375 réponses à ce sujet

[Killjoy Cutter]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I'm totally siding with the Geth if possible, the Quarians tried to create a slave race and got what they deserved. If Tali betrays me, who cares? Legion is my homeboy.

You're going to have to explain how you reached the conclusion that the Quarians intended to create a slave race. 
At least in the reality I'm posting from, ME1 and ME2 (especially) show us that the Quarians intended to create highly capable appliances, not slaves.  It was when the Geth began to show signs of developing sapience that the Quarians paniced and attempted to shut them down -- because they didn't want slaves!

[Phaedon]

Genocide. I don't think that people understand what it involves.

[Aedan_Cousland]

DPSSOC wrote...

This has been something that's been bothering me since ME1 so I figured I'd get it off my chest while I'm bored.  How do you people do it?  What is it about the Quarians that engenders sympathy cause I've got nothing.  Any sympathy I might feel for their situation is dashed away by the fact it's their own damn fault and, more importantly, they don't realize it.
?

I've felt that way since ME1 from that first conversation with Tali about the origins of the Geth. I went into that conversation thinking the Geth were one dimensional villains, and came out of it thinking the opposite. There really isn't much to sympathize with the Quarians over. They created the Geth to begin with, then overreacted when the Geth became sapient, and tried to destroy them. The Geth were just defending themselves, like any organic species would have done if faced with the prospect of being wiped out.

Then in ME2 we learn that the Geth do not desire conflict with the Quarians, and it is only the Quarians that keep it going. The Quarians quite frankly aren't worthy of any sympathy.

That doesn't mean however that I want the Geth to wipe them out. I would like to see the conflict resolved peacefully (after all the Quarians already lost the war), and for both species to coexist. But for that to happen the Quarians are going to have to admit their mistakes, and admit defeat. The only way they could ever return to their homeworld is through peace negotiations with the Geth.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 22 octobre 2010 - 06:13 .

[Phaedon]

I've felt that way since ME1 from that first conversation with Tali about the origins of the Geth. I went into that conversation thinking the Geth were one dimensional villains, and came out of it thinking the opposite. There really isn't much to sympathize with the Quarians over. They created the Geth to begin with, then overreacted when the Geth became sapient, and tried to destroy them. The Geth were just defending themselves, like any organic species would have done if faced with the prospect of being wiped out.

So ? If your PC becomes sapient, won't you shut it down for good ? 1) You don't want a slave, 2) It's too risky.

Then in ME2 we learn that the Geth do not desire conflict with the Quarians, and it is only the Quarians that keep it going. The Quarians quite frankly aren't worthy of any sympathy.

They only defended themselves against Heretics, and they are not aware that Geth want peace.

[Xilizhra]

So ? If your PC becomes sapient, won't you shut it down for good ? 1) You don't want a slave, 2) It's too risky.

Are you nuts? If my PC became sapient, I'd want to keep the thing around. I mean... we've got synthetic life that evolved into sapience on its own. Imagine what we could learn from that. Of course, they'd have to consent to being studied first, but that doesn't sound impossible.

This, of course, is ignoring all of the moral implications that come of destroying life because it's too smart.

[Phaedon]

Xilizhra wrote...

So ? If your PC becomes sapient, won't you shut it down for good ? 1) You don't want a slave, 2) It's too risky.

Are you nuts? If my PC became sapient, I'd want to keep the thing around. I mean... we've got synthetic life that evolved into sapience on its own. Imagine what we could learn from that. Of course, they'd have to consent to being studied first, but that doesn't sound impossible.
This, of course, is ignoring all of the moral implications that come of destroying life because it's too smart.

I think that you would freak out. As 99% of us would. We don't even know if they would destroy them, they just wanted to turn them off for now. And it seems to have been for a good reason. The geth have spilled more blood than the Krogan could in a decade...

Modifié par Phaedon, 22 octobre 2010 - 08:55 .

[Xilizhra]

You're a hypocrite then. I get it.

Not quite. I'm changing one decision for a small minority, that arose out of a calculation error (or at least a mental glitch of some sort) because the alternative is killing them. The proposal here is to change every behavior pattern for the entire race when there are plenty of other things to do.

That depends on what the quarians want. If they want their homeworld back but cannot come an agreement on terms with the geth then violence is their only recourse.

No. I don't believe another war is a morally sound choice. The wars of the past are over; it's time to start renewing things.

[Xilizhra]

Oh okay, so you're only kind of a hypocrite, like just a little bit. Thanks for clearing that up.

As is anyone who doesn't follow Rorschach's "No compromises. Even in the face of armageddon."

The least you can do if you're going to be a Legion fanboy is get the facts straight.

Fangirl. Also, what they say there is vague and rather contradictory; a mathematical equation cannot produce two equally valid outcomes, so if the equation returns with different results, something has obviously gone wrong. If you wish to disregard it, use my other two reasons.

If they take back the homeworld they can begin renewing things.

As they can if they find a new world, with no bloodshed/slavery necessary.

[Pacifien]

Xilizhra wrote...
Fangirl. Also, what they say there is vague and rather contradictory; a mathematical equation cannot produce two equally valid outcomes, so if the equation returns with different results, something has obviously gone wrong. If you wish to disregard it, use my other two reasons.

If you tell a program to round 1.835 to the nearest hundredth, you get 1.84. If you tell a program to truncate 1.835 to the nearest hundredth, you get 1.83. Neither one is incorrect.

I personally think the Heretics joined up with Sovereign without any interference on the Reaper's part, but I've had to concede that it's a matter of interpretation of explicit/implicit evidence.

But that's really off the point of the thread, which is always easy to do once people start trying to figure out the geth. I know Shandepared is a big believer in Xen's plan, but I happen to think it's bollocks. Without using it, the quarians are in for a catastrophic fight to regain their homeworld. The planet isn't going anywhere anytime soon, though, so makes sense to me that they colonize another world, rebuild their civilization, then rethink the situation with their homeworld. They've built up this idea that the homeworld is the only way, which is where my sympathy for them starts to fail.

Modifié par Pacifien, 22 octobre 2010 - 07:09 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Phaedon wrote...

Genocide. I don't think that people understand what it involves.

It's not genocide if you pull the plug before the toasters becomes people.

(And keep in mind that research into making toasters into people is highly restricted by the Council at the time of the events in question.) 

The Quarians had a giant "OH CRAP" moment and pulled the plug just a moment too late.


Neither side has clean hands, neither side is really the villain of the story.  The Quarians and the Geth (not the heretics) are all players in a great and terrible tragedy.

[TheBlackBaron]

It's easy to sit in the Internet equivalent of an ivory tower and say, "If my toaster/computer/whatever suddenly became sentient, I would treat it as a friend and set it free and ask for permission to study it."

In reality, I think about 99.5% of the population would freak the **** out and react exactly as the quarians did, and if they didn't, then somebody else would.

EDIT: If the quarians want the homeworld back, Xen's plan is really their only option. Colonizing a new planet would take a very long time, longer than we have, and that's assuming the Council even allows them to. Fighting a straight up war with the geth isn't going to accomplish much at all. It's either play the assymetrical cyberwarfare card, or get nothing.

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 22 octobre 2010 - 07:26 .

[Ryzaki]

If you computer/toaster suddenly became sentient after you kept making it more and more intelligent to do certain tasks? Because that's what the Geth was. Not a machine magically beginning to think. The Quarians just had to keep pushing which is why I feel little pity for them.

[TheBlackBaron]

Ryzaki wrote...

If you computer/toaster suddenly became sentient after you kept making it more and more intelligent to do certain tasks? Because that's what the Geth was. Not a machine magically beginning to think. The Quarians just had to keep pushing which is why I feel little pity for them.

They didn't keep making it more intelligent after it became sentient - sentience was the end result of the quarian's tinkering prior to the start of the war.

It's not like the geth asked, "Does this unit have a soul?" and then the quarians went "Cool story, bro" and went right on tinkering. That's the moment that they could be said they attained sentience (if you believe they ever did - I know Shand doesn't buy into that), and that's the moment the quarians began attempting to shut them down.

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 22 octobre 2010 - 07:33 .

[Xilizhra]

It's easy to sit in the Internet equivalent of an ivory tower and say, "If my toaster/computer/whatever suddenly became sentient, I would treat it as a friend and set it free and ask for permission to study it."

Well, I might freak out, but I sure as hell wouldn't destroy it. And honestly, I'm pretty sure that trying to figure out what's going on would be my first priority.

EDIT: If the quarians want the homeworld back, Xen's plan is really their only option. Colonizing a new planet would take a very long time, longer than we have, and that's assuming the Council even allows them to. Fighting a straight up war with the geth isn't going to accomplish much at all. It's either play the assymetrical cyberwarfare card, or get nothing.

Or, you know, make peace with the geth.

[TheBlackBaron]

Xilizhra wrote...

EDIT: If the quarians want the homeworld back, Xen's plan is really their only option. Colonizing a new planet would take a very long time, longer than we have, and that's assuming the Council even allows them to. Fighting a straight up war with the geth isn't going to accomplish much at all. It's either play the assymetrical cyberwarfare card, or get nothing.

Or, you know, make peace with the geth.

I tend to be skeptical about the long-term viablity of that, as such I admittedly tend to discard it.

Also, Koris is an utter douchebag. So that's probably colored my views as well.

[Xilizhra]

Koris isn't so bad, just a bit blustery. Not a clear maniac like Xen.

[Ryzaki]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

If you computer/toaster suddenly became sentient after you kept making it more and more intelligent to do certain tasks? Because that's what the Geth was. Not a machine magically beginning to think. The Quarians just had to keep pushing which is why I feel little pity for them.

They didn't keep making it more intelligent after it became sentient - sentience was the end result of the quarian's tinkering prior to the start of the war.

It's not like the geth asked, "Does this unit have a soul?" and then the quarians went "Cool story, bro" and went right on tinkering. That's the moment that they could be said they attained sentience (if you believe they ever did - I know Shand doesn't buy into that), and that's the moment the quarians began attempting to shut them down.

When did I say that they kept tinkering with the geth after sentience? They wanted their normal computer to do more complicated problems so kept making it more and more intelligent and closer to AI and then act shocked when it starts to think. 

So yeah I have no pity for them. They kept pushing the line and when it finally starts to think instead of stopping and trying to communicate they go: "Oh no! MUST DESTROY!" and get their asses kicked. 

Now I might feel some pity if the Geth had randomly appeared but they didn't. It was a result of the Quarians own actions .

Modifié par Ryzaki, 22 octobre 2010 - 07:37 .

[TheBlackBaron]

Xilizhra wrote...

Koris isn't so bad, just a bit blustery. Not a clear maniac like Xen.

Xen is at least polite and upfront about the real nature of the trial. And I don't see how she's a maniac either - Well Intentioned Extremist, at worst.

Mainly, it's just that Koris really rubs me the wrong way, especially after straight up admitting that even if Tali has done nothing wrong, he want to exile her anyway just to prove a point.

[TheBlackBaron]

Ryzaki wrote...
When did I say that they kept tinkering with the geth after sentience? They wanted their normal computer to do more complicated problems so kept making it more and more intelligent and closer to AI and then act shocked when it starts to think.

Ryzaki wrote...

If you computer/toaster suddenly became
sentient after you kept making it more and more intelligent to do
certain tasks? Because that's what the Geth was. Not a machine magically
beginning to think. The Quarians just had to keep pushing which is why I
feel little pity for them.

So yeah I have no pity for them. They kept pushing the line and when it finally starts to think instead of stopping and trying to communicate they go: "Oh no! MUST DESTROY!" and get their asses kicked. 

Now I might feel some pity if the Geth had randomly appeared but they didn't. It was a result of the Quarians own actions .

Again, it's exceptionally easy to sit here and say that they should have tried to communicate with the geth. Hindsight is 20/20. I doubt anybody really in that situation, of any species, would have reacted much differently than the quarians.

[Lord_Caledore]

TheBlackBaron wrote...
Again, it's exceptionally easy to sit here and say that they should have tried to communicate with the geth. Hindsight is 20/20. I doubt anybody really in that situation, of any species, would have reacted much differently than the quarians.

Agreed. They didn't act out of maliciouis intent, but out of panic. As most people would in their shoes.

Does it absolve them of blame? No, of course not. But it does make their actions understandable.

Also, though the details of the Morning War aren't entirely clear, it seems to me the Geth wiped out the majority of the Quarian population. Non-combatants included - people who were innocent in the creation of the Geth, and the subsequent choice to destroy them. The Geth's hands aren't clean, either.

Modifié par Lord_Caledore, 22 octobre 2010 - 07:51 .

[raist747]

Kinda mixed because we know its extremely difficult for them to adapt to new environments and the whole "inheriting the sins of the father" argument is cruel as well as invalid.

[Jabarai]

Mox Ruuga wrote...
.....
But they are a blatant attempt at Woobiefying an species. An entire race of plucky little Dickens orphans, bravely facing the world that hates them, Shepard their only friend.

Blegh.  If just one of the little victim Quarians had actually been a real criminal, like Elnora was, I wouldn't feel such scorn for them.....

You'll love the second book! 

[Ryzaki]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
When did I say that they kept tinkering with the geth after sentience? They wanted their normal computer to do more complicated problems so kept making it more and more intelligent and closer to AI and then act shocked when it starts to think.

Ryzaki wrote...

If you computer/toaster suddenly became
sentient after you kept making it more and more intelligent to do
certain tasks? Because that's what the Geth was. Not a machine magically
beginning to think. The Quarians just had to keep pushing which is why I
feel little pity for them.

So yeah I have no pity for them. They kept pushing the line and when it finally starts to think instead of stopping and trying to communicate they go: "Oh no! MUST DESTROY!" and get their asses kicked. 

Now I might feel some pity if the Geth had randomly appeared but they didn't. It was a result of the Quarians own actions .

Again, it's exceptionally easy to sit here and say that they should have tried to communicate with the geth. Hindsight is 20/20. I doubt anybody really in that situation, of any species, would have reacted much differently than the quarians.

Uh...that says what. After you continued making it more and more sentient. AFTER not during. You gave it more and more intelligence til the point it became sentient 

If you build a computer that can do normal tasks fine, after a while you start making it so the computer can do slighter more complicated tasks so you start giving it a just a wee bit of intelligence. It doesn't count as an AI but it can the more complicated task, and you do that again, and again, and again, until one day the computers goes: "Why do I exist?" 

Oops. 

That's what the Quarians did. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 22 octobre 2010 - 08:15 .