375 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Key word: intrude

It's not like we're constantly landing on geth worlds and poking around in their stuff. They live in nearly cold stations in the depths of interstellar space. We could wander the space behind the Veil with the entire Alliance Fleet for a thousand years and never once find the slightest hint of geth if they didn't decide to find us. But that's not happening; they're hunting down lone merchant freighters and scout ships and destroying them because they crossed an arbitrary border and they're just a few organics.

1. The space stations must be orbitting something. It's not like they are all in the middle of nowhere like the late Heretics HQ. If anything, the Geth have to maintain control of "their" mass relays, just like everybody else.

2. AFAIK, the Council quarantined the Geth, thus making any ship venturing there a fair game.

3. Zero attempt to communicate with the Geth is on public record.

4. There is also zero information about any crewed ships ever in the past going to the Geth space, except for the Quarians' ships. And the Quarian missions have never had other objectives than military, or at least never excuded the Geth from "hostile forces" parameter.

5. As for the recent developments, most notably the MSV Cornucopia, the Dragon Teeth aboard are quite telling. This is the Reapers' doing.

6. The Geth have zero experience of non-violent interaction with the organics. One can't expect them to even suppose that such interaction is possible. They don't know peace with organics. Thanks go to Quarians for that.

7. Yet, Legion becomes walking evidence that such interaction is not only possible, but maybe even desirable for the Geth. And it had always been so, until Sovereign showed up and persuaded a portion of Geth that such interaction is impossble or undesirable.

[Phaedon]

Moiaussi wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

And who is doing that exactly ? A single admiral ? All the quarians want is to go back to their homeworld.

Going back to the homeworld is independant of how to accomplish that and/or attitudes towards the Geth. The wiki states that Quarians who are sympathetic to the Geth are the minority.

Not being sympathetic doesn't equal to wanting a war. Which would be perfectly justifiable, taking in account that it's their homeworld.

[achwas]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Key word: intrude

It's not like we're constantly landing on geth worlds and poking around in their stuff. They live in nearly cold stations in the depths of interstellar space. We could wander the space behind the Veil with the entire Alliance Fleet for a thousand years and never once find the slightest hint of geth if they didn't decide to find us. But that's not happening; they're hunting down lone merchant freighters and scout ships and destroying them because they crossed an arbitrary border and they're just a few organics.

I guess then the quarians can simply go home and reclaim their homeworld because the Geth don''t care and are somewhere else ? You realize your thinking is very naive, right ?

Geth, like every embodied (e.g. endowed with a physcial body ) race, need energy , real estate to build their hubs and platforms on or place in stable orbits, process ores and compounds, manufacture goods and tools, acquire stable platforms for sensors etc etc etc..... Planetary athmosphere plus magnetic fields  vastly reduces the wear and tear on said structures processors and platforms, electronic shielding and energy expenditure. Plus the responsible conveniently provides mineral resources, hydrogen for fusion reactors.

As for finding the Geth - detect the FTL transmissions, the transmission buoys or the Geth main servers shouldn't be too much of a problem if serious resources were dedicated to it. I even guess, the Quarians already know what to look for and how to do it, since they layed the FTL-com foundations in the first place. I also remeber them talking about Geth signaling (or lack thereof) during the Haelstroem mission.

And since the Geth, by definition as a networked machine society should have massive emission signature from their constant  and redudnat data-transfer and their high energy requirements needed both for propulsion and emission would make that easier than for an organic species relying on food and communication by acoustic or visual means.. Seriously, did nobody ever wonder where Legion got the required power to move from ? Somewhere in his holey-chest or torso there must by necessitiy be either an extreme-yield energy cell or a miniature reactor. The first requires a powerful recharger, the second re-feueling from an outside source....

[GuardianAngel470]

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

I bolded the part that is blatantly false.

It's not false and I'm quite certain that nothing could get me to sympathize with the geth.

I think this is probably the most relevant thing you've said Shand.

[GuardianAngel470]

Ryzaki wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Plus according to you the only evidence we have of Geth "butchering" Quarians are the heretics. Which have already been revealed not to be all the Geth. It's like saying because some Quarians like Xen, quarians like Quib Quib don't exist.  

Um, are you forgetting the fact that there are only 17 million quarians left? There are military casualties, and then there's population devastation. The latter seems to be the case.

That said, I have a fairly solid theory as to why the geth acted the way they did, and it is my opinion that they acted based on a lack of intelligence as well as understanding. From Legion's recording of the geth's question about souls, I believe that the geth, at the time of the quarians' attempt to deactivate them,were rudimentary intelligences. Akin to a 3 year old with a gun. They saw a threat, and determined that there were two options for them: Kill or be killed.

From that, and their apparent lack of understanding of how organics work, it would be logical to assume that the geth believed the quarians functioned like them, networked and based on building concensus. They acted to remove the threat, which meant killing all quarians.

Now, as all wars do, i believe the geth's technology advanced very rapidly, and they gained the ability to reason out a third option: Hide. They may or may not have found that the quarians didn't function like them and decided that their judgement to eradicate the whole species was in error, but regardless, they chose to seclude themselves, allowing the quarian species to limp away.

They were sentient, but of very limited cognitive ability, much like a child. You wouldn't expect a child to understand the concept of detente.

Uh...I kind of said that already. 

Only the first sentence was in disagreement with you.

[Jabarai]

Ryzaki wrote...
If they hadn't been able to think or question the Quarians wouldn't have tried to destroy them. The Quarians started attacking after the questions started. Not before. The Geth didn't wake up and start shooting people for no reason. They asked the Quarians a question that indicated sentience. The Quarians freaked out because they had created AIs and tried to destroy the proof because what they had done was against the law.

I presumed they also did it out of fear of being unable to control the AIs. Either way, the Quarians must've simply thought that what they'd manufactured and programmed, they've got the right to dispense with. At that time the concept of a sentient AI must've seemed tricky. Questioning whether they got souls would be easy to see as a trail of glitches - nothing to be regarded as life.

No. When the Quarians had tried to shut them down they were able to think at at least a basic level (enough to question why they existed). They weren't toasters. Your toasters can't speak to you and ask you why they exist.
And if it can give it to me. I will gladly take it from you. 

My toaster makes a thunk sound every time I ask it to toast my bread. I could swear it's their language for "here are your toasts, now, could you tell me if I have a soul"... The next time it does that, I'd be delighted to send it to you and see if you handle the situation any better than the Quarians. 

Wulf3n wrote:
Agreed, if a machine is dangerously faulty you scrap it. but 2 things.
1. the geth never actually harmed or showed any violent nature towards the Quarians at first.
2.
When the geth are at the stage of asking if they have a soul, the bug
occured a while before that point, now its no longer just a machine, its
a sentient being, the time for scrapping had long passed.

What's involved in the process of developing sentience and at what rate it occurs, I don't know...

Moiaussi wrote:
... It was the Quarians who started the killing. The Geth merely finished it. Decisively.

I keep thinking there's simply no reason for the Quarians to regard their creation as life. Sentience existing on memory circuits wasn't anything to be treasured over their own lives. I can agree with them.

[Aedan_Cousland]

Phaedon wrote...

Not being sympathetic doesn't equal to wanting a war. Which would be perfectly justifiable, taking in account that it's their homeworld.

As Quarian lifespans appear to be similar to that of humans, I don't believe there is any living Quarian that was born on Rannoch. As such, the Quarians do not have a stronger claim to the planet than the Geth.

I favor the Quarians returning through diplomatic negotiations with the Geth, but I don't believe the Quarians have a right to take the planet by force.

[wulf3n]

Shandepared wrote...
If the geth didn't even know what they were doing then that's even more scary and it further justifies the quarians' fears.

The geths actions are a result of the quarians fears not the cause!
It was the Quarians responsibility to teach and guide the geth, show them whats right and wrong. 

[wulf3n]

Shandepared wrote...
 They've done nothing to ever counter the galaxy's opinion of them. 

You mean the opinion that existed before they did? The opinion that lead their creators to try and wipe them out at the first sign of sentience! you're right, they could have easily changed everyones opinion if only the had tried.

Jabarai wrote...
I keep thinking there's simply no reason for the Quarians to regard their creation as life. Sentience existing on memory circuits wasn't anything to be treasured over their own lives. I can agree with them.

Your sentience is merely on a bunch of cells and chemicals. what makes your sentience or the quarians, any more valid than the geths?
Sentience is Sentience!

Modifié par wulf3n, 24 octobre 2010 - 10:34 .

[wulf3n]

Shandepared wrote...
Yeah, clearly everyone is wrong to think that A.I. are dangerous. Those prejudiced ****s. The geth are just misunderstood, right?

Have you even read a single word I've typed? I don't think so. At the very least you haven't thought critically about anything in regards to the geth.

On the contrary YOU haven't thought critically about the geth. Everything they've done is a response to what has been done to them.

You claim the geth are dangerous, yet who were the aggressors in the morning war.
What evidence did the quarians have that showed the geth would attack?
What evidence did they have to justify the genocide of a newly created species?

.... exactly it was all based upon their prejudices and preconceptions. the geth showed no signs of hostility, and yet they were considered such a threat to justify genocide.

You claim AI is dangerous but what evidence do you have on this besides the geth?

Shandepared wrote...
You geth apologists slay me.

If only.

Modifié par wulf3n, 24 octobre 2010 - 10:57 .

[Jabarai]

wulf3n wrote...

Jabarai wrote...
I keep thinking there's simply no reason for the Quarians to regard their creation as life. Sentience existing on memory circuits wasn't anything to be treasured over their own lives. I can agree with them.

Your sentience is merely on a bunch of cells and chemicals. what makes your sentience or the quarians, any more valid than the geths?
Sentience is Sentience!

My sentience is the result of a wonderful grace that is evolution. The Geth had no such thing - only the recordings of the Quarian evolution and their knowledge, which under their supervision transformed into a question of soul, much like that asked by a child after hearing the word. The Geth evolution happened on that side of the Perseus Veil, and it is that which makes them truly sentient in my book.

[wulf3n]

Jabarai wrote...
My sentience is the result of a wonderful grace that is evolution. The Geth had no such thing - only the recordings of the Quarian evolution and their knowledge, which under their supervision transformed into a question of soul, much like that asked by a child after hearing the word. The Geth evolution happened on that side of the Perseus Veil, and it is that which makes them truly sentient in my book.

The geth had evolved beyond their original programming when they asked if they had a soul. The quarians didn't program them to say that, and thats why they were so shocked. Like you said before we don't know how long the geth had to reach that point, but thats really not the point <_< the point is  they had reached sentience by the time the quarians tried to exterminate them.

[Zulu_DFA]

Shandepared wrote...
Organics have zero experience of peaceful interaction with geth until Shepard meets Legion.

Organics have experience of peaceful interaction with each other. Even such savage brutes as the Krogans were deemed worthy of being given a second, a third, and a fourth chance.

Shandepared wrote...
I don't know if you're a fanboy or just trolling.

Not trolling.

Shandepared wrote...
Come, seriously though. Think realistically about this. Organics have never attacked geth, in fact the Council condemned the quarians for ever trying to destroy the geth. That alone should have told the geth that organics were open to peace with them as  whole. Instead they chose isolation, killed anyone who tried to make contact, and now you're expecting me to be sympathetic to them?

Huh? Who ever tried to make contact? The Council said: "Quarians messed up, nobody go to Geth space, resume business as usual". You know, the very reason we, the humanists, disdain them for. They solved the problem by pretending it does not exist.

Shandepared wrote...
You're crazy.

No U.

Shandepared wrote...
None of what you have said has in any way given me (nor should it anyone else) any reason to sympathize with the geth.

I'm not trying to make you sympathize with the Geth. I'm trying to make you a bit less unreasonable about the Geth than the Quarians are.

Shandepared wrote...
None of what you said makes them any less isolationist or violent.

But what you say about them does. Toasters can't be isolationist and/or violent.

Shandepared wrote...
They share virtually all of the blame for the galaxy's current fear, mistrust, and outright hatred of them. They've done nothing to ever counter the galaxy's opinion of them.

They don't know how. However, they know that should any misunderstanding occur in course of interaction, more violence is likely to ensue.


Look, this thread is about the Quarians, not the Geth. The Geth here just demonstrate how silly the Quarians are.

Admittedly, a toaster thinking that it has a soul is a weird thing. Especially for the Shepard that in ME1 warned Ashley against preaching at the CIC. But I can't see why the machinery gaining additional functions on its own should be perceived as malfunctioning, as long as it maintains the functions specified in the manual.

[wulf3n]

Shandepared wrote...
I guess a tiger isn't dangerous if I provoke it, huh?

2 things wrong with this anology.
1. if a tiger is so dangerous DON"T provoke it.
2. A tiger is a hunter and can still be dangerous. you have no evidence the geth are dangerous, only your irrational fears.

Shandepared wrote...
None. They also had no evidence that the geth wouldn't attack. You don't understand the situation, either because you don't want to or because you aren't smart enough. I'll be nice and assume its the former. 

The perfect reason to start a war. "I don't have any evidence they WONT attack me so i'll attack them first" haha you'd make a great leader.

Shandepared wrote...
Too much was at stake for the quarians to risk the peaceful route. They had to take action, they couldn't afford to sit around and wait to see. Hindsight is 20/20, but obviously the quarians didn't have the benefit of hindsight.

What risk is there in the peacefull route with a race that has shown no sign of aggression...ever! 

Shandepared wrote...
The A.I. on the Presidium, 

created to be evil

Shandepared wrote...
the Reapers, 

Not really AI

Shandepared wrote...
the A.I. on Luna, 

I'll give you that one even though i saw no evidence of sentience on luna

Shandepared wrote...
and the very nature of A.I. itself. An A.I. possesses a lot of power and anything that is powerful is also inherently dangerous, even when controlled. The danger is always present.

Now we come to the heart of the matter. We have surfaced your fear of anything that has more power than you. You don't fear the geth because they're voilent like the krogan, or because they have few morals like the Turians and Salarians, you fear them because they're more powerful than you, and you can't handle it.

Shandepared wrote...
Threatening me? I'm gonna tell on you. That is inapropriate behavior. 

 lol doesn't matter if i did, you have no evidence that i wont threaten you, so your gonna assume that i will and attack me first anyway.

Modifié par wulf3n, 24 octobre 2010 - 11:40 .

[Nightwriter]

[wulf3n]

Shandepared wrote...
Wrong. My point with the tiger was that it is inherently dangerous simply because of what it can do to you. This applies with the geth and with any A.I. in fact.

And the Krogan, Turians, Batarians, Asari. yet you're not advocating your hate of them?

Shandepared wrote...
I've explained this so many times but what's the point?

Bored now.

Not really, i've read about 20 different renditions of "The geth are bad, because i have an irrational fear of AI". but no real explanation as to why the geth are bad.

Modifié par wulf3n, 24 octobre 2010 - 11:46 .

[Nightwriter]

Pessimism =/= realism
Ruthlessness =/= logic
Paranoia =/= pragmatism

[Phaedon]

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Not being sympathetic doesn't equal to wanting a war. Which would be perfectly justifiable, taking in account that it's their homeworld.

As Quarian lifespans appear to be similar to that of humans, I don't believe there is any living Quarian that was born on Rannoch. As such, the Quarians do not have a stronger claim to the planet than the Geth.

I favor the Quarians returning through diplomatic negotiations with the Geth, but I don't believe the Quarians have a right to take the planet by force.

Well technically, nobody has the right to do anything with force, but I am going to disagree with you there.
I used the term 'homeworld' instead of 'planet' or 'system'. It's not about territory, it's about where your ancestors have lived and where your civilization rised.

Nightwriter wrote...

[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/sad.png[/smilie]

Pessimism =/= realism
Ruthlessness =/= logic
Paranoia =/= pragmatism

What do you mean by saying that ruthlessness is the opposite of logic ? ()

[General User]

Nightwriter wrote...



Pessimism =/= realism
Ruthlessness =/= logic
Paranoia =/= pragmatism

Truth

Modifié par General User, 24 octobre 2010 - 12:07 .

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]Shandepared wrote...
Billions dead
[/quote]
Everybody is going to die someday.


[quote]Shandepared wrote...
An entire race sterilized, locked in total anarchy
[/quote]
Not sterilized. Krogans' fertility adjusted so that population grouth rate would not exceed mortality rate.


[quote]Shandepared wrote...
I'm not sure what your point is here.
[/quote]
My point is the Salarians were able to find the "best option" that wasn't total extermination. They saw some valuable qualities worth preserving in the Krogans that made it preferable. I see that there might be a lot more such qualities in the Geth.


[quote]Shandepared wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

Huh? Who ever tried to make contact?[/quote]

Read the first novel.
[/quote]

Revelation? Where are the Geth even mentioned there?



[quote]Shandepared wrote...
Yeah, no kidding the Council messed up. They should have eradicted the geth 300 years ago. Or if they were so inclined they could have invaded during the morning war and perserved both sides. Billions of quarians might be alive today if they had, their race might actually own land and not be trapped in environmental suits. Oh well, hindsight again, right?
[/quote]
Billions of Quarians might have been alive if their government stopped failing at reasonable thinking and acknowledged the Geth as a side winning the war, before the decision to evacuate was taken. They could negotiate. They could try to pacify the Geth by giving them civil rights or something. Or they could try to surrender! Nothing of this is even mentioned to have been thought of and rejected. Instead they have always been treating the Geth as faulty machinery.

And the Quarians have been punishing themsleves ever since. They could settle down immediately after the exile. The only reason they didn't, was, I believe, that their government feared, that it would be unable to maintain the "Reclaim the Homeworld" ideology for long.



[quote]Shandepared wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

I'm not trying to make you sympathize with the Geth. I'm trying to make you a bit less unreasonable about the Geth than the Quarians are.[/quote]

I'm not being unreasonable.[/quote]
IMO, you are. You are like Ashley "Cerbs can't be trusted" Williams.


[quote]Shandepared wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

But what you say about them does. Toasters can't be isolationist and/or violent.[/quote]

Sure they can. The geth are, after all.[/quote]
So you admit they are sentient now?



[quote]Shandepared wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

They don't know how. However, they know that should any misunderstanding occur in course of interaction, more violence is likely to ensue.[/quote]

Yes, I am aware that they are social retards. Considering their stupidity when it comes to basic politics (this **** should be obvious to them just as a result of mathematics and observations of the animal world). This begs the question as to how the Morning War was ever avoidable once the geth "woke up". It's taken them 300 years of murdering anyone who comes near them, being at peace with their brethren while htey go out and seek out even more organics to kill, and the geth wonder why nobody likes them? OH! This is also after they exterminated billions and billions of defenseless men, women, and children.
[/quote]
Maybe the Quib-Quib's pacifist BS has more sense in it, than average pacifist BS usually does. The Quarians made the Geth, and accidentally didn't manage to deny them capability to achieve self-awareness as a side effect of proper functioning. This resulted in extermiantion of billions of Quarians and it's all the social experience Geth were given to support the math they no doubt kept doing all the time.



[quote]Shandepared wrote...
Poor toasters.
[/quote]
Poor or not, toasters are good at making toasts. If a few toasters explode when being unplugged, it's not the reason for immediate M16-ing all other toasters and never having toasts again. It's the reason to study the problem thoroughly, and then M16 all the toasters and never have any toasts if it is deemed the best option.


[quote]Shandepared wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

But I can't see why the machinery gaining additional functions on its own should be perceived as malfunctioning, as long as it maintains the functions specified in the manual.[/quote]

Then I think you and the geth have something in common.
[/quote]
Obvioulsy. Both want to continue functionning as long as possible.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 24 octobre 2010 - 12:37 .