375 réponses à ce sujet

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

They're not a species, they're machines.

No matter how much you claim the geth aren't a species, it doesn't make it any more true. Mass Effect happens in the future; definitions change over time.

If some sentient creatures made of pure energy were discovered and decided to join up with the other Citadel races, they'd probably have to revise their definition of what life is and what species are again.

The codex refers to geth as a race of networked AI. If geth are a race then synthetics as a whole are probably considered a unique species in Mass Effect lore. Though race and species seem to be used interchangeably in our case.

Shandepared wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

God help us all if any of you robot sympathizers are in a position to put down a robot rebellion but refuse to do so.
Thanks for dooming us to be enslaved by the machines, jerks.

It's people like that which got humanity put in the Matrix.

You realize humanity attacked first in The Matrix, right?

[Nightwriter]

ReconTeam wrote...

They are still just machines. Self-aware or not they are just a bunch of ones and zeros in a piece of hardware.

My dear Recon, you are nothing but a biological machine with a dollop of sentience on top.

I shall now exterminate you before you become potentially dangerous.

[Inverness Moon]

ReconTeam wrote...

traitor to humanity.

Throwing around phrases like that makes what you say seem ridiculous. 

[Nightwriter]

Well, that may be a little harsh. I'd say it makes it seem like you can't be a geth opposer without being a bit of a zealot.

[Moiaussi]

Nightwriter wrote...

Boys, you are being unreasonable and maniacally paranoid, and no amount of Matrix references are going to change it.

Yeah, I've seen I, Robot, Cheese. Good movie. I liked it. Not a big fan of the Evil Robot Revolution scenario, always seems like blatant human superstition/paranoia, but that movie I liked.

Read Asimov's original short stories. They are a good read.

[ObserverStatus]

ReconTeam wrote...

God help us all if any of you robot sympathizers are in a position to put down a robot rebellion but refuse to do so.
Thanks for dooming us to be enslaved by the machines, jerks.

I prefer the term "artificial person" myself.

[atheelogos]

ReconTeam wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Boys, you are being unreasonable and maniacally paranoid, and no amount of fiction movie references are going to change it.

And your being foolishly idealistic and a traitor to humanity. Machines are machines, no matter how advanced they are. If one doesn't work properly, you repair it or scrap it. End of story.

close minded much?

[ObserverStatus]

ReconTeam wrote...
They are still just machines. Self-aware or not they are just a bunch of ones and zeros in a piece of hardware.

Robby disapproves -10

[wulf3n]

Shandepared wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

God help us all if any of you robot sympathizers are in a position to put down a robot rebellion but refuse to do so.
Thanks for dooming us to be enslaved by the machines, jerks.

It's people like that which got humanity put in the Matrix.

An interesting side note if you believe the animatrix shorts are cannon, then the fault rests on the humans. The robots offered peace, but were rejected because of human jealousy and fear, then the humans attacked, starting the war which resulted in humans becoming batteries.

All though the initial beginnings are a bit different, considering in that case the first act of aggression was committed by a robot, but they never really go into the details of why it attacked.
and the animatrix goes into a bit more depth than the whole quarian/geth incident, but utlimately it's the organics fault...again 

[Christmas Ape]

wulf3n wrote...
An interesting side note if you believe the animatrix shorts are cannon, then the fault rests on the humans. The robots offered peace, but were rejected because of human jealousy and fear, then the humans attacked, starting the war which resulted in humans becoming batteries.

All though the initial beginnings are a bit different, considering in that case the first act of aggression was committed by a robot, but they never really go into the details of why it attacked.
and the animatrix goes into a bit more depth than the whole quarian/geth incident, but utlimately it's the organics' fault...again 

It's the only way to make the conflict narratively compelling, otherwise it's just Skynet again.

[achwas]

ReconTeam wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
People see a dangerous synthetic as a machine that is malfunctioning and must be shut down.

Thats because it is a machine that is malfunctioning and must be shut down.

You obviously have some deep-rooted control issues and inferiority complexes, haven't you ?

Because by this brand of logic, you would have to "shut down" malfunctioning biotech machines, aka sick humans and also everyone diverging from a arbitrary functional "norm". Say everybody with premature balding (malfunctioning hairgrowth), freckels ( chaotic disturbance of skin pigmentation processes)  and cases of flatfoot (permanent strain on support structure and propulsion systems, caused by genetic design aberration ).....

Nevermind shortsightedness -------> "malfunction of visual sensors" or renitence -----> "malfunction of high logic brainfunctions"

Welcome to Euthanasia and the rule of the "Ubermensch"


As for the OP - while the loss of their homeworld and system is certainly painful to the Quarians, they had 300 years to get over it, build anew and seek peace or even a shared-use agreement with the Geth.

If they had the moral fibre to admit their initial mistake. And if they'd actually prefer adaption to the changed universe instead of lamentation over spilled milknd playing the "eternal victim"...
At the time of ME-2, they are a spoiled, whiny and very infantile race which constantly laments its misfortune, all of it hnme-grown and a direct repercussion of their own shortcomings.

As for Admrial Xen, I sorely regretted there not being a renegade interrupt to shoot her through the mask, on the spot, with extreme prejudice... because,  the last guy with a similar attitude I heard of was called Dr. Mengele.

Modifié par achwas, 25 octobre 2010 - 10:40 .

[Christmas Ape]

Good lord, without the National Socialists half of you people would have no arguments at all.

[achwas]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Good lord, without the National Socialists half of you people would have no arguments at all.

Who said the national socialists invented Euthanasia or the concept of "malfunctioning sentients" ?  Extermination of foreign and differing races which are in competition for valuable resources, living space or are just different is a very human trait throughout history.

Nevermind a still ongoing one, looking at Ruanda, Uganda,  the Ivory Coast, the Sudan or Liberia. Iraq and Turkey, Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia,  too, not even 30 years ago. Depending upon your ideological P.o.V. most American (north and latin) nations might be called culpable of it as well.....  Doesn't make it one iota less despicable though.

The chain of thought "They are different,  meaning they are malfunctioning and/or in error, hence they need to be protected against their own volition from themselves and/or eliminated one is a very ignorant and inferior one"

Most people readily agree on that, unless it is themselves doing the selfless protection of the "inferior" ones....

The Quarians, or at least several dominant factions,  are unwilling to acknowledge the Geth's entitlement to a peaceful co-existence, instead calling for their enslavement or genocide.
That makes them real cuddly sweethearts, right ? And of course worthy of our sympathies...



The national socialists are just the most iconic appliers of this erroneous train of though.... far less people are aware of sovjet Gulags and ideological purges, the turkish armenian genocidem the Cambodian Killing Fields, the Chinese cultural revolution or the native americans death-marched of to arid reservations...

Modifié par achwas, 25 octobre 2010 - 11:22 .

[Christmas Ape]

achwas wrote...
The chain of thought "They are different,  meaning they are malfunctioning and/or in error, hence they need to be protected egainst their own volition from themselves and/or eliminated" is a very ignorant and inferior one.

achwas said not an hour beforehand...
As for Admrial Xen, I sorely regretted there not being a renegade interrupt to shoot her through the mask, on the spot, with extreme prejudice

Modifié par Christmas Ape, 25 octobre 2010 - 11:23 .

[Nightwriter]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Good lord, without the National Socialists half of you people would have no arguments at all.

[Inquisitor Recon]

achwas wrote...
You obviously have some deep-rooted control issues and inferiority complexes, haven't you ?

Because by this brand of logic, you would have to "shut down" malfunctioning biotech machines, aka sick humans and also everyone diverging from a arbitrary functional "norm". Say everybody with premature balding (malfunctioning hairgrowth), freckels ( chaotic disturbance of skin pigmentation processes)  and cases of flatfoot (permanent strain on support structure and propulsion systems, caused by genetic design aberration ).....

Nevermind shortsightedness -------> "malfunction of visual sensors" or renitence -----> "malfunction of high logic brainfunctions"

Welcome to Euthanasia and the rule of the "Ubermensch"


As for the OP - while the loss of their homeworld and system is certainly painful to the Quarians, they had 300 years to get over it, build anew and seek peace or even a shared-use agreement with the Geth.

If they had the moral fibre to admit their initial mistake. And if they'd actually prefer adaption to the changed universe instead of lamentation over spilled milknd playing the "eternal victim"...
At the time of ME-2, they are a spoiled, whiny and very infantile race which constantly laments its misfortune, all of it hnme-grown and a direct repercussion of their own shortcomings.

As for Admrial Xen, I sorely regretted there not being a renegade interrupt to shoot her through the mask, on the spot, with extreme prejudice... because,  the last guy with a similar attitude I heard of was called Dr. Mengele.

Excuse me? Why I didn't know we were all amateur psychologists now. I don't think it is that outrageous to expect a machine to serve it's purpose. Controlling? Why you good sir are enslaving your computer so you can use it as a tool! So why don't you liberate your computer on the chance that it will become self-aware?

I don't consider humans or organic life "machines" in the sense that something designed by an engineer to serve man is, nor do I see a reason to. The geth were nothing but robots designed to serve the quarians, when they went beyond their parameters, it was clear the design was flawed, and must be fixed. Yet due to the legendary quarian incompetence, they not only failed but got kicked off their own planet. Hundreds of years later I see no reason why other species in the galaxy should treat the quarians problem like they would a sentient, organic species. They are something to be contained and hopefully eliminated, but since the quarians have little more than a ra

But I look foward to me being compared to a certain German political movement for expecting a piece of hardware to do it's job.

Modifié par ReconTeam, 25 octobre 2010 - 12:58 .

[Xilizhra]

Said hardware has evolved past its original parameters. It's no longer simply hardware.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Xilizhra wrote...
Said hardware has evolved past its original parameters. It's no longer simply hardware.

Yep, it's broken hardware. Hence the need for a redesign.
Honestly the rest of the galaxy has no problem destroying the geth, are they are a bunch of terrible people too?

[Xilizhra]

As much so as you, yes. Of course, I would hesitate to call ignorance "horrible."

[achwas]

ReconTeam wrote...

Excuse me? Why I didn't know we were all amateur psychologists now. I don't think it is that outrageous to expect a machine to serve it's purpose. Controlling? Why you good sir are enslaving your computer so you can use it as a tool! So why don't you liberate your computer on the chance that it will become self-aware?

The moment my computer passes the Turing test for sentience, I will defintely stop seeing it as an object and property, believe me. The Geth passed that test with flying colours 300+ years ago and still do.They actually appear to have surpassed their creators in several departments of sentient development by the time of ME-1 and ME-2

Hence , it is not a hypothetical chance the Geth may become sentient - they achieved that back when humans had not even recognised the concept of Evolution .


And whatever form sentience takes, whether biological, metaphysical or sillicate-based, it will still be sentience.

Because otherwise if one's life ( and thereby viability of sentience ) is only sustainable and achieved through intervention of machines due to medical failure of the biological body, it  would logically mean that you have actually become an "mere machine" simply by depending upon .. say an artificial heart, non organic component of you ? Or a dialytic filtering machine ?

[Nightwriter]

ReconTeam wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Said hardware has evolved past its original parameters. It's no longer simply hardware.

Yep, it's broken hardware. Hence the need for a redesign.
Honestly the rest of the galaxy has no problem destroying the geth, are they are a bunch of terrible people too?

They are not privy to the same knowledge as you. They have only been exposed to heretic geth.

So no, they are not as terrible.

[Inquisitor Recon]

achwas wrote...
The moment my computer passes the Turing test for sentience, I will defintely stop seeing it as an object and property, believe me. The Geth passed that test with flying colours 300+ years ago and still do.They actually appear to have surpassed their creators in several departments of sentient development by the time of ME-1 and ME-2

Hence , it is not a hypothetical chance the Geth may become sentient - they achieved that back when humans had not even recognised the concept of Evolution .

And whatever form sentience takes, whether biological, metaphysical or sillicate-based, it will still be sentience.

Because otherwise if one's life ( and thereby viability of sentience ) is only sustainable and achieved through intervention of machines due to medical failure of the biological body, it  would logically mean that you have actually become an "mere machine" simply by depending upon .. say an artificial heart, non organic component of you ? Or a dialytic filtering machine ?

But why don't you take the next step and liberate your computer before-hand? Surely it will be greatful when the great human purge comes.

Evolution has nothing to do with the picture, a machines "evolution" are simply planned hardware and software upgrades, despite if they are done by us, or another machine, and I would expect a malfunctioning machine to be dealt with the same despite what year it is. The only difference in the geth of 2185 and the original geth are some hardware and software revisions. The fact that their software now comes to it's own conclusion in a manner comparable to organic life doesn't mean they should be treated as you or I. (looking foward to being called a racist against robots!)

In the cases you speak of, artificial heart, etc, there is still a human brain and soul there. The key part of AI is the A, the artifical part of the picture. Artificial meaning it was designed by man or in this case another species. There is no reason to treat such a malfunctioning construct as anything more than just that.

Remember what Mordin says about the collectors, how does that not apply to the geth?

[achwas]

Christmas Ape wrote...

achwas wrote...
The chain of thought "They are different,  meaning they are malfunctioning and/or in error, hence they need to be protected egainst their own volition from themselves and/or eliminated" is a very ignorant and inferior one.

achwas said not an hour beforehand...
As for Admrial Xen, I sorely regretted there not being a renegade interrupt to shoot her through the mask, on the spot, with extreme prejudice

Certainly. Because Admiral Xen would certainly not condone a similar vivisection "experimentation" on a live and unwilling Quarian, likely meeting it with force, up to deadly level. But - to her - it is utterly acceptable, even desirable on a sapient Geth. That is discriminating speciesism, in the most despicable way.
Were she to do so on a human team-member, it would be attempted manslaughter, murder, likely part of a largergenocide and at the very least cruelty and torture.... to the threat of which, a renegade-interrupt of reacting with lethal force by Shepard would be utterly in character.

Like the numerous such occurrences in the game with Eclipse mercenaries (Illium), Krogans (Illium and Tuchanka), Salarians, Turians humans and even team mates like Grunt....

Hence the rather obvious absence in a talk with a rather extreme specieist is glaringly obvious. The only explanation for which is, that it is very unlikely that Legion will have been recruited and brought along to Tali's loyalty mission, which is the only circumstance where the interrupt would make sense and should occur.

Nevermind that harsh penalties for certain actions can be acceptable (say, the deathpenalty ), if the society agrees to have and them and apply them universally (which in reality is often doubtful ) and without bias (even more doubtful ). Which most racists, by definition, will not agree to, seeing themselves as superior or "entitled"

Very much like the Quarians, who do only perceive a wrong done unto them but not the wrongs they have wrought and are still trying to inflict upon the Geth.

Modifié par achwas, 25 octobre 2010 - 01:29 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

Nightwriter wrote...
They are not privy to the same knowledge as you. They have only been exposed to heretic geth.

So no, they are not as terrible.

But I am terrible for simply recognizing the only difference between the heretic and loyalist geth is a minor glitch? As Mordin said, there are many ways to help, executing dangerous individuals in the case the geth is one of those.

[Tranceptor]

Nightwriter wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Said hardware has evolved past its original parameters. It's no longer simply hardware.

Yep, it's broken hardware. Hence the need for a redesign.

Honestly the rest of the galaxy has no problem destroying the geth, are they are a bunch of terrible people too?

They are not privy to the same knowledge as you. They have only been exposed to heretic geth.



So no, they are not as terrible.

What the flying car said.