57 réponses à ce sujet

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

So wait. Running the largest information network in the galaxy isn't a good excuse for not coming with you?

I do agree with Garrus being one of the most loyal people, he's definetly one of those people that would follow Shepard to the bitter end. Also for those who like to bring up the fact that Garrus didn't recover Shepard's body,  remember that he was busy either working for c-sec or training as a specter (that he failed is another thing).

[Lord_Caledore]

I like Garrus a lot. He's definitely one of my favorite characters. And maybe he's one of the most personally loyal to you, but why are some character's other loyalties described as a bad thing? It's a negative that Tali doesn't put Shepard before her own people? It's a bad thing that Kaidan and Ashley take their duties as Alliance soldiers seriously? If anything, it makes them more interesting characters IMO.



This isn't the first thread I've seen of this nature...for instance, there was one saying "Liara cares about Shepard the most!". Why does there have to be a contest?

[KendallX23]

Garrus is very loyal...but the way i see it he follows Shepard because he has nowhere to go and sees Shepard as a mentor of sorts...everything important for Garrus was done either with Shep approval or following in Shep's path or methods...in this time he became a friend...but he is not the only one loyal with Shepard...not like there is a contest among them

I don't like Liara much but she was the only one who went to recover Shepard's body and to see him revived(the way she does it is another thing)...that is loyalty...one could say beyond death

As for tali...yea..i guess she should had left her mission for her people to go right away...because Super Shepard said so...

as for Ashley/Kaidan...they thought Shepard was dead...and when they heard he was alive he was working for a terrorist faction...and on Horizon is not like Shepard's dialogue makes them go with him...at most they think that

a)Shepard really works with Cerberus

b)Shepard is an idiot..

And how do u know what they are doing with the Alliance...or Anderson(who believes in Reapers)...they could be prepairing..don't assume they don't care because u know nothing of what they are doing..

[Predi1988]

Everyone says that Liara was more loyal because she recovered Shepards body before the Collectors took it, But as I read the comic, it seems to me that she was the only one in the team ho knew about it. If Garrus had known that Sheps body is being a bargaining chip in the SB's game, than he would have been rushing to rescue the remains. (That stands for Ashey/Kaidan too, I think... but I'm not sure...)

[Collider]

Garrus didn't even know Shepard's body was recoverable. You can't really fault him for not chasing a ghost.

[OBakaSama]

Not sure if any of the Alliance affiliated members of Shepard's team could have helped Liara. Recall that Joker said that records were sealed, everyone was reassigned, and the stuff Shepard stirred up was swept under the carpet. Chances are they couldn't help even if they wanted to, and helping probably would have meant their leaving the Alliance. With the Virmire Survivor I don't think it's so much that they are not loyal to Shepard per se, but that after the events of ME1 that they don't understand Shepard's motivations (regardless of how Shepard is played). For me, it's this apparent lack of understanding that bugs me.



What's odd about Liara's efforts to recover Shepard's body is (at least I don't remember) how Liara found out in the first place. It's also odd that though the Collectors attacked the Normandy they were unable to capture Shepard in the immediate aftermath. If memory serves it was the Shadow Broker's people that recovered Shepard's body.



It's possible that Garrus wasn't on the Normandy at the time of the attack (only Liara of the original squad seemed have been aboard), so he would have dealt with Shepard's death separate to the others. He's also more receptive to Shepard when they meet again on Omega (regardless of whether he was recruited or not in ME1), but does express concern once he's back on the Normandy about working with Cerberus. A concern he holds if Jack dies during the journey to the Collector base in which he speaks up in opposition to Miranda's self-elected fire-team leader role.



As others have pointed out, it does seem that Garrus follows Shepard in the big things (whether he does so because he has nothing better to do I won't say, you be the judge of that). I think it was mentioned somewhere, probably the Shadow Broker's dossiers, that Garrus should probably strike out on his own away from Shepard to reach his full potential. Thing is...we've seen what happened when he did.

[rosscojohn]

These are all very good points, I don't disagree (well on some of it i do but never mind). I think the main thing for me is not what the "Original Squad's" secret motivations are / what they might know that we don't / any character back story the developers have hidden from us. Its the fact that when I meet them in ME2, their excuses for not coming leave me with the feeling of "!@#% you then, you can shove your useless excuses up your #!@*&, I don't want you to come anyway!" The only ones who have what it takes are Garrus and Tali (Garrus being the one who comes with no questions asked). It's more of the feeling their excuses leave, maybe DLC will help fix that, maybe not. At this stage for ME3 I want Garrus, Tali, Wrex, and Maybe Liara if she has a good apology / gives me some cool stuff from her Lair.

P.S.

Garrus may be a bit of a friendless nut job obsessed with murder and mayhem, but at least he is MY nut job. He is a bit like Doc Holiday, he doesn't have many friends, but he will go to hell and back to help the few he does.

Modifié par rosscojohn, 22 octobre 2010 - 09:53 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Lizardviking wrote...

So wait. Running the largest information network in the galaxy isn't a good excuse for not coming with you?

I do agree with Garrus being one of the most loyal people, he's definetly one of those people that would follow Shepard to the bitter end. Also for those who like to bring up the fact that Garrus didn't recover Shepard's body,  remember that he was busy either working for c-sec or training as a specter (that he failed is another thing).

No, it definitely is, and if by the time Shepard was revived Liara was the SB then I would totally understand.

But she isn't. She's still out for revenge and she isn't even trying for a rescue. She already thinks Feron is dead.

[lizzbee]

OBakaSama wrote...
 One point on Garrus' recruitment though, he does say (I think) he'll go with you if you get him out alive. It's not much of a stipulation given the context, but a stipulation nonetheless.

Garrus won't be much use to you dead, and I doubt Cerberus would spend billions just to bring him back to kick some Collector hiney

I don't think Garrus is the only loyal squad member, but all of my Sheps have trusted him completely to get their backs.  They wouldn't run to him for tactical advice, necessarily, but for help on any mission-- hell yes!

[Ryzaki]

Collider wrote...

Garrus didn't even know Shepard's body was recoverable. You can't really fault him for not chasing a ghost.

Should Shep have even *had* a body? He/She fell into a planet's gravitational field from what I can tell. 

...And yes it makes zero sense that the Collector's wouldn't get Shep's body as soon as possible seeing as...I don't know that's what they went there for. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 octobre 2010 - 02:25 .

[Aedan_Cousland]

It is a bit unfair (and inaccurate) to say Liara hasn't been loyal when she's the only ME1 squadmate that played a role in Shepard's resurrection.

[gadna13]

Ryzaki wrote...

Collider wrote...

Garrus didn't even know Shepard's body was recoverable. You can't really fault him for not chasing a ghost.

Should Shep have even *had* a body? He/She fell into a planet's gravitational field from what I can tell. 

...And yes it makes zero sense that the Collector's wouldn't get Shep's body as soon as possible seeing as...I don't know that's what they went there for. 

Yea that was always something that confused me. They go there specifically for Shep's body and when the Normandy explodes (while escape pods fire out the side of the thing) they assume it was a job well done.

Harbinger probably released control a little early on that one.

[Phaedon]

OK, what the hell is up with people posting facepalm gifs. Just because you prefer another character (a specific one) it doesn't give you the right to disrespect his opinion. (Which is ironic, since you have been blaming another portion of fans for that).



I personally think that Garrus is not the only loyal member of Shepard's squad, just the one that follows him blindly. And that's not necessarily good.

[GuardianAngel470]

Phaedon wrote...

OK, what the hell is up with people posting facepalm gifs. Just because you prefer another character (a specific one) it doesn't give you the right to disrespect his opinion. (Which is ironic, since you have been blaming another portion of fans for that).

I personally think that Garrus is not the only loyal member of Shepard's squad, just the one that follows him blindly. And that's not necessarily good.

There is a fine line with Garrus. Some may see it as following blindly, others may see it as knowing the stakes and wanting to make a difference and help shepard.

Both viewpoints are equally valid because they are both interpretations of the same facts.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

So wait. Running the largest information network in the galaxy isn't a good excuse for not coming with you?

I do agree with Garrus being one of the most loyal people, he's definetly one of those people that would follow Shepard to the bitter end. Also for those who like to bring up the fact that Garrus didn't recover Shepard's body,  remember that he was busy either working for c-sec or training as a specter (that he failed is another thing).

No, it definitely is, and if by the time Shepard was revived Liara was the SB then I would totally understand.

But she isn't. She's still out for revenge and she isn't even trying for a rescue. She already thinks Feron is dead.

I understand why the OP might not find Liara's reason for not joining you during Illium bad. But he said he still didn't buy Liara's reason for not joining Shepard at the end of LTOSB, which is just plain silly.

Modifié par Lizardviking, 23 octobre 2010 - 11:51 .

[OBakaSama]

It's interesting what posters have picked up on during my first post as it was mainly conditional on my memory being right. That it wasn't means it was a moot point.

Anyway....

In terms of ME2 it could be suggested that Garrus is the most loyal (personally I have no strong opinion on this). So the question is how much of the gameplay mechanics we should bring into such a discussion. For instance, reading around I discovered that all recruitment missions were supposed to be available from the beginning (I profess that I do not know if this is officially the case, so again this is conditional), but limitations meant that recruitment had to be split across two DVDs.

Let us suppose that the recruitment order can be removed, so TIM gives Shepard all the dossiers after Freedom's Progress. First gameplay mechanic we may wish to consider is whether Tali would've have joined Shepard on Freedom's Progress. I have my doubts. If she isn't recruitable at that stage then she will have a dossier which Shepard uses to find her and recruit her. But if she was recruitable on Freedom's Progress does this make her more loyal? I'll leave that for you to ponder.

No-one was aware of what happened with Garrus, and Shepard was recruiting Archangel. Garrus only questions Shepard once he's part of the squad and on the Normandy about working with Cerberus. He joins up at the first opportunity.

Now I confess when it's a matter of loyalty my thoughts are split into two categories: those from ME1 and those new in ME2. In this discussion I personally do not comment on the ME2 characters, not that they cannot be loyal but just that their relationship with Shepard is different and isn't as long. As such, this leaves the ME1 squad open to scrutiny.

The Virmire Survivor always bugged me. Yes, I also got the feeling of "What? Are you kidding me?!?" The whole Horizon episode was handled poorly for me, but I discount them as well because...they aren't a squad member in ME2.

Wrex. He could have died in ME1, so he's a gameplay mechanic option. He seems friendly enough in ME2 and everything, but again not a squad member in ME2.

Liara. Well...same reasoning essentially but she was a temporary squad member in LotSB.

As I understand it, some of the ME1 characters weren't part of the squad in ME2 is because they're supposed to be back in ME3. After all the Suicide Mission in ME2 means that if Shepard survives at least two other squad members survived. Gameplay mechanics wise there's no reason to favour Tali and Garrus' survival over any of the others. The issue, for me at least, is how well handled their absence from the squad in ME2 is handled.

In short: the thread title is "Garrus is the only loyal squad member!" While agree that he isn't the only loyal squad member, I would imagine given what has happened for Shepard Garrus has more loyalty points with him/her.

Ramble over.

[pharos_gryphon]

Garrus is a great character. He's loyal to Shepard certainly, and is one of the few true friends Shep has. There's that whole Spectre Jr. aspect to him in the first one that makes him a sort of sidekick/apprentice/bromance hybrid (which while on the topic, a same sex romance with him was a horribly missed opportunity >.<!).



That being said, in ME2, other than regarding his loyalty mission, he literally has NOTHING to talk to you about unless you're female and romancing him. Every single time you visit it's always "Can we talk later? I'm in the middle of some calibrations..." Compare that with say, Thane, who even if you're not romancing still has a TON of dialogue options and things to discuss. Granted, Garrus is a 'known quantity' I suppose so has less need of fleshing out, but I was horribly disappointed in how little he actually had to say given as how he was my favorite squad member in ME1.



Back to the topic of actual loyalty however...I don't know that you can really compete the various members against each other. Samara's oath of fealty makes her pretty damn loyal I'd say. Unable to disobey an order where Garrus certainly would if he thought it in your best interest. Tali all but worships you whether you're in a relationship with her or not unless you really muck things up, Grunt for that matter looks up to Shepard as one part father to teach him how to be an adult, and one part warchief to lead him into battle.



Everyone is different. But by and large I don't think we can really say ______ is more loyal to Shep than _______. It's all a matter of circumstances and perspective. Sides, if it really came down to a point where the story necessitated it, Bioware would most certainly find an excuse to turn whoever they needed into a traitor to suit their plotlines.

[Neria Rose]

Predi1988 wrote...

Everyone says that Liara was more loyal because she recovered Shepards body before the Collectors took it, But as I read the comic, it seems to me that she was the only one in the team ho knew about it. If Garrus had known that Sheps body is being a bargaining chip in the SB's game, than he would have been rushing to rescue the remains. (That stands for Ashey/Kaidan too, I think... but I'm not sure...)

I don't know why people keep bringing up Liara like it's something special. This obsessive 'pseudo-woman' went after the body of a Shep who treated her like ish, never took her off of the Normandy, and let her know she didn't really want her around (at least in the case of my Shep). That's not loyal. That's strange.

Modifié par Neria Rose, 23 octobre 2010 - 12:29 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Neria Rose wrote...

Predi1988 wrote...

Everyone says that Liara was more loyal because she recovered Shepards body before the Collectors took it, But as I read the comic, it seems to me that she was the only one in the team ho knew about it. If Garrus had known that Sheps body is being a bargaining chip in the SB's game, than he would have been rushing to rescue the remains. (That stands for Ashey/Kaidan too, I think... but I'm not sure...)

I don't know why people keep bringing up Liara like it's something special. This obsessive 'pseudo-woman' went after the body of a Shep who treated her like ish, never took her off of the Normandy, and let her know she didn't really want her around (at least in the case of my Shep). That's not loyal. That's strange.

To be fair. ME2 seems to make it canon that Shepard was at least decent friends with his old crew.

Aside from possibly Wrex.

[Barquiel]

Neria Rose wrote...

I don't know why people keep bringing up Liara like it's something special. This obsessive 'pseudo-woman' went after the body of a Shep who treated her like ish, never took her off of the Normandy, and let her know she didn't really want her around (at least in the case of my Shep). That's not loyal. That's strange.

Good to know!

My Shep treated Tali like garbage in ME1 (I didn't let her take the info for the Quarians for her pilgrimage,I gave Veetor to Cerberus)...and yet I was still able to recruit her and out of nowhere, she all of a sudden had feelings for Shepard.

...or Garrus! One of my Shepards didn't recruit him in ME1, but the difference in ME2 is...minimal.

I suppose the universe is full of strange aliens:?

[OBakaSama]

I'm constructing a playthrough as a Renegade xenophobic trigger-happy Shepard in ME1 at the moment, so I'll be interested how that turns out for ME2 and ME3 when that comes out.



As I understand it if Garrus wasn't recruited in ME1 there's only a change in a tiny bit of dialogue when you meet him in ME2...and that's it! In such a case Garrus' character is woefully underdeveloped. (It is this aspect that Dragon Age excels at. The interactions between characters are great, something Mass Effect could certainly do more with.) But that's the gameplay mechanics coming in much like the case of Liara. Regardless how you play your Shepard Liara will always be the one who gets Shepard's body back and hands it to Cerberus enabling Shepard's eventual resurrection.



Garrus, on the other hand, seems to pursue the path that Shepard's own alignment suggests. If I'm correct a Paragon Shepard means Garrus goes back to C-Sec and a Renegade Shepard means Garrus pursues the Spectre route. It would seem that Shepard's ideals and methods have a great impact on Garrus, seemingly more so than the other squad members.



Another gameplay mechanic point I wish to raise though: I always thought the limit of choosing two squad members to go with Shepard as a limit of the game itself rather than what would actually occur in those circumstances. Personally I would find it hard to believe that the unpicked squad members 'did nothing'. Perhaps I'm wrong on that point, but I've always seen the three characters on a mission as a game limitation rather than what actually occurred (if that makes any sense).

[pharos_gryphon]

OBakaSama wrote...

Another gameplay mechanic point I wish to raise though: I always thought the limit of choosing two squad members to go with Shepard as a limit of the game itself rather than what would actually occur in those circumstances. Personally I would find it hard to believe that the unpicked squad members 'did nothing'. Perhaps I'm wrong on that point, but I've always seen the three characters on a mission as a game limitation rather than what actually occurred (if that makes any sense).

Now THERE would be something nice to see added in ME3: a small, 2 second or so shot at the beginning of the mission showing ______ unselected character piloting the shuttle, or another using the scanners, or having them relaying a bit of intel about the situation over the com.  And, as you said, more party banter such as Dragon Age had.  Anything to make the team feel a little more cohesive and a part of events, even if they're not down on a mission as proper backup.

Back to the topic at hand however,  I think you're right in that he's the most impressionable by far of the folks.  Everyone else is more or less set in stone.  I suppose he is a bit also... no matter what you do he's still something of a vigilante... but definately less so than the others.

[aeetos21]

rosscojohn wrote....

Going back to the original point after that little rant it seem only Garrus is willing to join Shep no questions asked. Even in ME1 he just joined up. He gave up his pretty good government job in the heart of the galactic community to help me. And in ME2 he joins my suicide mission without any resistance whatsoever. Sure he might be a bit of a lunatic, always wanting to go on revenge killings, and he has a MacGyver / Renegade complex trying to go it alone on Omega, but he is loyal and really the only person I can trust that has been in all the games. And when it comes to ME3, the final chapter, I don't want some new characters, I want people I can trust and that have been in it with me from the beginning. Some new ones would be interesting but there has got to be the option of getting the original team back, that is, if you will have them back.

I disagree with this line of thinking for the most part. I agree with you on Kaidan and Ash should go stuff themselves (although is she was even remotely associated with Cerberus then her career as an Alliance marine would be over as well as any hope in redeeming her family's name). But still the reason she gave was on Horizon was BS so, agreed. And Kaidan? No excuse and even though he was one of my favorites in ME1 he's no on my you know what list.

Liara and Tali are a bit more complicated. Liara has definitely changed, and not for the better in my opinion, so would I trust her on the Normandy before or even after the SB takedown? Wiseman says no and though her services as the new SB with be invaluable I wouldn't trust her on my squad. Which brings me to my biggest problem with your post. Garrus, like Tali, wouldn't have joined if he was still working with his squad on Omega. But since things went down differently and he: was alone, in trouble, and suddenly without real purpose one fight for a noble goal was as good as any other and when his old pal Shepard showed up he jumped at the opportunity. So his story is a bit like Tali's in that if she didn't have other responsibilities - a critical mission for he people - then I believe she would've joined Shepard because a threat like the Collectors would've demanded it and she would've responded because that's the sort of character she is.

It would've been great to have Wrex along but I think BW did a superb job with Grunt (both in his backstory, character arc and development, as well as his more reckless fighting style). And as you mentioned Wrex, as leader of the krogan clans on Tchunka couldn't abandon his people. In fact if he had my respect for him would've diminished immensely. As it is I can't wait to see him reappeare in ME3 because EVERYONE knows he'll be at the head of a krogan army. I mean a chance to take on the ultimate challenge in the galaxy? No krogan would pass at that.

[mineralica]

Don't believe in either Garrus or Liara loyalty.

Garrus follows Shepard in ME1 because Shepard is hunting Saren. He listens to Shep all the game, then listen again after Dr. Saleon the same thing. During ME2 Shep found him near dead (so it's no option to him to refuse to go with Shepard), and then we found that he forgot everything my paragon char told him. It was nearly same insult as Horizon was. Later he told that Cerberus has a nice ship and we should join them before. So what I can tell about this? Garrus never was loyal - he has done and listened only what was suitable for him.

What about Liara? In the end of ME1 she found Ilos and was very glad. After destruction of Normandy he found out that Collectors are going to take Shepard's body - and told to no one. To make things clear - main Shep is Spacer (mother is XO of draednout and captain of Alliance), Anderson is Councilor, Kaidan is LI and Wrex is best-friend-forever. It causes suspects that Liara needed this body for herself. After that she abandons scientific carrier and becomes an information broker. Obvious decision, yeah. She refuses to go to save galaxy for her own revenge (do you think it was possible that Feron survived that 2 years?), uses Shepard to catch Observer, then suddenly becames Shadow Broker and refuses to go with Shepard again. Wasn't it logical to loyal Liara to join Shepard and make Feron a SB? I'm very sorry that in scene between Vasir and T'Soni (Tela called her a pure-blood) player can't choose Spectre's side and tell Liara that her suspects are insane.



So who is loyal? Depends on Shepard, of course. My personal choice - Wrex, Thane, Samara, Jack, Miranda. Not sure about VS - (s)he needs to explain many thing.