring the environment can help you out.
Plus you keep your inventory and level while in somehting with a continue system you start out nerfed at the beginning of a level OR like in Ghost and Goblins you ahve to start from the beginning.
The only frustrating section I can think of in Demon's Souls was the Valley of Defilement which makes you go over great distances that you have to memorize what you face as the giants are bastards from hell.
Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 21 octobre 2010 - 11:05 .
#31
Posté 21 octobre 2010 - 11:07
Dave of Canada
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Onyx Jaguar wrote...
Plus you keep your inventory and level while in somehting with a continue system you start out nerfed at the beginning of a level OR like in Ghost and Goblins you ahve to start from the beginning.
But with a continue system, you'd eventually get good enough that you wouldn't need to continue.
Though imagine if DA:O's nightmare difficulty was as brutal as Demon's Souls, it would be difficult and add a lot of fun for the masochist in me while still being easier than Demon's Souls because you're able to save everywhere and always go shopping without fear of respawning enemies.
#32
Posté 21 octobre 2010 - 11:07
Shadow_broker
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Shadow_broker wrote...
Play Super Meat boy
THAT GAME IS INTENSE
That is so true,
Harder than ginja Gayden
Modifié par Shadow_broker, 21 octobre 2010 - 11:09 .
#33
Posté 21 octobre 2010 - 11:11
Onyx Jaguar
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Well to be honest Demon's Souls rules were harsh but the combat made sense.
Romantically its rules look harsher than Ninja Gaiden or any RPG but in reality I wouldn't call it as frustrating as Ninja Gaiden. Hell I probably died less in Demon's Souls than I did in the 2008 version of Prince of Persia.
Demon's Souls runs itself more like puzzles. Kill the Adjudicator either by attacking it from low or like I did by shooting it in the face. Actually shooting everything in the face makes things easier, except for the final boss of world 1 which only killed me once while the final boss in DA on Casual difficulty no less killed me many times because its rules weren't as apparent (especially on the 360)
Also the level design is in a way like a Metroidvania in how you unlock chunks of the level by exploring so death in Demon's Souls isn't that punishing if you get pretty far in the level as getting back to the original point isn't that difficult
**** the maneater though, glad that exploit exists
Though it took me about 12 hours to figure out Demon's Souls, however I was able to do that by walking around while trying that in Pools of Radiance or Wizardry would get me repeatedly killed.
Romantically its rules look harsher than Ninja Gaiden or any RPG but in reality I wouldn't call it as frustrating as Ninja Gaiden. Hell I probably died less in Demon's Souls than I did in the 2008 version of Prince of Persia.
Demon's Souls runs itself more like puzzles. Kill the Adjudicator either by attacking it from low or like I did by shooting it in the face. Actually shooting everything in the face makes things easier, except for the final boss of world 1 which only killed me once while the final boss in DA on Casual difficulty no less killed me many times because its rules weren't as apparent (especially on the 360)
Also the level design is in a way like a Metroidvania in how you unlock chunks of the level by exploring so death in Demon's Souls isn't that punishing if you get pretty far in the level as getting back to the original point isn't that difficult
**** the maneater though, glad that exploit exists
Though it took me about 12 hours to figure out Demon's Souls, however I was able to do that by walking around while trying that in Pools of Radiance or Wizardry would get me repeatedly killed.
Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 21 octobre 2010 - 11:17 .
#34
Posté 21 octobre 2010 - 11:20
Tiax Rules All
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Baldur's Gate, was the best and anybody who doesn't like how they did combat/encounters/healing/ well everything isn't a fan of real rpg's.
Yes I get that the kiddies never want to see a "you died" or "game over" screen but Baldur's gate was alot more free roaming and had alot more legendary and super high level beasts/baddies
It was easy to stumble onto the red dragons lair WAAY before it was your time to face him. He even laughs at you and gives you the chance to walk away. If you were noobish enough to attack him unprepared he kicked your low level ass. AS IT SHOULD BE.
None of the baddies in BG were cheating or "fake challanging" they could be just as powerful if not more then you. So if you could annihilate hordes of baddies then who's to say SOMEBODY out there doesn't have that kind of power too.
When you walk along and kill everything with no real chance of dying then thier is no consequence, just fight everything, kill everybody, thats the fakeness, false sense of heroics.
Its like laser tag (new RPGs) vs Paintball (old Rpg's) I think this can be applied to how feel about combat in RPGs :
Laser tag everybody runs around spraying and getting hit but nobody really cares either way. sure it can be fun but I don't feel very competative or motivated to try especially hard.
Paintball hurt. they will leave a welt/bruise and possibly break skin. When you get hit you are out for the rest of the game. Now my heart beat races my muscles are trained and senses hightened when i play. The fear of getting shot and losing is more intense when there is real consequence. You wont run around wrecklessly, you plan your moves carefully. You try harder, work harder and when you get the other guy you feel a much greater sense of acomplishment and satisfaction.
Yes I get that the kiddies never want to see a "you died" or "game over" screen but Baldur's gate was alot more free roaming and had alot more legendary and super high level beasts/baddies
It was easy to stumble onto the red dragons lair WAAY before it was your time to face him. He even laughs at you and gives you the chance to walk away. If you were noobish enough to attack him unprepared he kicked your low level ass. AS IT SHOULD BE.
None of the baddies in BG were cheating or "fake challanging" they could be just as powerful if not more then you. So if you could annihilate hordes of baddies then who's to say SOMEBODY out there doesn't have that kind of power too.
When you walk along and kill everything with no real chance of dying then thier is no consequence, just fight everything, kill everybody, thats the fakeness, false sense of heroics.
Its like laser tag (new RPGs) vs Paintball (old Rpg's) I think this can be applied to how feel about combat in RPGs :
Laser tag everybody runs around spraying and getting hit but nobody really cares either way. sure it can be fun but I don't feel very competative or motivated to try especially hard.
Paintball hurt. they will leave a welt/bruise and possibly break skin. When you get hit you are out for the rest of the game. Now my heart beat races my muscles are trained and senses hightened when i play. The fear of getting shot and losing is more intense when there is real consequence. You wont run around wrecklessly, you plan your moves carefully. You try harder, work harder and when you get the other guy you feel a much greater sense of acomplishment and satisfaction.
#35
Posté 21 octobre 2010 - 11:32
Bobad
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Tiax Rules All wrote...
Its like laser tag (new RPGs) vs Paintball (old Rpg's) I think this can be applied to how feel about combat in RPGs :
Laser tag everybody runs around spraying and getting hit but nobody really cares either way. sure it can be fun but I don't feel very competative or motivated to try especially hard.
Paintball hurt. they will leave a welt/bruise and possibly break skin. When you get hit you are out for the rest of the game. Now my heart beat races my muscles are trained and senses hightened when i play. The fear of getting shot and losing is more intense when there is real consequence.
I don't know about this, everyone at my local LaserQuest took it particularly seriously that one time I added a bayonet to the gun.
#36
Posté 21 octobre 2010 - 11:36
Wicked 702
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Tiax Rules All wrote...
*snip*
Amen brother. I don't mind having multiple difficulties, in fact I applaud the idea. But the difference between each step on the ladder needs to be more pronounced, especially considering Bioware's past accomplishments.
And while I never really got into paintball, I do love me some Airsoft. And no, it's not soft at all. OUCH!
#37
Posté 21 octobre 2010 - 11:36
Lord_Valandil
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Edited.
Modifié par Lord_Valandil, 21 octobre 2010 - 11:37 .
#38
Posté 21 octobre 2010 - 11:39
Dhanik
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It's incredibly hard for a game to be easier than one where you can pause and plan at will.
#39
Posté 21 octobre 2010 - 11:49
Ryzaki
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Chris Priestly wrote...
Once everyone comes to an agreement on what is or is not difficult*, we will adjust our game design accordingly. Until then, we will continue to put it differing levels of difficulty to let players adjust the difficulty as they see fit.
* I expect this to happen right after everyone agrees on what the best pizza topping is.
The best topping is obviously sausage. :innocent:
#40
Posté 21 octobre 2010 - 11:55
aaniadyen
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Chris Priestly wrote...
Once everyone comes to an agreement on what is or is not difficult*, we will adjust our game design accordingly. Until then, we will continue to put it differing levels of difficulty to let players adjust the difficulty as they see fit.
* I expect this to happen right after everyone agrees on what the best pizza topping is.
Cheese, that or tomato sause.
Modifié par aaniadyen, 21 octobre 2010 - 11:56 .
#41
Posté 22 octobre 2010 - 12:22
emontyj
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I havn't logged in since I beat it on nightmare twice. Once with archer and healing pots, morrigan healing. Once with a mage healer and no healing pots.
I'm logging in to request something if i'm going to buy the game:
Easy should be carebear, walkthrough with no strategic combat, story & puzzle game.
Nightmare should be impossible to win, stupidly self-punishing, deaths every battle, load&save every 5 seconds of combat whether your spell resisted or hit, load&save every swing the opponent makes so that you force chance that your enemy misses 20 swings in a row, so that you can complete the game. That's how hard nightmare should be.
I'm logging in to request something if i'm going to buy the game:
Easy should be carebear, walkthrough with no strategic combat, story & puzzle game.
Nightmare should be impossible to win, stupidly self-punishing, deaths every battle, load&save every 5 seconds of combat whether your spell resisted or hit, load&save every swing the opponent makes so that you force chance that your enemy misses 20 swings in a row, so that you can complete the game. That's how hard nightmare should be.
#42
Posté 22 octobre 2010 - 12:24
Lord_Valandil
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Some on this thread are authentic masochistic people XD
So, I don't see the problem if BW gives 'em an impossible Nightmare Difficulty. I'm fine with that, I'll just play on normal/hard.
So, I don't see the problem if BW gives 'em an impossible Nightmare Difficulty. I'm fine with that, I'll just play on normal/hard.
#43
Posté 22 octobre 2010 - 12:39
Lumikki
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Problem with challenge is that players ask challenge, but want to be superman while have that challenge. Meaning level based game is just scaling content vs characters abilities do content. So, most easyest way to provide the challenge is just weaken player characters and make enemies stronger. Now what players want is more like tactical based challenge, but problem here is, all tactics can allways solved and then it's not challenge anymore.
I usually play my first playtrough in "normal" difficulty in Biowares games. Then I usually change it to "hardcore", because Biowares games are little too easy usually. But I don't go above that in difficulty. Mostly because the gameplay comes really bad. I mean how weak player character comes and how strong the enemies will come is totally unrealistic. Meaning the gameplay isn't anymore about story or having fun, it's about people been masochistic as banging they head to walls, to brove them self that they can do it. I don't need to prove that I can do something, I know I can do it, it's just question why to do something so booring at all, when hole point of playing games is have fun and enjoy the good story and gameplay.
I don't mind if they make nightmare difficulty 100 times harder, because I have no use for so unrealistic gameplay.
I usually play my first playtrough in "normal" difficulty in Biowares games. Then I usually change it to "hardcore", because Biowares games are little too easy usually. But I don't go above that in difficulty. Mostly because the gameplay comes really bad. I mean how weak player character comes and how strong the enemies will come is totally unrealistic. Meaning the gameplay isn't anymore about story or having fun, it's about people been masochistic as banging they head to walls, to brove them self that they can do it. I don't need to prove that I can do something, I know I can do it, it's just question why to do something so booring at all, when hole point of playing games is have fun and enjoy the good story and gameplay.
I don't mind if they make nightmare difficulty 100 times harder, because I have no use for so unrealistic gameplay.
Modifié par Lumikki, 22 octobre 2010 - 12:55 .
#44
Posté 22 octobre 2010 - 12:45
mopotter
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Lord_Valandil wrote...
Hmmm...
I don't want impossible games, like Ninja Gaiden. I don't have too much time to play, and being killed again and again just irritates me.
I understand your point, but...those who want a challenge, play it on Nightmare.
This.
I want a game I can play an hour before going to work and not die 10 times before getting to the first town. I won't keep or play a game that does this. I've bought a game, played it for an hour and taken it back because it didn't have any other setting and I got fed up with dieing.
I am a dedicated gamer, who will get up 2 hours before going to work so I can play and then come home and play for another 4 hours before going to bed, or play from 8 am till 10 pm if my husband has gone fishing or hunting, but I hate games that make me feel like I'm wasting my time.
I like that BioWare games go from casual to nightmare. With 2 other choices in between and some days I may even play on the harder setting, but I want to decide how much work I have to put in on the game and if I'm playing on a harder setting but need to turn it down for a fight, I'll do it with no shame.
Yes BioWare, you let me play at my own pace and I appreciate that.
#45
Posté 22 octobre 2010 - 12:54
Ortaya Alevli
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I understand there are many more important aspects of a RPG than combat, but that doesn't mean combat should never pose a challenge. It's a shame when the game provides you with so many cool spells and talents yet never an opportunity to put them to good use. Most battles are over before you get a chance to warm up; they don't force you to make clever use of tools at your disposal. In Origins I personally view traps/bombs/poisons/salves as vendor trash. Even potions, after you gain access to healing spells.
Crippling your characters isn't a good solution. The problem here is lack of opportunities to take advantage of your utilities. Giving them up doesn't solve the problem. A better solution might be to equip the enemies with special techniques and tactical advantage. Scenarios to emphasize the importance of traps and stealth, for example. Elemental damage to force you to resort to appropriate protection measures. Stuff like that.
Crippling your characters isn't a good solution. The problem here is lack of opportunities to take advantage of your utilities. Giving them up doesn't solve the problem. A better solution might be to equip the enemies with special techniques and tactical advantage. Scenarios to emphasize the importance of traps and stealth, for example. Elemental damage to force you to resort to appropriate protection measures. Stuff like that.
#46
Posté 22 octobre 2010 - 12:54
Delta.Echo
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Tiax Rules All wrote...
Laser tag everybody runs around spraying and getting hit but nobody really cares either way. sure it can be fun but I don't feel very competative or motivated to try especially hard.
Paintball hurt. they will leave a welt/bruise and possibly break skin. When you get hit you are out for the rest of the game. Now my heart beat races my muscles are trained and senses hightened when i play. The fear of getting shot and losing is more intense when there is real consequence. You wont run around wrecklessly, you plan your moves carefully. You try harder, work harder and when you get the other guy you feel a much greater sense of acomplishment and satisfaction.
So this means the new hardness levels will be called:
Squirt Guns = Casual
Laser Tag = Normal
Paintball = Hard
Gunfight = Nightmare
#47
Guest_slimgrin_*
Posté 22 octobre 2010 - 12:54
Guest_slimgrin_*
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Bioware got it right with ME2. If they can replicate those difficulty levels for DA2, everyone should be happy.
#48
Posté 22 octobre 2010 - 12:55
mopotter
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Lord_Valandil wrote...
I don't understand why people keep saying that the games in the past were far more difficult, blahblah, like if they were a 60 year old grandpa.
Yeah, of course they were more difficult, I had a NES and never finished a game...because everytime I died, the game returned to the title screen. But they were also simpler, didn't have options to save the game, among many other things...
Those times have passed. It's time to move on.
I guess you can never make everyone happy.
I think I played this game. I remember you couldn't save it and every time I died I had to start from the beginning. I pretty much hated it. Can't remember what it was, just the frustration and the vow never to buy games I can't save when I want to save. I am so glad those times have passed.
#49
Posté 22 octobre 2010 - 12:58
Tiax Rules All
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slimgrin wrote...
Bioware got it right with ME2. If they can replicate those difficulty levels for DA2, everyone should be happy.
ME2 was the easiest game I've played in years.... on insanity
#50
Posté 22 octobre 2010 - 12:59
mopotter
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FellowerOfOdin wrote...
Chris Priestly wrote...
Once everyone comes to an agreement on what is or is not difficult*, we will adjust our game design accordingly. Until then, we will continue to put it differing levels of difficulty to let players adjust the difficulty as they see fit.
I think we can go with "Cheese" here!
No Pepperoni.
