375 réponses à ce sujet

[ninja0809]

i sympathize the Quarians b/c Tali is a Quarian

[atheelogos]

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

No matter how much you claim the geth aren't a species, it doesn't make it any more true.

The reverse is also true then.

Inverness Moon wrote...

You realize humanity attacked first in The Matrix, right?

Humanity was forced to attack out of desperation. The machines had flooded the world market with cheap goods and caused an economic melt-down. In order to save civilization from collapse and restore their economies humanity had no choice but to destroy the machines. Curiously, the machines seemed to have anticipated this action because they were well equipped to defend themselves and then to go on the offensive.

I wouldn't expect you to understand this though. That would mean thinking with your head and not your heart and it would imply the ability to see passed your own nose.

You missed a lot my friend. The machines went to UN for a peacefull solution. I'm guessing they wanted to negotiate economic reforms.
"Humanity was forced to attack out of desperation" I don't see how you can justify what the humans did when they didn't even try to solve for peace.

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

If you're trying to suggest that war was the only solution, or even the right one, you're going to need to be more convincing.

I've made my case but you're insistant that aggression in war is never justified.

Incorrect.

[Nightwriter]

"We should not go to war with the geth." =/= "Aggression in war is never justified."

Obviously.

[GuardianAngel470]

ReconTeam wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...
Godwin's Law has been invoked harder than the angry fist of God, it's about time for this thread to break down anyway.

Might as well, because apparently I am as bad as a certain Austrian with a habit for yelling, mass-murdering, and a funny mustache for believing the geth are just machines.

Tell me why I should think of them differently? I see no reason to think of them as comparable to organic life, and I don't see any benefit for keeping them around beyond whatever use they may have as a punching bag for the reaper. If put in the same same situation as the quarians, I would expect those geth systems to be "downgraded" immediately, and if that isn't possible, scrap them and start over. Genocide? You can no more conduct genocide against the geth than you can against a car in my opinion.

Not to get too far into this obviously useless debate, but I just want to point out that, were the geth ever able to complete their dyson sphere, they would be an excellent R&D department for Shepard.

Just, you know, one useful thing besides cannon fodder.

[GuardianAngel470]

Nightwriter wrote...

The brain must be governed by reason and morality. You do not seem to be exhibiting either.

You cannot act like a wild boar intent on goring every living thing around you. You will quickly be killed by your peers and neighbors like a rabid animal. You must see this is unwise.

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

No matter how much you claim the geth aren't a species, it doesn't make it any more true.

The reverse is also true then.

Shand, our claims that the geth are a sentient species are supported by the in game Codex as fact.

Your claims that they are not a sentient species are not supported in any way whatsoever.

Two things: First, the Codex is often wrong, and sometimes purposefully so. Just listen to the one about Sovereign.

Second, Pacifien asked us to get back on topic, and the topic of the thread is about sypathizing the quarians, not geth sentience. While I agree that the latter is relevant to the discussion, I have seen a correlation between posts and references to the OP.

To that end, I would like to add any species that has lost the sheer numbers the quarians have is deserving of a level of humanitarian sympathy. Yes they may have caused it, yes they may have propogated it, but the simple fact is that the species is nearly gone and the conditions they are in along with the reaction they get all over the galaxy engenders a level of compassion.

At least in, you know, people with imaginations.

[Nightwriter]

The Codex is right about this. What it says is supported by the rest of the game.

Anyway, I sympathize with the geth and quarians equally. I can understand both sides and I think the whole geth/quarian issue is tragic. Taking sides feels wrong.

The quarians deserve your sympathy. The geth deserve your benefit of the doubt.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

It's always fun to play devil's advocate once in a while.

Few things in the world confound me like people arguing for a position that they don't actually support, just for the heck of it.

[Christmas Ape]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
It's always fun to play devil's advocate once in a while.

Few things in the world confound me like people arguing for a position that they don't actually support, just for the heck of it.

Never took a debate class, huh? It's an intellectual exercise.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
It's always fun to play devil's advocate once in a while.

Few things in the world confound me like people arguing for a position that they don't actually support, just for the heck of it.

Never took a debate class, huh? It's an intellectual exercise.

Ideas matter. 

[Christmas Ape]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Ideas matter.

Agreed.


Seriously, you're going to have to put some more meat on this if it's supposed to be a counter-argument.

[Pacifien]

Debating about debating can go in the Off-Topic forum.

[Spectre_907]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Two things: First, the Codex is often wrong, and sometimes purposefully so. Just listen to the one about Sovereign.

In this case it is right and many in-game dialogue, narrative, and other facts demonstrate that the geth are indeed sapient.

To that end, I would like to add any species that has lost the sheer numbers the quarians have is deserving of a level of humanitarian sympathy. Yes they may have caused it, yes they may have propogated it, but the simple fact is that the species is nearly gone and the conditions they are in along with the reaction they get all over the galaxy engenders a level of compassion.

The species may be neary gone and they may be treated with distrust and fear among the other races and quarians like Tali make one feel sympathy for their current state of being but the fact that they have learned nothing from their mistakes by wanting to start another war with or enslave the geth again eliminates any sympathy.

[DPSSOC]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
To that end, I would like to add any species that has lost the sheer numbers the quarians have is deserving of a level of humanitarian sympathy. Yes they may have caused it, yes they may have propogated it, but the simple fact is that the species is nearly gone and the conditions they are in along with the reaction they get all over the galaxy engenders a level of compassion.

Why?  The conditions they live in, and even their reputation, are of their own design.  Why should I feel compassion towards people who realize they're in a bad situation, refuse to take any level of personal responsibility for it, and do absolutely nothing to change it?  It's not like their current situation is being imposed upon them by some outside authority they've chosen to live as vagrants and scavengers and resent the fact that they're viewed as vagrants and scavengers.  I can sympathize with people for making mistakes, I can sympathize with people who make bad decisions, I cannot however sympathize with people who refuse to learn from these situations and deny any responsibility for them.

I'll use an analogy I've used before; if someone sticks a fork in an outlet, get's shocked, blames the fork, and keeps doing it, why should I feel sory for them when they keep getting shocked?

[Saremei]

The level of sentience the Geth possess is irrelevant. Stating that they are equal to organic life is placing unwarranted value on simple software. Destroying a Geth is no more murder than taking a sledgehammer to a laptop. Annihilating a group of Geth is a less horrendous act than stomping on a single kitten.

These are not living creatures, but constructs that imitate a very basic and incomplete form of life.

Quarians are living, breathing beings that can experience all emotions and sensations that life brings. The Geth are just cold, unfeeling machines of logic. I can't sympathize with silicon.

[Zulu_DFA]

DPSSOC wrote...

The conditions they live in, and even their reputation, are of their own design.  Why should I feel compassion towards people who realize they're in a bad situation, refuse to take any level of personal responsibility for it, and do absolutely nothing to change it?  It's not like their current situation is being imposed upon them by some outside authority they've chosen to live as vagrants and scavengers and resent the fact that they're viewed as vagrants and scavengers.

To clarify. The quarian society seems a little bit too traditionalist to me. Namely, there is aristocracy and there is peasantry. Hard working Quarians like Kal'Reegar do evoke some sympathy, like any oppressed "little guy". The space princess Tali and the admirals who get it light and deny their own people a chance to reboot the Quarian race, because of their sick pride refusing to admit that they'd lost a war to their own toasters...

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 27 octobre 2010 - 12:20 .

[DPSSOC]

Shandepared wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Why?  The conditions they live in, and even their reputation, are of their own design.  Why should I feel compassion towards people who realize they're in a bad situation, refuse to take any level of personal responsibility for it, and do absolutely nothing to change it?

It is not of their own design, they were born into it. Secondly they are taking steps to change it, there was a huge dialog-heavy quest about it. Did you miss it?

Ok fair point.  When I say it's of their design I'm speaking of the Quarians as a collective (past and present).  The Quarians decided to be nomads, they could have settled on a world and worked to retake their homeworld from there (don't blame the Council there are plenty of areas outside Council jurisdiction they could have settled).  Why they made that choice is irrelevant, they made it and have clearly been ok with it for the past 300 years.

And I do suppose I have to give you the fact they are trying to change it now, but I believe their plans are ill conceived acts of desperation.  They may work out, but that doesn't change what they are.  That's how I see it anyway feel free to disagree.

Zulu_DFA wrote...
To clarify. The quarian society seems a little bit too traditionalist to me. Namely, there is aristocracy and there is peasantry. Hard working Quarians like Kal'Reegar do evoke some sympathy, like any oppressed "little guy". The space princess Tali and the admirals who get it light and deny their own people a chance to reboot the Quarian race, because of their sick pride refusing to admit that they'd lost a war to their own toasters...

Yes I can certainly sympathize with individual Quarians like Ken on Omega or the one on Illium.  However when it comes to the Quarians as a whole I can't.  Part of it may be that Ken is busting his butt to fix his situation and the one on Illium freely admits she messed up, rather than sitting down and crying out "Woe is me."

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

It is not of their own design, they were born into it. Secondly they are taking steps to change it, there was a huge dialog-heavy quest about it. Did you miss it?

That is certainly true. My support for the quarians depends on how they try to change their situation. If they're simply going to repeat the same mistakes as before (going to war with the geth), then it will simply prove that they have learned nothing, and have not evolved. In that case I will side with the geth and ask them to accept those quarians that don't want war with the geth like Zaal'Koris. The rest of them can die in the skies above their homeworld.

[Moiaussi]

What worlds have they tried to settle other than the one that was ceded to the Elcor? And wasn't that a high gravity world within Council space?



If they feel they have enough of a fleet to risk war, they should be able to find and hold a world to call their own. Terraforming can be difficult, but so is maintaining clean ecosystems on the scale they do. Worst case, they could start with completely enclosed settlements on barren world(s) in the same system they are terraforming.



They couldn't have been that non-adaptable either, in that they had other worlds besides just their homeworld, pre-morning war.

[DPSSOC]

Shandepared wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
When I say it's of their design I'm speaking of the Quarians as a collective (past and present).

I feel the same way about most minorities but admitting this causes everyone to call me a racist. I think the same could be applied to you in this case, just to be fair.

If we're being fair certainly.  I've been called far worse in my time.

Shandepared wrote...
It's just a game of-course, but you are judging an entire species. That's absurd.

Delightfully so, I also judge Batarians and Asari (parasitic vermin).  I'm judging a species based on the facts of it's history and the disposition of it's populace (admittedly a small sample size based on what I've encountered), and government.  Based on my observations I have made a judgement and will stand by said judgement until evidence or a compelling argument can be made otherwise.  Yes it may be absurd to generalize an entire species but it makes things very neat and tidy with everyone lumped into nice little categories.

Shandepared wrote...
The quarians have tried to settle worlds, but it hasn't worked out. Settling down would be a long and resource intensive process. They can't just settle anywhere, after all.

 
Why not?  Even if the land on an inhospitable world they at least have the advantage of having a stable home which can provide natural resources that they can trade for other resources.  No planet they chose could be any worse than wandering through space.

Shandepared wrote...
Perhaps their plans are desperate ones, but they're in a desperate situation. Their fleet is dying once it goes their species is likely doomed.

No disagreement here.  I acknowledge the positon they're in I understand why they're pushing for these things, I'm just not optimistic about their chances.

[Sinapus]

I'd sympathize with the Quarians in the game mainly because they weren't the ones who messed up and lost their homeworld, they're the descendants of those who did. The whole "launch attack to retake the homeworld" idea is unwise, though. They'll lose. Probably everything.

If the data from Legion is correct, there might be a way to end the conflict peacefully, but there's a distinct lack of trust on both sides which makes that... difficult. 

I'd also say some people on this thread need to expand their science fiction horizons regarding AIs. Dahak, EDI, several Bolo MkXXXIII's and the Longshoreman of the Apocalypse are going to cry otherwise. Ennesby might make awful puns and the Fleetmind might send them to the Andromeda Galaxy for penance.