375 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Remember what Mordin says about the collectors, how does that not apply to the geth?

The geth were designed to be synthetic; the Collectors were warped by the Reapers, and the thing that mostly horrified Mordin anyway was the stripping of their sapience, something the geth do have.

[Nightwriter]

I dunno, Recon, this sounds an awful lot like ignorance and prejudice. And ignorance. I'm struggling to see it in a different way here but you're not making it easy for me. Help me out.

You act like people can't glitch, that people can't be programmed, that a simple change in electrochemical processes in the human brain can't result in a personality or behavioral change.

[Christmas Ape]

I don't know what's more absurd: that you're arguing both sides at once, that you feel there should be an interrupt for Shepard to unilaterally execute an unarmed quarian who also happens to be a member of the governing body in whose sovereign territory you are presently standing, that you consider "murderous isolationism and total disregard* for organic life" to be morally equivalent to "of a different ethnic group" when it comes to reasons for military engagement, or that you're arguing so strongly in defense of the geth without realizing that at low levels of networking they're not yet sapient.



* Absolutely literal. No regard. As devoid of cruelty as they are of compassion.

[achwas]

ReconTeam wrote...

Remember what Mordin says about the collectors, how does that not apply to the geth?

For one, since when is Mordin the sole fond of what is right and wrong in the galaxy or the greater universe ? Omniscient and wise-beyond-mortal-ken ? Doesn't sound like our favourite Salarian

And besides, what do we know of Geth art, society, intra-species interaction and would we even be able to recognise, even  more understand the art of a species and sentience based on mathmatics instead of neuro-chemical processes ? And obviously Geth are developing as yet hard to qualify emotions, if not strictly in the human sense, as shown by Legions "unsupported by data" attachment to Shepard's old N7 chestplate. Since when is fondness for souvenirs a logical, rational process ?

And because the Geth are obviously evolving, supported by the canon heretic/orthodox shism on the advancement of their species, this utterly sets them apart from the monolithic, passiv Collectors, and demonstrates that even going strictly by the letter of Mordin's sociological theorem, they are nothing at all like the Collectors.

Modifié par achwas, 25 octobre 2010 - 02:03 .

[achwas]

Christmas Ape wrote...

I don't know what's more absurd: that you're arguing both sides at once, that you feel there should be an interrupt for Shepard to unilaterally execute an unarmed quarian who also happens to be a member of the governing body in whose sovereign territory you are presently standing, that you consider "murderous isolationism and total disregard* for organic life" to be morally equivalent to "of a different ethnic group" when it comes to reasons for military engagement, or that you're arguing so strongly in defense of the geth without realizing that at low levels of networking they're not yet sapient.

* Absolutely literal. No regard. As devoid of cruelty as they are of compassion.

So members of governments are inherently incapable of comitting rationally despicable and sanctionable acts, aka "crimes" just by Default ? And may as such not be the subject of sanctions for their criminal acts committed, in the execution of or  proposed and in planning because they are on their sovereign territory  ?

Please tell that to the UN-Tribunal at the Hague, they will be so delighted to receive that crucial piece of information. Or, in the ME universe please go tell the Council. Especially certain late Asari matriarchs rom ME-1.

Also inform the legal counsels, nevermind the lawyers of the late Serbian prime minister Milosevics, the Romanian president Causescu and the remainder of Europe's historic gallery of Villains, two dozen African dictators, several heads of state from Latin America and Asia, one US-president and many others (including thousands of willing govenrment officials who "facilliated" business)  that their employers actually faced mistrials, because their actions were not in fact criminal at all (!) since they were part of the local govenrments while they committed them ! Governmental Immunity !

Honestly, even if one took your rationale serious - a renegade option is by its very nature one that goes _against_ established rules and conventions

And yes, the renegade option is _missing_. Remember this is a role-playing game, where such actions are actively encouraged for those picking the renegade's road. It's a glaring oversight from the point of story-telling. Even more so, because it is one that would tempt even most paragons.


In related news : the Geth are still (and have been for 300 years) in a state of war with the Quarians and any allies or has there been a Ceasefire or even a peace-agreement between the two species that we missed ? So it is still war with all that entitles , and any reconnaissance, incursion and venturing into their territory (and vice versa ) is resolved according to the dictates of war.
But appearantly only the "villainous" side of a war is ever murderous when killing combatants. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

What Mordin says about the Collectors doesn't apply to the Geth because the Collectors have been reduced to mindless drones. The Geth haven't. Even Mordin himself pretty much says this when he says the Collectors are worse than the Geth. In fact what happened to the Geth is the exact opposite of what happened to the Collectors. The Protheans were warped into non-sentient automatons. The Geth evolved from non-sapient machines into being self aware.

[Nightwriter]

Okay, who the hell told Christmas Ape they wanted to shoot Xen. Whoever you are I demand you give the rest of us an apology, he won't shut up about it. Also shooting people is not nice. Especially when they are voiced by Claudia Black.

[TheBlackBaron]

Nightwriter wrote...

Okay, who the hell told Christmas Ape they wanted to shoot Xen. Whoever you are I demand you give the rest of us an apology, he won't shut up about it. Also shooting people is not nice. Especially when they are voiced by Claudia Black.

Godwin's Law has been invoked harder than the angry fist of God, it's about time for this thread to break down anyway.

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 25 octobre 2010 - 02:39 .

[Xilizhra]

I'm sure we'll get to shoot Xen at some point.

[Therion942]

Nightwriter wrote...

Okay, who the hell told Christmas Ape they wanted to shoot Xen. Whoever you are I demand you give the rest of us an apology, he won't shut up about it. Also shooting people is not nice. Especially when they are voiced by Claudia Black.

I want to shoot Xen.
I also want to shoot TIM.
I want to shoot a lot of people.
BioWare won't let me. Thank the heavens for sandbox RPGs.

[Inquisitor Recon]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Godwin's Law has been invoked harder than the angry fist of God, it's about time for this thread to break down anyway.

Might as well, because apparently I am as bad as a certain Austrian with a habit for yelling, mass-murdering, and a funny mustache for believing the geth are just machines.



Tell me why I should think of them differently? I see no reason to think of them as comparable to organic life, and I don't see any benefit for keeping them around beyond whatever use they may have as a punching bag for the reaper. If put in the same same situation as the quarians, I would expect those geth systems to be "downgraded" immediately, and if that isn't possible, scrap them and start over. Genocide? You can no more conduct genocide against the geth than you can against a car in my opinion.

[Christmas Ape]

Holy hell, you made up about 80% of what you replied to.

achwas wrote...
So members of governments are inherently incapable of comitting rationally despicable and sanctionable acts, aka "crimes" just by Default ? And may as such not be the subject of sanctions for their criminal acts committed, in the execution of or  proposed and in planning because they are on their sovereign territory  ?
Please tell that to the UN-Tribunal at the Hague, they will be so delighted to receive that crucial piece of information. Or, in the ME universe please go tell the Council. Especially certain late Asari matriarchs rom ME-1.
Also inform the legal counsels, nevermind the lawyers of the late Serbian prime minister Milosevics, the Romanian president Causescu and the remainder of Europe's historic gallery of Villains, two dozen African dictators, several heads of state from Latin America and Asia, one US-president and many others (including thousands of willing govenrment officials who "facilliated" business)  that their employers actually faced mistrials, because their actions were not in fact criminal at all (!) since they were part of the local govenrments while they committed them! Governmental Immunity!

This is complete and utter gibberish and has absolutely nothing to do with anything that's been said.

Honestly, even if one took your rationale serious - a renegade option is by its very nature one that goes _against_ established rules and conventions

That's your rationale you're trying to cram into my mouth. Fortunately, my actual reasoning is only two words long so I should be able to get it out before you choke me with this horsecrap: Quarian. Marines.
You do realize you're on a quarian ship when you're talking to Xen, right? Shooting a member of the governing body in the face should end in a cacophony of gunfire and CRITICAL MISSION FAILURE.

And yes, the renegade option is _missing_. Remember this is a role-playing game, where such actions are actively encouraged for those picking the renegade's road. It's a glaring oversight from the point of story-telling. Even more so, because it is one that would tempt even most paragons.

Besides the fact you don't seem to understand Paragon all that well, then where's the option to shoot Udina when he locks down the Normandy, immediately followed by taking the Council hostage to escape the Citadel? Why can't I settle Jack & Miranda's argument at gunpoint? They chose to draw the line at completely insanely suicidal options, and I respect that.

In related news : the Geth are still (and have been for 300 years) in a state of war with the Quarians and any allies or has there been a Ceasefire or even a peace-agreement between the two species that we missed ? So it is still war with all that entitles , and any reconnaissance, incursion and venturing into their territory (and vice versa ) is resolved according to the dictates of war.

Completely incorrect. The quarians remain in a state of war with the geth; the geth themselves remain wary of the quarians but engage in no offensive pursuit. If the geth had been prosecuting a war with the quarians for three hundred years, there wouldn't be quarians.
Though I am interested in how you jump from the incorrect "the geth are in open war with the quarians" to the equally incorrect "and therefore are also at war with the Council races". It's not quarian ships that get destroyed past the Veil, by and large.

But appearantly only the "villainous" side of a war is ever murderous when killing combatants.

Sorry, I simply cannot parse what you're saying here. Are you saying that because a small faction of the Admiralty Board engaged in some potentially unethical research in the past year that the geth are completely justified in destroying every merchant freighter and scout ship that crosses the Veil for the three centuries previous? Or is it some odd way of saying that because you like the geth, quarian children counted as combatants?

Nightwriter wrote...
Okay, who the hell told Christmas Ape they wanted to shoot Xen. Whoever you are I demand you give the rest of us an apology, he won't shut up about it. Also shooting people is not nice. Especially when they are voiced by Claudia Black.

<_< What. In. The. F--k. Is. This?

Modifié par Christmas Ape, 25 octobre 2010 - 03:56 .

[Xilizhra]

Might as well, because apparently I am as bad as a certain Austrian with a habit for yelling, mass-murdering, and a funny mustache for believing the geth are just machines.

Well, you're not doing any mass-murdering, so points there.

[Pacifien]

So I got a comment that this thread should be locked. Since I am now a moderator of the people, I will abide. There's a bit of a real life sociopolitical commentary being brought into here, which is a no-go according to the site rules. There was a bit of deviation into the geth sentience debate, and old-time posters should know I'm happier with it being separated into its own thread versus co-opting every thread about the quarians. If you guys would like to continue discussing various topics brought up throughout this thread in a civil manner, I'm fine with you creating a new thread.

[Pacifien]

I got another comment that perhaps I should have just warned you guys about getting back on topic rather than an outright lockdown. So try to stay on topic and civil now.

[gethspy]

ReconTeam wrote...

God help us all if any of you robot sympathizers are in a position to put down a robot rebellion but refuse to do so.
Thanks for dooming us to be enslaved by the machines, jerks.

This coming from the freaking COMMISAR

[Killjoy Cutter]

Are they thinking, self-aware beings, with their own ideas and goals?



Stop thinking in terms of flesh, or origin, and start thinking about what it is that makes humans "human", and whether or not the fictional beings known as the Geth share those qualities.

[atheelogos]

^^^the above poster is on the right track

[Nightwriter]

The brain must be governed by reason and morality. You do not seem to be exhibiting either.

You cannot act like a wild boar intent on goring every living thing around you. You will quickly be killed by your peers and neighbors like a rabid animal. You must see this is unwise.

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

No matter how much you claim the geth aren't a species, it doesn't make it any more true.

The reverse is also true then.

Shand, our claims that the geth are a sentient species are supported by the in game Codex as fact.

Your claims that they are not a sentient species are not supported in any way whatsoever.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 26 octobre 2010 - 01:43 .

[I Vigil I]

Im sympathetic to the quarians because they have currently lost almost everything.  But what they are doing against the geth is wrong and i hope to be able to solve that issue in the future game to come. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Xen is just wrong.

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

The brain must be governed by reason and morality. You do not seem to be exhibiting either.

I have excessive amounts of both, more than almost anyone else. It's what enables me to post with such absoluteness.

No, that is called a superiority complex.

Shandepared wrote...

So is Daro'Xen not canon? Did I imagine her? The Reapers aren't real either then.

Fascinating.

Xen is merely incorrect. You are incorrect for agreeing with her incorrectness.

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

The reverse is also true then.

What do you mean? If BioWare says they're a species in the Mass Effect universe then that is the end of that.

Shandepared wrote...

Humanity was forced to attack out of desperation. The machines had flooded the world market with cheap goods and caused an economic melt-down. In order to save civilization from collapse and restore their economies humanity had no choice but to destroy the machines. Curiously, the machines seemed to have anticipated this action because they were well equipped to defend themselves and then to go on the offensive.

I wouldn't expect you to understand this though. That would mean thinking with your head and not your heart and it would imply the ability to see passed your own nose.

Interesting. I wonder if humanity tried asking the machines to stop selling such cheap goods? It's been so long since I've seen the Animatrix. Was that mentioned at all in it?

If you're trying to suggest that war was the only solution, or even the right one, you're going to need to be more convincing. This, like the Morning War, seems to be another example of how the judgments made by the aggressors in the conflict weren't the right ones in hindsight. In both cases the aggressors got in way over their heads and were nearly wiped out because of it. In both cases the aggressors chose war over more peaceful solutions due to incorrect assumptions about their enemy's capabilities.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 26 octobre 2010 - 02:41 .