164 réponses à ce sujet

[Blakes 7]

The main takeaway for me from this discussion is that people want games that are challenging, but not annoying challenging from poor game design. They want games that offer intelligent scaling of difficulty through better tactical decision making from enemies (not like in civ where the ai just get more bonuses than you.) But more than that people want to have fun even when failing an objective.
You know what surprises me? That this obvious stuff is never grasped by people that make games. I blame their limited budgets and an over-reliance on traditional game designs over experimental ones. But its the publishers whip and tight deadlines for the real reason for lack of challenge old gamers experience. Need for profits produces no risk game design and marketability needs mean your game has to be a recognisable genre so that people pick it up.
Not only are gamers playing games that are easier than what they learnt under, but they are doing that with no new challenges brought about by game design. Familiarity breeds contempt or boredom  - your pick. But yeah look - pretty graphics!

[mopotter]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...
Yeah, well, don't start with your PC elitist crap, will ya?

I wasn't talking about how PC's have better graphics or how pc games allow for more content and longer games or how consols are bring the accepted quality of video games down across the board. Wasn't talking about any of that.

Just stated that mouse and keyboard are faster and more responsive then joysticks. which is acually true.

Not for everyone and I think games should be available for everyone on any platform.  I have the same games on my pc as I have for my xbox/xbox360.  I want to be able to play them while my husband watches tv and I want to play them alone.  

Personally the only thing I like my pc for are mods and I can hit pause  to  figure out what I want to do in a fight which is harder for me to do or I cannot do with most of my xbox versions.. I've played games on a harder level on the pc just because I can do this.  Other than that, no difference in my game playing.  

[mopotter]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

As for the cost thing, how long do consoles last between generations?

You know...the 360 is almost five years old, and it doesn't look like it'll die soon (with so many great games coming out next year). So, it's not the same. And still, a console is cheaper than a powerful PC.
As for the mouse, yup, it's better for aiming, but the WASD...I don't like it. I hate to play with a Keyboard. The stick feels better for movement, in my opinion.

 My  1st pc lasted 4 years and my 2nd one lasted 5.  I'm on my 3rd pc.  I can't afford the really wonderful gaming pc so  I get the less expensive $600 one.  i originally got pc because of the games and then got the xbox which still works, got the super nes, saga, and now xbox360 and the weii.   

I really prefer games that have different  difficulty levels and don't see why all of them don't.  Make the hardest so no one can win.  make the easiest so that beginners can win.  I'll play on normal or maybe the next one up.    

[Lord Gremlin]

I say - a variety of difficulty settings solves the problem. Easy is supposed to be really very easy and not challenging at all, normal is supposed to be balanced, and nightmare is expected to be insanely hard. And no difficulty related trophies please. No need to force us to play on 1 difficulty.



OP Mass Effect part is invalid - Mass Effect is a shooter, you're supposed to be able to solo any group of enemies, it all depends on skill.

[mopotter]

Suprez30 wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...
not to mention the boss battles blatently copying the simplest mmo epic encounter formulas. All the difficulty setting does is increase the boredom factor.

Please elaborate. How do they copy MMO formula? I don't play them so I don't know.

So far, I've loved the boss battles in DA, but your right in that encounters are scripted. The same for every playthrough. It would be nice to mix this up with randomized events.

It's basicly just mash your most powerful abilities until it's drop.
I'm playing FFIX right now and you know what .. Without a guide to help me .. I would have never defeated some boss. lol.

Oh i can't be level 35?
Oh i need to use this?
Oh i can't do that?
Oh that monster give that to beat that monster?
Oh it's dangerous here without that spell?
Oh
Oh


In origin it's MASH MASH MASH
DEAD

Video game today  feel more like you're watching a movie rather than playing a video game and figuring stuff by yourself to progress.

But it's seem that what today  gamer want . They want to complete  the game in the same day and purchase DLC to increase the longevity of it.

i miss old time.When game was actually game.

OK.  I actually like the fighting in da.  I have tried some games where you go xyx xxx yxx  but didn't care for them.   

But I do agree about watching a movie.  I didn't mind it in ME but I could have done with a little less in DA:O, or like someone else said, mix the finishing scene so that it's different once in awhile.   I tried Resident evil 5 once and didn't last very long becuase there were soooo many cut scenes I lost track of what I was supposed to be doing.

I have tried a lot of different types of games and now I only buy ones I am pretty sure I'll enjoy.  Sometimes I'm wrong.  I'm picky.  I don't like shooters and I don't like MMO's.  I like games in the style of Morrowind, Diablo, Oblivion, Fallout 3, all of BioWare games and even a couple of the FF games, but I can't say I miss more than maybe 4 of the old games.  Crono Trigger which I think was the first to give me more than one ending would be at the top of my miss this game list.  

[mopotter]

Dave of Canada wrote...

TimelordDC wrote...

...and it shouldn't try to do that only with health boosts. Additional talents, tactics, combat set up, etc - may be not for every one but at least the boss/mini-boss fights and some random ones so that the players are always on their toes.

Maybe it's just me but I see the highest difficulty as a challenge to people who've mastered all aspects of the game. Maybe not additional talents and ingame bonuses but at the very least a functional party with correct "speccing" and tactics.

Actually, I agree.  I always start off my games on casual and work my way up.  I'm not really interested in the nightmare setting, but I've played on hardcore a few times, after I've been playing the game for 2 or 3 years it's fun to have it a little more difficult.   

[mopotter]

bbfan13 wrote...

I am going to take the minority position here or maybe just play devil's advocate a bit but I don't necessarily thing that games are easier today than what the used to be.  Now before you call me nuts, please read my argument.

I think that every generation of games has had both easy and hard games and I have been alive for all of them.  I will cede this point.  Because of the increasing cost for high quality game development, video games today must reach a broader audience than at any time in the past.  I certainly consider Bioware to be maker of high quality games and as such I expect them to make games accessible to a broad audience.  Let's face it, Bioware released a patch for DA:O three days after it released to make the game easier.  I don't play Bioware games for difficulty, I play them for quality.  On the flip side, Demon's Souls may be my favorite "hard" game of all time.  I found it to hard but fair as opposed to much of the cheese that has been called hard in the past. 

I think there are a couple other factors at play that make games seem much easier than games in the past.  First is the heavy reliance of video game tropes has made us all collectively better game players.  I met Alistair and my first thought is "he might be my tank."  That wouldn't have been my thought in 1998.  The OP claims that BG was much harder than later games.  I went back and played BG after DA:O for a bit of nostalgia.  I didn't find it to be hard at all.  I actually thought it was a bit boring and I loved that game when it came out.

The other main thing that makes today's video games seem easy is the massive amount of information on the internet.  Walkthroughs, Bioware forums, cheat sites etc....  Fallout New Vegas came out Tuesday and there are already forums talking about best builds.  OLD FART WARNING...When I was a kid all we had a magazine that came out once a month that had a couple of hints.  I was so proud when my name was listed as having the highest score in the land on Colecovision's Lady Bug game.  But that was all we had.  The next month my score was destroyed.  END WARNING.     My first time through DA:O I created a balanced character and found the difficulty to be appropriate.  After getting on these forums I found out that if you max dex you can't even get hit.  Suddenly the game became stupid easy.   

Just an different point of view.  Sorry for the wall of text. 

Agree with you.  Plus we are all forgetting one other thing that would make current games easier than older one.  We've grown up.  Maybe it's just me, but I would think that playing games for a number of years would make at least some of them a little easier than when one first started playing and was learning the tricks of the trade so to speak.  

And, yes, I also went back and replayed BG a few years ago, didn't finish it.  I loved it when it first came out, but now I'd rather go back and play KOTOR.  

[Joshd21]

Let me guess you are complaining that video games are too easy? Yes back then in the 90's you only had three lifes to live. You also had super mario in 3d as one of the game breaking things brought to us back then..

There wasn't a PS1 even then yet. If you want a game to be truely hardcore. Then don't wear any of the gear that they give you. If everyone is 90 percent of the people are fine with the way the combat system then why change it?

There will always be people that say it's too easy. But if you change the combat system to make it so hardcore that anytime you die you are brought back to stage 1. And the features on it so hard to follow without a few times of pratice then you will make the entire storyline boring all over trying to improve the combat system.

Just a FYI I thought the combat system was fine in Dragon Age Orgins. Yes the big 3D feature is cool but I saw blood and gore and ripping off a guys head with a single shot. Who could ask more of a video game. The fact they are looking at it and say we can make it even better..

Now people want storyline, moral choices. That is what Bioware is famous for creating. They made a game star wars of old republic not the MMO one. Interesting even though the graphics were a little dull all over the storyline and moral choices and twists.

We like to be in a game where it's like a novel and we are not a nameless NPC. We are in the star role and whatever happens or choices we make the world is affected by it. That our storyline has a special ending for us. I much rather accept that then some combat system designed to make things more harder..

want harder..don't spend any talent points and fight without potions..now go be hardcore

[Alyze]

I think it would be easier for the most of you if little 14-years-old boys won´t play all these games and then run to the publisher and cry cause they can´t solve the first boss.

But they won´t sell much games then, wouldn´t they? 

[ErichHartmann]

Thinking back, BG wasn't that hard for me. It took longer than DAO to figure out my ideal character build but after that it was really easy. It's all relative I guess. The "hardest" games I have ever played relied heavily on cheese factors. 1 hit kills, limited lives, extremely cheap bosses with a million hit points, and random deaths out of no where. Now I'm more interested in playing an RPG for the story over gameplay so I don't crave insane challenges as much.



Baldur's Gate II will always be my favorite though. The fights were a lot of fun with a higher level of strategy/tactics involved.

[ashwind]

Chris Priestly wrote...

Once everyone comes to an agreement on what is or is not difficult*, we will adjust our game design accordingly. Until then, we will continue to put it differing levels of difficulty to let players adjust the difficulty as they see fit.


* I expect this to happen right after everyone agrees on what the best pizza topping is.

You're nuts, the best pizza topping is and has always been Extra Cheese + Pepperoni. Everyone agrees on that. 
<_<

Anyone who does not agree can be fed to Darkspawns

[Dave of Canada]

ErichHartmann wrote...

Now I'm more interested in playing an RPG for the story over gameplay so I don't crave insane challenges as much.

I like a mix of both, personally. I want to have it so when a character says "THE BATTLE IS HARD" or something, I should be agreeing with him / her. I feel a lot more satisfaction defeating a legion of whatever and hear the victory yells in the backround when I wasn't sitting there pressing one button.

[Ulous]

Alyze wrote...

I think it would be easier for the most of you if little 14-years-old boys won´t play all these games and then run to the publisher and cry cause they can´t solve the first boss.

But they won´t sell much games then, wouldn´t they? 

Well DAO is an 18+ game and to be honest I can't see kids screaming at their parents to buy it for them in the same way they do with say Grand Theft Auto.

[Sylvius the Mad]

mopotter wrote...

My  1st pc lasted 4 years and my 2nd one lasted 5.

Gaming PCs can last for quite a while.

The one I'm using now I acquired in 2008, but the one before that I acquired in 2004.  I never made any upgrades to that 2004 machine - I just kept using it until it was no longer adequate (I actually bought the 2008 machine to play ME).

[SirOccam]

ashwind wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

Once everyone comes to an agreement on what is or is not difficult*, we will adjust our game design accordingly. Until then, we will continue to put it differing levels of difficulty to let players adjust the difficulty as they see fit.


* I expect this to happen right after everyone agrees on what the best pizza topping is.

You're nuts, the best pizza topping is and has always been Extra Cheese + Pepperoni. Everyone agrees on that. 
<_<

Anyone who does not agree can be fed to Darkspawns

Sad to see, really. Someone so led astray by the pepperoni traditionalists at such an apparently young age that now even you have come to see it as truth. Do not believe the lies. Hawaiian pizza with extra sauce ftw.

[Patriciachr34]

I must say that I really had no interest in playing games that only allowed 3-5 lives.  I don't want to spend 40 hours playing a game only to have to start over because I haven't been able to figure out that one boss strategy in 3 lives.  <_<

Part of the fun of the game (a lot of it in fact) is the story. Constant battles and surprise attacks could detract from the story continuity, kind of like the phone ringing when you're watching a movie.  Plus, this isn't a game that focuses on combat.  It's a game that focuses on story.  So constant battle simply does not make sense.

If you want to add difficulty to some of the bosses.  Fine.  I can live with that and will enjoy developing new strategies to defeat them.  But do not change the fundamentals of a game that is currently so well balanced.

[Dave of Canada]

Hey everybody, let's play Dragon Age: Battletoads.

[Patriciachr34]

I get Battletoad 1 a.k.a. "The Destroyer!" He can snap the spine of an opponent with his super strong tongue.

[KJandrew]

i honestly don't play RPG's for the game play i just want a good story and atmosphere. if i wanted a hard game i'd go over to my mate's house and play demons souls on his ps3. The game doesn't even have a pause menu.

[SirOccam]

KJandrew wrote...

i honestly don't play RPG's for the game play i just want a good story and atmosphere.

Same here. Whether you do a fight on the hardest difficulty or the easiest, the contribution to the story is still "you defeated that group of darkspawn," so I honestly couldn't care less how hard or easy it was. If anything, playing on hard just means fights keep me out of the story that much longer.

[Fiery Phoenix]

I never look at the difficulty when it comes to RPG's. Hell, I play on Casual 99% of the time (in both DA and ME). In other words, I play for the story and universe, not the gameplay. I can play other games if I want a gameplay challenge.

[Dave of Canada]

SirOccam wrote...

KJandrew wrote...

i honestly don't play RPG's for the game play i just want a good story and atmosphere.

Same here. Whether you do a fight on the hardest difficulty or the easiest, the contribution to the story is still "you defeated that group of darkspawn," so I honestly couldn't care less how hard or easy it was. If anything, playing on hard just means fights keep me out of the story that much longer.

I understand the reasoning but I don't understand why this logic means the hardest difficulty should be easy. If all you cared about was story and didn't mind about the difficulty, why not simply play on casual?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 22 octobre 2010 - 05:31 .

[Ulous]

At the end of the day I trust Bioware to make the right choice when it comes to the difficulty settings, if I didn't then I could always go and play another game I suppose.

[TimelordDC]

Dave of Canada wrote...

TimelordDC wrote...

...and it shouldn't try to do that only with health boosts. Additional talents, tactics, combat set up, etc - may be not for every one but at least the boss/mini-boss fights and some random ones so that the players are always on their toes.

Maybe it's just me but I see the highest difficulty as a challenge to people who've mastered all aspects of the game. Maybe not additional talents and ingame bonuses but at the very least a functional party with correct "speccing" and tactics.

I was actually referring to the monsters when I wrote that, not your own party and by additional, I mean talents of a higher tier (not just every hurlock attempting to shield-bash me).