375 réponses à ce sujet

[GuardianAngel470]

wulf3n wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...
You can't commit genocide against a gorram bundle of software. People on this forum bandy that term around way too much.

I'm not saying the geth had no right to defend themselves, far from it, but it's totally illogical to say the quarians were wrong to try and deactivate the geth.

Im confused... if the gorram bundle of software has the right to defend itself, how can it not be wrong to de-activate them and remove any semblance of sentience?

Unless your stating that the right to live is earned not just blatantly applied to any form of sentient organism, an intriguing perhaps somewhat controversial philosophy ... but in that situation the Quarians have no rights either, as they pretty much failed to defend themselves.

Seconded, I don't see the logic in your post either.

[Spitfire80]

While playing ME 1 Tali made a good case for her people, i liked them because of her. Then Legion shows up doing the same for his. So it's not black and white for me anymore.



But as wrong as the Quarians were to try and flip the off switch on their servants, the Geth should have stopped short of killing millions of their creators. Again not making it any easier.



Still to me, the Quarians are more sympathetic of the two. They lost their homeworld, their colonies, millions of their people during the war alone, there's no accounting of how many they've lost since. While the Geth have apparently only grown, with a minor setback when they lost the heretics. (nuked them)

[CrimsonSpinach]

I'm with OP, it's difficult to feel sorry for the Quarians.



It's like kicking sand at people at the beach. You think it's harmless fun, bur eventually someone's going to question why. Just don't be like a buckethead and 'deactivate' them as soon as they step up.

[DPSSOC]

Shandepared wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

  How do you people do it?

Well they are feeling, thinking organisms just like we are. Like us, they can suffer, they can love, they can want. I feel for them because I can easily picture something similar happen to humanity. Imagine it, our entire civilization destroyed, billions dead. Thousands and thousands of years of history and achievement wiped away. With no allies to support us, we are left homeless and mostly futureless.

Fair enough and were that the be all and end all of things I'd sympathize with them too, but as I mentioned part of their problem, for me, is their attitude.  They picked a fight they couldn't win and rather than say, "Well we !@#$ed up, live and learn." they've decided to play the victim.  Now I can understand taking that position at first, I probably would, but maintaining that for 300 years just shows the Quarians don't want to admit to their part in the whole thing.

Shandepared wrote...
Furthermore, I sympathize with the quarians because they are unfairly persecuted. They did nothing wrong when they tried to deactivate the geth. They were acting in self defense. No doubt negligence on the part of a few people allowed the danger to arise in the first place, but to claim that billions of people deserve to die and the survivors (and their children) left homeless is callous. It's barbaric and inumane.

 
Agreed, I certainly understand the actions the Quarians took against the Geth and don't feel they deserve their fate I just can't be moved to feel they deserve anything better.  Whatever Tali or anyone else might say it doesn't matter, to me, that they feel they've paid for their mistake because they haven't learned from it, and as the saying goes, "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

Shandepared wrote...
The geth have given me no reason to sympathize with them.

 
Same here but sympathizing with the Geth is a lot like sympathizing with Americans just after they won the revolution.  The Geth aren't sufferring, they aren't being oppressed or persecuted so why the hell would you feel sympathy for them.

Slayer299 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

This has been something that's been bothering me since ME1 so I figured I'd get it off my chest while I'm bored.  How do you people do it?  What is it about the Quarians that engenders sympathy cause I've got nothing.  Any sympathy I might feel for their situation is dashed away by the fact it's their own damn fault and, more importantly, they don't realize it.

So, keeping things civil, what makes you sympathize with the Quarians, what quality do they possess that makes them pitiable?

Actually I don't understand your question. Why is it that if you sympathize with the Quarians, they must have something pitiable about them.

Poor word choice on my part perhaps, what is it about the Quarians that makes you able to sympathize with them, allows you to feel pity for them because I don't.  To me the Quarians are a kid jamming a fork into an electrical outlet.  It's a mistake and I might feel sympathy for him were it not for the fact he blames the fork and the outlet for shocking him rather than taking responsibility for his part in the equation.. 

[belwin]

I sympathize with the Quarian's to an extent,

they are still paying for the faults of thier anscestors who messed up like 300 years ago.

there is also the council, who went as far as to threaten genocide because they started colonizing a world while they requested it from the council.

also the fact that quarian's would take a long time to adapt to any other planet compared to Rannoch might have something to do with them not colonizing other worlds, I remember Tali mentioning that when talking about her immune system.

and sure, it's debatable that pre-emptive action isn't self-defense but even so i'm sure alot of quarian civies died after thier armies were already destroyed by the geth, which i'm pretty sure can be classified as genocide. but hey, then the pre-emptive attack could be to.

i like both races though, and i'm sure with some political prowess they could achieve peace again if the quarian's could put aside old grudges and try to get rid of the stigma's the galaxy has placed on them.

if not, then that pride and refusal for peace is thier hubris.

Modifié par belwin, 22 octobre 2010 - 11:16 .

[KendallX23]

Shepard works with other to further his own end...why would the geth be blamed for doing the same thing...heh...the whole galaxy sees species working with others to further their own ends..

[Christmas Ape]

Because there but for the grace of Shepard goes humanity. And considering the events on Luna, that might in fact be literal.

The Morning War happened three centuries ago, and that was the last time geth were active on an organic world until Eden Prime. They deserve as much punishment as humanity does for things that occurred on Earth in the 1800s. Since then the illegitimate junta that is the Citadel Council has, through an unknown number of incarnations, hounded, persecuted, and isolated the quarians at every opportunity on the basis of stories their great-great-great grandparents told them about the time a humanitarian crisis erupted in quarian space and everyone agreed they deserved it. Humanity is the favorite pet to the quarians' whipping boy, and that position far too easily becomes the reverse for me to not see a cautionary tale about Council motives and policies.

[Fiery Phoenix]

I must say I'm shocked that Shand feels something for the quarians. No offense or anything, Shand. Just totally didn't expect it.

[wulf3n]

Shandepared wrote...
Legion told me so and I don't see any reason he'd lie about it.

The geth only became sentient 300 years previous, and your expecting them to be as mature as the other space faring races? A species that preserve the planets of their creators which contain no value to them whatsoever, implies some form of emotion, even if the geth themselves is unaware of it.

Shandepared wrote...
It certainly doesn't endear me to them and neutrality in a fight for survival of all advanced organic life might as well be collaboration with the enemy.

So you'd condemn  a species for wanting to stay out of a fight that isn't theirs...thats totally rational.

Shandepared wrote...
Culture, labor, technical skills, and they expand known space by exploring new relays.

And you know for a fact that the geth possess none of these things?

Shandepared wrote...

Picard is a moron and he is directly responsible for all the people killed, maimed, and assimilted by the Borg after he passed up the chance to destroy them. 

By your logic we should completely wipe out any species that may pose a threat at some point in the future...thats totally rational.

Shandepared wrote...
They indirectly endorsed their actions which is nearly as bad. As soon as I get the chance the orthodox geth are going to suffer the same fate as the Heretics.

How so? because they didn't warn eden prime? ...that's totally rational.

Shandepared wrote...
Revelation.

I must have missed that part of the book.

Shandepared wrote...
No, they offered me nothing but a sniper rifle. That platform is still functional because I saved it, not because the geth sent it to me. 

Legion says his purpose was to seek you out, and help you in your fight against the old machines.

Shandepared wrote...
The geth work with me to further their own ends.

Wow, a species wants to further their own ends, and for that you condemn them to genocide...that's totally rational.

[Schattenkeil]

I must say that it's easy for us to be critics, but you gotta keep in mind that Legion is an absolute exception. To my knowledge the geth never communicated to anyone since the war between them and the Quarians. Something like that is written in the codex at least. (Then again, the codex also says that any rumor Sovereign was alive was completely baseless-)That they even cooperate is absolutely new. Until then the general impression of the galaxy of the geth must have been about the same as Shepard's in Mass Effect 1.

Now, with the impressions from Legions it seems possible that there might be some kind of agreement, in particular regarding the Quarian home world. But that's a new aspect to it. If you give the paragon answer in the Tali vs. Legion conflict that's the first time a Quarian and a geth cooperate at all since the geth developed on own consciousness. Heaven, the mere fact that they are yelling at each other - as opposed to killing each other - is a giant leap forward.

Modifié par Schattenkeil, 22 octobre 2010 - 01:49 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

I've little sympathy for them. Mostly because the quarians are an allusion to palestinians, and geth the israelis. 

That might be both the funniest and the saddest claim I've read on these boards since joining.



(Edit - clarity.)

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 22 octobre 2010 - 03:58 .

[TheBlackBaron]

wulf3n wrote...
Im confused... if the gorram bundle of software has the right to defend itself, how can it not be wrong to de-activate them and remove any semblance of sentience?

Unless your stating that the right to live is earned not just blatantly applied to any form of sentient organism, an intriguing perhaps somewhat controversial philosophy ... but in that situation the Quarians have no rights either, as they pretty much failed to defend themselves.

If you'll allow me to quote myself from another thread:

Were the quarians right for attempting to shut down the geth? Moral
questions aside, from a strategic and political view it was the correct
decision. A population of sentient machines that exists throughout the
fabric of your society, and that can share information at the speed of
light, is an extraordinarily dangerous thing to lose control of.
Moreover, the Council had laws in place against that sort of thing, and
the quarians had no idea how the geth would react to this newfound
sentience of theirs, especially given their primary use was as tools.

But
of course the geth had the right to defend themselves, if they were now
truly sentient. Any species - synthetic or otherwise - that doesn't
have a survival instinct is a ****ty species that nature wouldn't allow
the existence of. If the quarians are attacking them, then yes, they
were quite naturally going to fight back.

I'm even disinclined
to criticize them for the course the war took. Disproportionate
response, maybe, but the whole point of them fighting was to get the
quarians to bugger off and let them exist. If that's what it takes, so
be it. War is hell.

As to who's at fault for their continued
strife, well, the quarians may be trigger-happy, but if the geth are
really interested in peace, they should probably try finding a way to
communicate that instead of simply sitting behind the Perseus Veil, with
no contact with the rest of the galaxy, and blasting away at scout
ships (and it's never stated as to whether that was the "heretics" or
the "orthodox" geth).

tl;dr version: The quarians were acting in their own self-defense and self-interest when they launched a pre-emptive attack on the geth, as were the geth when they fought back, and I'm not going to grudge anybody fighting to defend themselves.

Furthermore, to answer what I'm fairly sure your next question will be, I don't value a geth on the same level as I would value a quarian, or a human, or a turian, or any other organic species (except maybe the asari ). Once an organic species is gone, via genoide/extinction/whatever, it's gone for good. With the geth, hell, you can just code some more software. Moreover, the geth are essentially a hive mind, so the emphasis on any individual is going to be reduced anyway.

[JaegerBane]

As many others do, I sympathise with the quarians to an extent. I don't begrudge them their decision to attempt to eradicate the quarians back during The Morning War and I generally feel the rest of the Citadel race's treatment of them has been appalling. Stuck in their ships, continuously being hounded away from every civilised area they go purely because their ancestors inadvertently (and unintentionally) breached a citadel edict just isn't right.

Where my sympathy breaks down is when the quarians do stupid things like decide they're going to fight wars against the Geth with a fleet of antiques and old bangers, or creating show trials, along with intentionally risking members of their own species, just because they can't figure out a normal way to make decisions on their course of action.

That isn't to say I don't have sympathy for the Geth, either, but like the quarians my sympathy only goes so far for them, too.

[Xilizhra]

I'd like the quarians to have their world back again, and think that they could probably make peace with the geth to do so. This is all I really care about; if it fails, the quarians should find another world. If they can help enough against the Reapers, the Council may give them leave to do so.

[Xilizhra]

For one thing, it's very likely a fool's errand. 5% of the geth wreaked havoc on the galaxy in ME1, and I really don't think that Xen's "plan" will turn the tide much. For another, I never support wars of aggression, which this would be. Not only was the Morning War 300 years ago, that was a war of aggression on the quarians' part as well.

[Dave of Canada]

I'm totally siding with the Geth if possible, the Quarians tried to create a slave race and got what they deserved. If Tali betrays me, who cares? Legion is my homeboy.

[KendallX23]

Xilizhra wrote...

For one thing, it's very likely a fool's errand. 5% of the geth wreaked havoc on the galaxy in ME1, and I really don't think that Xen's "plan" will turn the tide much. For another, I never support wars of aggression, which this would be. Not only was the Morning War 300 years ago, that was a war of aggression on the quarians' part as well.

        that war was quarian fault...but they will never admit it...since they don't want to admit the geth are more then their slaves who got an error code(well there are a few who believe there should be peace between them)
       

[Xilizhra]

Did you rewrite the Heretics? Did you forget about Overlord?

I did rewrite the heretics--using a virus made by the geth themselves, with help from the Reapers. I doubt the quarians have access to that kind of technological privilege. As for Overlord, I don't have that so I can't truly answer, but that isn't even close to the kind of scale that would be necessary to take the homeworld (and it's irrelevant in any case, as I'd shut the project down).

What is a war of aggression anyway? Why don't you support them? Sometimes to get what you want, what you need, you to be willing to go on the offensive. The geth foricbly evicted the quarians from their own worlds, why don't the quarians have the right to take those worlds back by any means?

It's an overly violent option when plenty of less violent ones exist.

[Mox Ruuga]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

Ah, all that hate.... I think you hate White Power Bill!

Anyway, all the Quarians we meet are pretty much Mary Sue's (even the guys with the exception of Kal'Reegar). They are honest, modest, altruistic to a point, polite etc... makes them easy to like.

They are not Mary Sues.

But they are a blatant attempt at Woobiefying an species. An entire race of plucky little Dickens orphans, bravely facing the world that hates them, Shepard their only friend.

Blegh.  If just one of the little victim Quarians had actually been a real criminal, like Elnora was, I wouldn't feel such scorn for them. Wouldn't it have been awesome if that Quarian on Citadel had actually been a pick pocket? Something you only found out later? But no, just another victim from a species full of victims.