375 réponses à ce sujet

[Jabarai]

raist747 wrote...

.....and the whole "inheriting the sins of the father" argument is cruel as well as invalid.

Well, I don't know about that... Who's going to take the blame if they're not? Those who fought the Geth back in the days knew that their offspring were doomed to unhappiness because of them. Indeed they were, and that's how it's always supposed to be.

Now, I'm really fond of the Quarians, don't get me wrong, but they'll simply have to figure out a way to exist. If my Shepard can help them, he will. If the Council treats them unequally, I would like to be able to put it right.

But generally speaking, having to pay for the bad deeds of one's ancestors is fair and just.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Jabarai wrote...

raist747 wrote...

.....and the whole "inheriting the sins of the father" argument is cruel as well as invalid.

Well, I don't know about that... Who's going to take the blame if they're not? Those who fought the Geth back in the days knew that their offspring were doomed to unhappiness because of them. Indeed they were, and that's how it's always supposed to be.

Now, I'm really fond of the Quarians, don't get me wrong, but they'll simply have to figure out a way to exist. If my Shepard can help them, he will. If the Council treats them unequally, I would like to be able to put it right.

But generally speaking, having to pay for the bad deeds of one's ancestors is fair and just.

Not really.  Not at all.

Go back far enough and everyone has anscestors who did something unspeakable to someone else's anscestors.  And there's nothing a person can do about it, nothing they can change, nothing that can make up for.  There's no way to control or be responsible for the actions of those who came and went long before you were even born.

A Quarian born today has done nothing to make her morally or ethically responsible for what happened 300 years ago (in the ME setting).  She wasn't there, she didn't make the decisions or take the actions that lead to the Morning War. 

Where is the justice, the fairness, in holding her responsible for something done generations before she was even conceived?

Sometimes everyone who can legitimately be blamed is dead and gone, and there's no one left to blame.  It is an artifact of our highly litigious culture, this belief that there must always, always, always be someone to take the blame and pay the price.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 22 octobre 2010 - 08:35 .

[magelet]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
At least in the reality I'm posting from, ME1 and ME2 (especially) show us that the Quarians intended to create highly capable appliances, not slaves.  It was when the Geth began to show signs of developing sapience that the Quarians paniced and attempted to shut them down -- because they didn't want slaves!

I agree. The Quarians were just using technology to do menial tasks for them, not unlike some technology that we use. Sure their attempt to destroy the Geth when they thought they were becoming sentient could have been, let's say...handled better, but honestly it makes sense.  If you thought a robot revolution was eminent would you just stand by? If you think of it as a mistake, then they have definitely paid for it also. Sympathy for the Quarians makes sense, because they were only trying to conrol circumstances that could not be controled. 

[GuardianAngel470]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

It's easy to sit in the Internet equivalent of an ivory tower and say, "If my toaster/computer/whatever suddenly became sentient, I would treat it as a friend and set it free and ask for permission to study it."

In reality, I think about 99.5% of the population would freak the **** out and react exactly as the quarians did, and if they didn't, then somebody else would.

EDIT: If the quarians want the homeworld back, Xen's plan is really their only option. Colonizing a new planet would take a very long time, longer than we have, and that's assuming the Council even allows them to. Fighting a straight up war with the geth isn't going to accomplish much at all. It's either play the assymetrical cyberwarfare card, or get nothing.

Or you know, learn from past mistakes like anybody and like, try for peace. Shepard gives them a viable avenue on that front, if they attack or try Xen's solution without attempting peace then they didn't learn and they deserve whatever they get.

[Phaedon]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Genocide. I don't think that people understand what it involves.

It's not genocide if you pull the plug before the toasters becomes people.

(And keep in mind that research into making toasters into people is highly restricted by the Council at the time of the events in question.) 

The Quarians had a giant "OH CRAP" moment and pulled the plug just a moment too late.


Neither side has clean hands, neither side is really the villain of the story.  The Quarians and the Geth (not the heretics) are all players in a great and terrible tragedy.

I meant that it the genocide was the geth's fault. I would understand if they would defend themselves, but come on, kill millions and evict them from their homeworld ? Not cool.

The geth have no moral boundaries and that makes them very dangerous. Don't expect the geth to not suddenly break a peace pact and start killing millions again. For them, it's logical. They are going to gain from this. 

[Praetor Knight]

I have to say that Salarian military doctrine is to strike preemptively. That is their rule and not an exception.

The Quarians reacted to Geth sentience and executed very poorly (so they're not the cutthroat military types), but by the time they acted it's also not clear how long the Geth had actual self-awareness. So this point is tough to argue either way without knowing the Geth factor of self-awareness 300 years ago.

Personally, I have empathy for the Quarians, which may color my opinion, but it also seems that the Council decided to make an entire species an example of what not to do with AI Research.

So that anytime someone else barks up the AI tree, the Council can point to the Quarians and say look what we did to the Quarians, don't research AI!

It's similar to how the Council treated the Krogan, Batarians and Yahg. If their Council's livelihood is threatened the new guys have to shape up or else. And the punishment can be too severe.

Boy thinking about this now makes me want to sacrifice the Council in ME1

Edit: Forgot about the Yahg

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 22 octobre 2010 - 09:13 .

[wulf3n]

Shandepared wrote...
I don't know what you are talking about. In Legion's own words the geth do not feel emotions. That means they can't suffer. If they can't suffer I can't sympathize with them. Only things which can be hurt can be sympathetic.

The geth are only just coming to terms with being sentient, and just like data from tng, they can say they don't have emotions till the cows come home, but they're actions prove otherwise

Shandepared wrote...
It is theirs whether they want to accept it or not. Seeing as they refused to take action against the Heretics until they themselves were directly threatened I see no reason not to hold them responsible for their attacks.

you know for a fact that the reapers will attack the geth?

Shandepared wrote...

The galaxy hates and fears the geth, I wonder why that is? Perhaps it is because the only ambassadors the geth have ever had have been violent ones. Whose fault is that? It's theirs, and they'll pay for it.

The same goes for the batarians, the only contact the alliance has with them are pirates, we should probably wipe out the entire species they've already proven a threat, same with the krogan, thanks to wrex/wreave they've become isolationist, and we all know how violent and dangerous krogan are, we should probably wipe out the entire species they've already proven a threat, and don't forget the turians, the first time we met them they wiped out an entire exploration convoy with no warning, then went on to bomb civilian towns at shanxi, while were at it, we should probably wipe out the asari and salarians for not stoping the turians, and the Elcor, Hanar, Volus and Quarians for remaining nuetral.

Shandepared wrote...
]So far I've seen no evidence of it. Isolations by their very nature contribute nothing to those around them.

The quarians didn't provide they're culture, labour, technical skills, they stick to to their own as much as the geth do

Shandepared wrote...
They've already proven to be a threat.

So has every other species in the galaxy, are you saying we eradicate them all?

Shandepared wrote...
He says his purpose was to seek me out but he doesn't say why. Regardless, one platform doesn't impress me much. How a goddamn fleet?

Your right one person isn't enough, becuase the asari gave us...ok then the turians gave.... hmmm it seems like the only race that gave us anything other than humans were the geth! and even the human support is just a renegade branch of the ruling government. Every other race on board acted on their own behalf, not that of their government. So it seems the geth are the most supportive race in the fight against the reapers.

Modifié par wulf3n, 22 octobre 2010 - 09:43 .

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Phaedon wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Genocide. I don't think that people understand what it involves.

It's not genocide if you pull the plug before the toasters becomes people.

(And keep in mind that research into making toasters into people is highly restricted by the Council at the time of the events in question.) 

The Quarians had a giant "OH CRAP" moment and pulled the plug just a moment too late.


Neither side has clean hands, neither side is really the villain of the story.  The Quarians and the Geth (not the heretics) are all players in a great and terrible tragedy.

I meant that it the genocide was the geth's fault. I would understand if they would defend themselves, but come on, kill millions and evict them from their homeworld ? Not cool.

The geth have no moral boundaries and that makes them very dangerous. Don't expect the geth to not suddenly break a peace pact and start killing millions again. For them, it's logical. They are going to gain from this. 

Not cool? The Quarians wanted to destroy every single Geth... what would you have them do? Keeping the Quarian's in their space would be too dangerous because they would keep wanting to reprogram/kill the Geth. This was a war that was either going to have one side completely wiped out if the Quaraians had one or have on madly beaten when the Geth won.

Lets not forget that if the Geth wanted to kill the Quaraians they could. Its not like the council would care if the Quaraians were wiped out. The truth is that the Geth had their hands forced they could either evict the Quarian's or risk their entire race being attacked by the Quaraians forever. They allowed the Quarians to survive because they knew that they deserved to live which is more than the Quarians could ever say.

[wulf3n]

Phaedon wrote...
I meant that it the genocide was the geth's fault. I would understand if they would defend themselves, but come on, kill millions and evict them from their homeworld ? Not cool.

The geth were barely sentient and the first act against them was attempted genocide, and you expect them to act with the reasoning and rationale similar to species that spend countless millennia  getting to the same point. 

Phaedon wrote...
The geth have no moral boundaries and that makes them very dangerous.

How do you know this? what are morals? where do morals stem from? why do humans have them? why is morality so varied among people who live so close?

Phaedon wrote...
 Don't expect the geth to not suddenly break a peace pact and start killing millions again. For them, it's logical. They are going to gain from this. 

I'm sick of people throwing around the word logical. True logic is a very complicated concept that involves weighing up all options and coming to the most reasonable conclusion. My point, in war the gains are often outweighed by the losses. and what will they gain? what resources do the geth require? they don't need planets! what possible reason could they have to attack other species?

[Ryzaki]

^ Agreed.
The Geth would have no reason to attack someone unless it was in self-defense. They've gotten along all this time by themselves. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 22 octobre 2010 - 10:08 .

[S-A128]

I have sympathy for the quarians since they can't kiss,touch a flower with bare fingers or inhale it's fragrence,touch there loved ones,can't see there loved ones face,Being stuck in a suit for the rest of their lives is sad enough. Call me soft-hearted i don't care. The geth fought for continued existence and cleaned the planet (Rannoch) from whats left of the morning War

Modifié par S-A128, 22 octobre 2010 - 10:32 .

[S-A128]

Srry double posted. Damn internet

Modifié par S-A128, 22 octobre 2010 - 10:30 .

[DPSSOC]

Wiht regards to the PC sentience analogy it's a bad one. If my PC gains sentience it's harmless, all I have to do is unplug my internet cable or remove my wireless router (admittedly more time consming) and any sentience that may exist inside is forever trapped within a metal box under my desk where I can interact and study it at my leisure.



That's not what the Geth were, they were heavily integrated into almost every aspect of Quarian society. It'd be more accurate to compare it to the Planet of the Apes (original movies not the remake). The Quarians created the Geth to serve as beasts of burden to perform menial or dangerous tasks, pushing on the limits of what the Geth could do. Similarly in Planet of the Apes humans trained apes to perform more and more complex tasks, trying to make them more and more intelligent. When faced with the threat of a truly intelligent ape, one who could speak and think, the humans panicked and tried to violently put down the threat of ape rebellion. This backfired as the apes were better prepared for the human reaction than they believed. This led to the Apes rising to power and eventually enslaving humans. The situation with the Quarians and the Geth is almost a perfect parallel; the Geth became smart enough to threaten the Quarians, the Quarians panicked, reacted badly, got their backsides handed to them, and now suffer for centuries because of it.



So if you suddenly found yourself face to face with a Gorrilla that could walk, talk, and use advanced tactics and weaponry what would your first reaction be? I think most of us would panic, it's a natural reaction and hardly worthy of condemnation in and of itself. What the Quarians have done however is fail to accept that they panicked and consider that they may be at least somewhate to blame for their current situation and perhaps they should stop with the "woe is me"s.

[Unwise Wisdom]

I like the Quarians, but I don't feel sorry for them, they created their own mess.

Don't feel sorry about the Geth either, they can take care of themselves just fine, oh and they don't whine.

[Dean_the_Young]

I wasn't aware Tali and her father's generation had any role in the decision to attempt to exterminate the Geth.

[Water Dumple]

DPSSOC wrote...

This has been something that's been bothering me since ME1 so I figured I'd get it off my chest while I'm bored.  How do you people do it?  What is it about the Quarians that engenders sympathy cause I've got nothing.  Any sympathy I might feel for their situation is dashed away by the fact it's their own damn fault and, more importantly, they don't realize it.

Don't the codex and general conversations imply that the Quarians are aware that it's utterly and completely their fault?

They recognize it, but as Shala puts it, they've suffered long enough over the error. Their population is less than that of Texas, most of the galaxy is racist against them, their physical forms are so weak that they require suits to survive, and they have no galactic authority. Suffering for generations is enough punishment for one major mistake, including the whole Sins of the Father irrelevancy. I'd say the Geth don't deserve the prejudice they receive either, and peace between the two sides would be preferable--Though that outcome is probably unlikely. For the Quarians, it's already a genetic fallacy to generalize them all under the error committed three hundred years ago, and for the Geth, saying "they could attack again" is no different for a machine with free will than an organic with free will.

Modifié par Water Dumple, 23 octobre 2010 - 04:14 .

[Ryzaki]

I'd like for the Geth and Quarians to get along. Failing that I'm siding with the Geth.

[GuardianAngel470]

Water Dumple wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

This has been something that's been bothering me since ME1 so I figured I'd get it off my chest while I'm bored.  How do you people do it?  What is it about the Quarians that engenders sympathy cause I've got nothing.  Any sympathy I might feel for their situation is dashed away by the fact it's their own damn fault and, more importantly, they don't realize it.

Don't the codex and general conversations imply that the Quarians are aware that it's utterly and completely their fault?

They recognize it, but as Shala puts it, they've suffered long enough over the error. Their population is less than that of Texas, most of the galaxy is racist against them, their physical forms are so weak that they require suits to survive, and they have no galactic authority. Suffering for generations is enough punishment for one major mistake, including the whole Sins of the Father irrelevancy. I'd say the Geth don't deserve the prejudice they receive either, and peace between the two sides would be preferable--Though that outcome is probably unlikely.

Actually, they don't. Most quarians you talk to, including Tali, express that trying to shut down the geth was the right decision.

So far, the only quarian to contradict that is Mr. Quib Quib.

[Water Dumple]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Water Dumple wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

This has been something that's been bothering me since ME1 so I figured I'd get it off my chest while I'm bored.  How do you people do it?  What is it about the Quarians that engenders sympathy cause I've got nothing.  Any sympathy I might feel for their situation is dashed away by the fact it's their own damn fault and, more importantly, they don't realize it.

Don't the codex and general conversations imply that the Quarians are aware that it's utterly and completely their fault?

They recognize it, but as Shala puts it, they've suffered long enough over the error. Their population is less than that of Texas, most of the galaxy is racist against them, their physical forms are so weak that they require suits to survive, and they have no galactic authority. Suffering for generations is enough punishment for one major mistake, including the whole Sins of the Father irrelevancy. I'd say the Geth don't deserve the prejudice they receive either, and peace between the two sides would be preferable--Though that outcome is probably unlikely.

Actually, they don't. Most quarians you talk to, including Tali, express that trying to shut down the geth was the right decision.

So far, the only quarian to contradict that is Mr. Quib Quib.

From the codex:

The quarians began exhaustive research into creating artificial intelligence so they could learn to escape the bounds of mortality and give their ancestral records true awareness. Unfortunately, the life the quarians created did not accept the same truths they did. The geth destroyed the ancestor databanks when they took over.

In the centuries since they evacuated their homeworld, most quarians have returned to religion in various forms. Many believe the rise of the geth and the destruction of their 'ancestors' were chastisement for arrogantly forsaking the old ways and venerating self-made idols.

Others have a more philosophical outlook, believing their race was indeed arrogant, but no supernatural agency lay behind the geth revolt. Rather, the quarians' actions wrought their own doom. Either way, every quarian would agree that their own hubris cost them their homeworld.

Modifié par Water Dumple, 23 octobre 2010 - 04:21 .

[Manic Sheep]

Hmmm well I don’t know that I particularly sympathise with them. They did bring this on themselves but I don’t think they’re all that bad and I do like the Quarians. Don’t think there was a single Quarians character I didn’t like. The whole situation with the Geth was just one huge tragedy caused by allot of simple mistakes and misunderstandings to me.

Them making the Geth in the first place was a mistake. A stupid mistake but...I can kinda see how something like that would happen. As Tali said they underestimated the power of the neural network. They didn’t purposefully make AI’s. Legion said each Geth is made up of hundreds of programs equivalent to VIs, Its only when they are together that they develop a kind of abstract intelligence. As for the Qaurians trying to wipe out the Geth when they found out they were becoming sentient...not sure how far along the Geth were at that point or how much the Quarians knew about it but from what I gathered the Geth were at very early stages and the Quarians had thought/hoped that the majority were still little more than machines and they could just nip the problem in the bud before things got to complicated. I don’t necessarily like or agree with their decision to just wipe them all out but given the situation this choice is not surprising and I would probably do the same thing. They made a mistake and then tried to rectify it before things got out of hand, that doesn’t make them bad.

This however doesn’t mean I side with the Quarians...obviously the Geth had every right to defend themselves and they are the true victims in this. I just don’t think it was as heartless of a decision as people seem to think it was.
As for their continued hostility towards the Geth...It’s annoying when they try to make themselves out as victims in this and make it seem as tho they were hard done by the Geth (they attacked them after all!) but I certainly wouldn’t expect them to be on good terms with the Geth. Again their opinions are not surprising (how often am I going to say that? lol ), given everything that happened and how bad things are for them now it’s understandable they would be bitter about the geth even if this bitterness and hatred is misplaced.

Up until legion the Geth haven’t really tried to have any contact with organics (every scout that went into the Perseus Veil never came back remember? Not surprising considering people’s reactions to AIs andwhat happened with the Quarians but it’s not going to win them popularity contests ) and being that everyone’s first impression of the Geth were from the heretics, of course the Geth are not going to be trusted. On top of that its not a simple matter of the Quarians just finding some random planet to settle. Because of how their immune system is set up it could take hundreds of years for them to adjust to a new planet rather than a few decades to readjust to their old one.

Hoping there is an opportunity to help improve relations between the Quarians and the Geth in ME3. Just so long as it not and insta fix they all of a sudden put aside their differences and become best freinds la de da sunshine and rainbows thing. But having them starting to take the first steps would be awesome.

Also just as a side note: codex is meant to be off common knowledge. Hence why some of the things it says are wrong.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 23 octobre 2010 - 08:57 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Water Dumple wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Water Dumple wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

This has been something that's been bothering me since ME1 so I figured I'd get it off my chest while I'm bored.  How do you people do it?  What is it about the Quarians that engenders sympathy cause I've got nothing.  Any sympathy I might feel for their situation is dashed away by the fact it's their own damn fault and, more importantly, they don't realize it.

Don't the codex and general conversations imply that the Quarians are aware that it's utterly and completely their fault?

They recognize it, but as Shala puts it, they've suffered long enough over the error. Their population is less than that of Texas, most of the galaxy is racist against them, their physical forms are so weak that they require suits to survive, and they have no galactic authority. Suffering for generations is enough punishment for one major mistake, including the whole Sins of the Father irrelevancy. I'd say the Geth don't deserve the prejudice they receive either, and peace between the two sides would be preferable--Though that outcome is probably unlikely.

Actually, they don't. Most quarians you talk to, including Tali, express that trying to shut down the geth was the right decision.

So far, the only quarian to contradict that is Mr. Quib Quib.

From the codex:

The quarians began exhaustive research into creating artificial intelligence so they could learn to escape the bounds of mortality and give their ancestral records true awareness. Unfortunately, the life the quarians created did not accept the same truths they did. The geth destroyed the ancestor databanks when they took over.

In the centuries since they evacuated their homeworld, most quarians have returned to religion in various forms. Many believe the rise of the geth and the destruction of their 'ancestors' were chastisement for arrogantly forsaking the old ways and venerating self-made idols.

Others have a more philosophical outlook, believing their race was indeed arrogant, but no supernatural agency lay behind the geth revolt. Rather, the quarians' actions wrought their own doom. Either way, every quarian would agree that their own hubris cost them their homeworld.

And that would be a perfect example of how the Codex conflicts with the in game story. Tali, the source of that codex entry if I'm remembering correctly, contradicts that. In fact, every other source in the game contradicts that. 

Legion contradicts that. His recording of the Geth asking about souls supports the story that the geth were created accidentally. If you pay attention to the explanations of characters in the game, the Codex is wrong quite a lot, and some of the explanations for where the info comes from is wrong too.

The very nature of the Geth contradicts that. The fact that they are basically linked VIs instead of a single entity like EDI supports the idea that they were created accidentally.

If you comb through the Codex, it contradicts the rest of the game quite a lot, especially the ME2 stuff. ME1 was better, but ME2 was pretty bad.

[Praetor Knight]

All a codex is, is a Canon, which is a commonly agreed aggregate of knowledge on a particular subject by "authorities", not necessarily the most commonly accepted knowledge or the actual truth of what really happened in the past.

Edit: grammar and syntax...

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 23 octobre 2010 - 07:39 .

[Christmas Ape]

Water Dumple wrote...

I'd say the Geth don't deserve the prejudice they receive either

Based on their habit of destroying every ship that passes through the Veil or that the only time they emerged en masse they destroyed three human colonies and invaded the Citadel?

[GuardianAngel470]

Phaedon wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Genocide. I don't think that people understand what it involves.

It's not genocide if you pull the plug before the toasters becomes people.

(And keep in mind that research into making toasters into people is highly restricted by the Council at the time of the events in question.) 

The Quarians had a giant "OH CRAP" moment and pulled the plug just a moment too late.


Neither side has clean hands, neither side is really the villain of the story.  The Quarians and the Geth (not the heretics) are all players in a great and terrible tragedy.

I meant that it the genocide was the geth's fault. I would understand if they would defend themselves, but come on, kill millions and evict them from their homeworld ? Not cool.

The geth have no moral boundaries and that makes them very dangerous. Don't expect the geth to not suddenly break a peace pact and start killing millions again. For them, it's logical. They are going to gain from this. 

I suggest you read my "fan fiction question" thread Phaedon, I go into why I think the geth acted the way they did. Suffice to say that I don't think they were advanced enough to recognize that there was a third option other than extermination and destruction.