375 réponses à ce sujet

[GuardianAngel470]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Water Dumple wrote...
I'd say the Geth don't deserve the prejudice they receive either

Based on their habit of destroying every ship that passes through the Veil or that the only time they emerged en masse they destroyed three human colonies and invaded the Citadel?

Also in my Fan Fiction Question thread. I provide a plausible reason they behave that way, but read it in my fan fiction.

[Christmas Ape]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Christmas Ape wrote...

Water Dumple wrote...
I'd say the Geth don't deserve the prejudice they receive either

Based on their habit of destroying every ship that passes through the Veil or that the only time they emerged en masse they destroyed three human colonies and invaded the Citadel?

Also in my Fan Fiction Question thread. I provide a plausible reason they behave that way, but read it in my fan fiction.

Much as I appreciate your certainty and your self-promotion, I'm curious about why organic life isn't making a reasonable judgement about geth motivations. Blame the attacks on the Heretics all you like, it doesn't change the fact that geth foreign policy is a blend of extreme isolationism and shoot first border security. I think judging them to be a dangerous synthetic species with no regard for organic life is perfectly fair.

[TheBlackBaron]

Christmas Ape wrote...
Much as I appreciate your certainty and your self-promotion, I'm curious about why organic life isn't making a reasonable judgement about geth motivations. Blame the attacks on the Heretics all you like, it doesn't change the fact that geth foreign policy is a blend of extreme isolationism and shoot first border security. I think judging them to be a dangerous synthetic species with no regard for organic life is perfectly fair.

That's something that tends to get overlooked when people start trying to pin everything on the "heretic" geth - sure, they may have been responsible for Eden Prime and the Citadel, but the "orthodox" geth aren't exactly free of bloody hands either.

That's partly why I'm skeptical that any peaceful solution will last. For all of Legion's talk, the geth haven't exactly been the most welcoming species, nor do they appear willing to communicate at all before shooting.

In addition, Legion himself is unique amongst geth, having a much larger number of programs inside the one mobile platform, and being out of contact with the main body of geth for an extended period of time. Just as the heretic geth came to a different conclusion than the orthodox geth, it's entirely possible that Legion has likewise begun thinking different - to what degree is impossible to say - from the rest of the geth. Some of his responses to Shepard, like the one where he asks why Legion integrated his old N7 armor, even suggest this. 

EDIT: By the way, totally unrelated, but your avatar makes me lulz. I was surprised at how...not sucking that show was.

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 23 octobre 2010 - 08:27 .

[Jabarai]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Jabarai wrote...

raist747 wrote...

.....and the whole "inheriting the sins of the father" argument is cruel as well as invalid.

Well, I don't know about that... Who's going to take the blame if they're not?
.....
But generally speaking, having to pay for the bad deeds of one's ancestors is fair and just.

Not really.  Not at all. .....

A Quarian born today has done nothing to make her morally or ethically responsible for what happened 300 years ago (in the ME setting).  She wasn't there, she didn't make the decisions or take the actions that lead to the Morning War.

This is where we disagree, somewhat. I'm thinking a modern Quarian should be completely free of any sort of prejudice and aversion, but still have the decency to acknowledge that what they did was wrong and that they're responsible for putting it right. By that I mean that they should take care of themselves and not rely on others. 

The Quarians are a tight society and I'm certain they're capable of surviving and eventually colonising a suitable planet - that is, if the Reaper threat is ignored for the moment.

Sometimes everyone who can legitimately be blamed is dead and gone, and there's no one left to blame.  It is an artifact of our highly litigious culture, this belief that there must always, always, always be someone to take the blame and pay the price.

And the price is having to make sure innocent people (i.e. other races that had nothing to do with creating an illegal entity) are not compromised for something your own ancestors did. Is that not fair? I don't think it has to do with litigiousness as much as morality and responsibility.


PS: This is an analogy to the real world, at the same time. I hope someone will notice that I'm also advocating a sense of responsibility towards the people that have been wronged by our ancestors - mostly the16th century western civilisation. We've done a lot of damage around the world and the last thing that should happen is that we forget to feel remorse - or worse, forget it ever happened.

I once read the reader's replies on National Geographic commenting the magazine's criticism aimed at those who colonised America. As we all know, several original cultures were torn down and reduced and yet most of the replies cried out how proud they were about it...

[Phaedon]

wulf3n wrote...


The geth were barely sentient and the first act against them was attempted genocide, and you expect them to act with the reasoning and rationale similar to species that spend countless millennia  getting to the same point.

Hmm...that's an interesting point that you make, but how do we know that they were sentient enough to ask philosophical questions and not consider negotiation as a choice ?

How do you know this? what are morals? where do morals stem from? why do humans have them? why is morality so varied among people who live so close?

I consider that 'morals' are a 'moral code', 'ethics'. You don't know these stuff from birth, but we appear to have empathy, the basis that lead to ethics. () I don't think that geth have empathy. Now, I know, there are even some humans with no moral boundaries. And we know how well that turned out. *smokes cigar, uses mirror to observe cybernetic eyes* 

I'm sick of people throwing around the word logical. True logic is a very complicated concept that involves weighing up all options and coming to the most reasonable conclusion. My point, in war the gains are often outweighed by the losses. and what will they gain? what resources do the geth require? they don't need planets! what possible reason could they have to attack other species?

The geth, at least right now, have no apparent reason to start a war. If it does help at some point, they will. I am not saying that it's probalbe that the geth start a war, but we just can't rule out that option.

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
Not cool? The Quarians wanted to destroy every single Geth... what would you have them do? Keeping the Quarian's in their space would be too dangerous because they would keep wanting to reprogram/kill the Geth. This was a war that was either going to have one side completely wiped out if the Quaraians had one or have on madly beaten when the Geth won.

Lets not forget that if the Geth wanted to kill the Quaraians they could. Its not like the council would care if the Quaraians were wiped out. The truth is that the Geth had their hands forced they could either evict the Quarian's or risk their entire race being attacked by the Quaraians forever. They allowed the Quarians to survive because they knew that they deserved to live which is more than the Quarians could ever say.

I can understand war, but not eviction or genocide. And out of the two latter options, the geth chose to pick the second. If you suggest that the geth allowed some Quarians to survive, then that means that they did have the option to just evict them. But still, I don't see how you can't show sympathy for the Quarians after that.

I suggest you read my "fan fiction question" thread Phaedon, I go into why I think the geth acted the way they did. Suffice to say that I don't think they were advanced enough to recognize that there was a third option other than extermination and destruction.

Yup, it's pretty similar to another argument in this post.

[SagaciousTien]

I have read the books as well as play the games, and especially in the second book the Quarian lifestyle is well defined. It's certainly one of looking out for each other. Whether that's due to their current plight or was a habit they had back on their home planet, I'm not sure. But it certainly engendered me towards them. They seem to be paying a very harsh price for their mistake - and this is coupled with the fact that society clearly seems them as scavengers, thieves and second place.

[JaegerBane]

Phaedon wrote...
I meant that it the genocide was the geth's fault.

That's flagrantly absurd. I don't begrudge the quarians for trying to shut the Geth off, but every sentient has the right to defend themselves against an attack, and in this case, the quarians were the ones to cast the first stone. They started the war. They were too weak to win it. Regardless of the morality here, the quarians are at fault.

I would understand if they would defend themselves, but come on, kill millions and evict them from their homeworld ? Not cool.

We don't really know for certain what the specifics of the Morning War were. The Geth may well have judged that they needed to establish breathing space for themselves - a judgement that is entirely understandable from their viewpoint as, mentioned by Legion, they didn't really understand the quarian's actions.

We also don't know who's decision it was for the quarians to abandon their homeworld - whether that was an objective of the Geth, or a decision the quarians made due to the losses they were sustaining. It's entirely possible the Geth may have been intending to fight the quarians to a point where they didn't pose a threat to the geth, and not a millimetre further. The fact that they don't even use the homeworld and they actually expend resources and effort maintaining it doesn't really gel with this simplistic, cardboard-cutout bad-guy reputation the geth have been tarred with.

The geth have no moral boundaries and that makes them very dangerous. Don't expect the geth to not suddenly break a peace pact and start killing millions again. For them, it's logical. They are going to gain from this. 

Oh give me a break. Everything we've been told about the geth makes it bluntly clear they have as many, if not more, moral boundaries as most organic species. Legion was horrified when it found out that the heretics were spying on geth. The very idea of accepting the Reapers help had the orthodox geth completely puzzled. In many ways they are far more pure than many organics, as they genuinely consider pacifisim to be the holy grail.

The only argument you have here is that Legion may have been lying... and there's no evidence to suggest this beyond the sheer fact that it's possible he was. So, um, if paranoia is the only reasoning... I would submit that you need to take a step back and look at the situation for what it actually is.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 23 octobre 2010 - 01:11 .

[CrimsonSpinach]

It's a simple case of Frankenstein's Monster.

[Christmas Ape]

JaegerBane wrote...
Oh give me a break. Everything we've been told about the geth makes it bluntly clear they have as many, if not more, moral boundaries as most organic species.

Then I recommend you try playing some of the Mass Effect franchise, it may surprise you.

Legion was horrified when it found out that the heretics were spying on geth.

Hey, great, they're offended by geth-on-geth espionage. They're positively thrilled to be spying on organic civilization at every opportunity, so their self-righteousness and hypocritical outrage does about as much for me as painting coal black.

The very idea of accepting the Reapers help had the orthodox geth completely puzzled.

The forecasting calculations suggest to the orthodox geth that the Reaper plan is either flawed or pointless. To the heretics, it is either inevitable or the only way to deter the inevitable. There's no moral element to their decision-making. It's a pure numbers game.

In many ways they are far more pure than many organics, as they genuinely consider pacifisim to be the holy grail.

Pull the other one, it's got bells on. Ships that cross the Perseus Veil are destroyed, excepting the one they turned into husks. Is there some new way to define pacifism that involves killing everyone who crosses your path, or are you just completely insane?

So, um, if paranoia is the only reasoning... I would submit that you need to take a step back and look at the situation for what it actually is.

I feel much the same about your wishful thinking.

Modifié par Christmas Ape, 23 octobre 2010 - 01:14 .

[JaegerBane]

Christmas Ape wrote...
Then I recommend you try playing some of the Mass Effect franchise, it may surprise you.

And what exactly is this supposed to mean?

Hey, great, they're offended by geth-on-geth espionage. They're positively thrilled to be spying on organic civilization at every opportunity, so their self-righteousness and hypocritical outrage does about as much for me as painting coal black.

The assertion was that they had no moral boundaries. I pointed out a case which clearly pointed out that they did. Banging on about how they spy on other species is irrelevant. It's not like spying on other species is something unique to the geth, for crying out loud.

The forecasting calculations suggest to the orthodox geth that the Reaper plan is either flawed or pointless. To the heretics, it is either inevitable or the only way to deter the inevitable. There's no moral element to their decision-making. It's a pure numbers game.

What do you actually think moral boundaries are? They protect against actions deemed by the whole to be wrong. Calling it a 'pure numbers game' only advertises you haven't understood the point behind what Legion was saying.

Pull the other one, it's got bells on. Ships that cross the Perseus Veil are destroyed, excepting the one they turned into husks. Is there some new way to define pacifism that involves killing everyone who crosses your path, or are you just completely insane?

If you actually started reading what I'm posting rather than flying off on a tangent, you'd understand what I'm saying. I'm not saying the geth are pacifists. I'm saying that their intention is to move towards pacifisim. It's not galactic domination, destroy everyone else or own the most credits.

Yes, they have wiped out every incursion into their space. Given the current situation (and how the galactic community regard the geth), it's not really surprising they adopt this approach. They have no allies to call upon. They can't fall back to anywhere. They have no other option but to stay where they are. If your own logic were correct, they would have invaded the rest of the galaxy by now.

I feel much the same about your wishful thinking.

So.... you're actually claiming the sheer fact Legion may be lying is possible is reason enough to disregard everything he says? Do you honestly believe that this a rational stance?

This isn't wishful thinking. This is simply observing the evidence in the story. You should try it - it might put this ridiculous idea that the geth are homicidal maniacs who... uh... just haven't gotten around to murdering everyone yet into an interesting light.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Phaedon wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
Not cool? The Quarians wanted to destroy every single Geth... what would you have them do? Keeping the Quarian's in their space would be too dangerous because they would keep wanting to reprogram/kill the Geth. This was a war that was either going to have one side completely wiped out if the Quaraians had one or have on madly beaten when the Geth won.

Lets not forget that if the Geth wanted to kill the Quaraians they could. Its not like the council would care if the Quaraians were wiped out. The truth is that the Geth had their hands forced they could either evict the Quarian's or risk their entire race being attacked by the Quaraians forever. They allowed the Quarians to survive because they knew that they deserved to live which is more than the Quarians could ever say.

I can understand war, but not eviction or genocide. And out of the two latter options, the geth chose to pick the second. If you suggest that the geth allowed some Quarians to survive, then that means that they did have the option to just evict them. But still, I don't see how you can't show sympathy for the Quarians after that.

Eviction was the only choice the Geth had that would secure their people and allow the Quarians to survive the war. If you remember what Legion said on the flotila "Every time the creators thought they had an advantage they've attacked 100% of the time." So right there is why the Geth couldn't allow the Quarians to stay in the system because the moment the Quarians thought they'd have another chance they'd attack the Geth again.

I do feel bad for the Quarian's living situation but my sympathy goes away very quickly when all they want to do is destroy the Geth, its the same knee jerk response that their ancestors had. They haven't leared what there mistake was. There mistake wasn't creating the Geth it was trying to destroy them. If they could come to terms with that and honestly want peace with the Geth than their situation would be improved because the Geth would let them back.

(Also I wouldn't be suprised if in ME3 when we finally get a chance to go into Geth space to try and get the Geth to join our side if we found out that there are Quarians who are living on the homeworld right now. Possibly the decendants of the Quarians who thought that war with the Geth were wrong. Which would be anouther reason why the Geth would be cleaning the planet of toxins.)

A few posts ago someone started talking about how the Geth are dangerous isolatonist well lets think about why that is. The first organic race they knew tried to destroy them for no reason other than the fact that they became sentient. Then once the war was over the Citadel sent a fleet of war ships and parked them outside the Persius Veil with their guns ready to shot any Geth that left Geth space.... So I ask you what in there experience would lead them or anyone sane to believe that the organics would want to talk to them? They know that organics have in irrational fear of their kind and think that there very existance is evil and deserves to be destroyed.

Of course they're going to be isolationists!!!!

[Saremei]

People... WAKE UP. There was no unprovoked quarian aggression. There was Quarian response to Geth questioning their conditions that would be considered slavery if they were not machines. That questioning leads to uprisings and coordinated war. They sought to avoid allowing the Geth to become stronger and more coordinated before said war started. They were too late is all.



It was not unprovoked, it was justified. They only acted too late.

[sanadawarrior]

Saremei wrote...

People... WAKE UP. There was no unprovoked quarian aggression. There was Quarian response to Geth questioning their conditions that would be considered slavery if they were not machines. That questioning leads to uprisings and coordinated war. They sought to avoid allowing the Geth to become stronger and more coordinated before said war started. They were too late is all.

It was not unprovoked, it was justified. They only acted too late.

Once the geth achieved sentience it was slavery even if they were machines.

[Phaedon]

That's flagrantly absurd. I don't begrudge the quarians for trying to shut the Geth off, but every sentient has the right to defend themselves against an attack, and in this case, the quarians were the ones to cast the first stone. They started the war. They were too weak to win it. Regardless of the morality here, the quarians are at fault.

Wait, war ? Why does everyone keep saying that ? They tried to turn them off (possibly so they could think what they should do), not grab a pole out of their suits and beat them to death with it. I personally believe that that turning them off until a decision could be made would be the most responsible think to do? What do you think that the Quarians should do instead ?

We don't really know for certain what the specifics of the Morning War were. The Geth may well have judged that they needed to establish breathing space for themselves - a judgement that is entirely understandable from their viewpoint as, mentioned by Legion, they didn't really understand the quarian's actions.

We also don't know who's decision it was for the quarians to abandon their homeworld - whether that was an objective of the Geth, or a decision the quarians made due to the losses they were sustaining. It's entirely possible the Geth may have been intending to fight the quarians to a point where they didn't pose a threat to the geth, and not a millimetre further. The fact that they don't even use the homeworld and they actually expend resources and effort maintaining it doesn't really gel with this simplistic, cardboard-cutout bad-guy reputation the geth have been tarred with.

You do have a point there.

Oh give me a break. Everything we've been told about the geth makes it bluntly clear they have as many, if not more, moral boundaries as most organic species. Legion was horrified when it found out that the heretics were spying on geth. The very idea of accepting the Reapers help had the orthodox geth completely puzzled. In many ways they are far more pure than many organics, as they genuinely consider pacifisim to be the holy grail.

The only argument you have here is that Legion may have been lying... and there's no evidence to suggest this beyond the sheer fact that it's possible he was. So, um, if paranoia is the only reasoning... I would submit that you need to take a step back and look at the situation for what it actually is.

I don't see how they can have developed ethics or empathy, they are machines. Legion could have been surprised because the heretics spying on the geth would be illogical.

Eviction was the only choice the Geth had that would secure their people and allow the Quarians to survive the war. If you remember what Legion said on the flotila "Every time the creators thought they had an advantage they've attacked 100% of the time." So right there is why the Geth couldn't allow the Quarians to stay in the system because the moment the Quarians thought they'd have another chance they'd attack the Geth again.

Most wars are like this. And that's logical, since they are defending their motherland. Almost none end with a genocide.

I do feel bad for the Quarian's living situation but my sympathy goes away very quickly when all they want to do is destroy the Geth, its the same knee jerk response that their ancestors had. They haven't leared what there mistake was. There mistake wasn't creating the Geth it was trying to destroy them. If they could come to terms with that and honestly want peace with the Geth than their situation would be improved because the Geth would let them back. 

I may be mistaken, but the average quarian joe just wants their homeworld back. Living in a tightly-packed ship in space is not the best place to raise your children. Out of the whole flotilla only that hardcore admiral wanted to attack the geth. And come on, how can you not feel sorry for them ? They built some robots to help them with things (like everyone else has [mechs]) and they slowly develop them. At some point, their intelligence happens to be great enough for them to be considered sentient, and the Quarians freak out. They want to turn off the geth to see what they can do, and the geth attack them. Millions/Billions die, both soldiers and civilians, some defending their home and some trying to save their family. They ask the help of the Council, who put on their trollmasks and kick them off the Citadel as well.

A few posts ago someone started talking about how the Geth are dangerous isolatonist well lets think about why that is. The first organic race they knew tried to destroy them for no reason other than the fact that they became sentient. Then once the war was over the Citadel sent a fleet of war ships and parked them outside the Persius Veil with their guns ready to shot any Geth that left Geth space.... So I ask you what in there experience would lead them or anyone sane to believe that the organics would want to talk to them? They know that organics have in irrational fear of their kind and think that there very existance is evil and deserves to be destroyed.

Of course they're going to be isolationists!!!!

The geth being isolationists doesn't mean anything, but what's wrong with the Council sending a fleet to patrol the 'borders' of the Veil ? If I remember correctly, they believe that the geth attacked Eden Prime and killed half of the colony. I think that it makes sense for a citadel nation to consider them 'insane genocidal robots' at this point. 

Modifié par Phaedon, 23 octobre 2010 - 03:05 .

[Phaedon]

sanadawarrior wrote...

Saremei wrote...

People... WAKE UP. There was no unprovoked quarian aggression. There was Quarian response to Geth questioning their conditions that would be considered slavery if they were not machines. That questioning leads to uprisings and coordinated war. They sought to avoid allowing the Geth to become stronger and more coordinated before said war started. They were too late is all.

It was not unprovoked, it was justified. They only acted too late.

Once the geth achieved sentience it was slavery even if they were machines.

I believe that that is the reason that the quarians tried to turn them off ?

[GodWood]

sanadawarrior wrote...
Once the geth achieved sentience it was slavery even if they were machines.

And what do you suggest the quarians should of done then hmm?

[Christmas Ape]

JaegerBane wrote...
And what exactly is this supposed to mean?

That "everything you've been shown" about the geth appears to come from some source that wasn't published by Bioware, as it bears no resemblance to anything I'm familiar with.

The assertion was that they had no moral boundaries. I pointed out a case which clearly pointed out that they did. Banging on about how they spy on other species is irrelevant. It's not like spying on other species is something unique to the geth, for crying out loud.

That's not a moral boundary, it's naked self-interest.

What do you actually think moral boundaries are? They protect against actions deemed by the whole to be wrong. Calling it a 'pure numbers game' only advertises you haven't understood the point behind what Legion was saying.

Standards of behavior which are held as important, or even vital. Not "things you're very happy to be doing but don't want done to you". By these standards, the Purgatory convict who sends you an email is well within moral boundaries. I mean, he doesn't want you to carve your name into his skin. That's a boundary.
And honestly? I think you're misunderstanding the difference between the geth factions. A single digit difference in a calculation's result. Not even a digit arrived at by error, but through slightly different calculation. The Heretics aren't even considered wrong - they have a different opinion, as best the geth can express it. And they just let them go. "Go ahead and exterminate all organic life if you want, guys, but...leave us out of it." That, to you, is the act of a "more moral" species?

If you actually started reading what I'm posting rather than flying off on a tangent, you'd understand what I'm saying. I'm not saying the geth are pacifists. I'm saying that their intention is to move towards pacifisim. It's not galactic domination, destroy everyone else or own the most credits.

Just via the "killing everyone who crosses your path" route to pacifism.
The evidence for this move: Legion said so.
The evidence against this move: Three centuries of geth interaction with organics.
If the krogan started telling everybody they were interested in peaceful coexistence in the process of annexing Lusia, would you still expect us to take it seriously?

Yes, they have wiped out every incursion into their space. Given the current situation (and how the galactic community regard the geth), it's not really surprising they adopt this approach. They have no allies to call upon. They can't fall back to anywhere. They have no other option but to stay where they are.

The geth, by their own statements, occupy nearly 'cold' stations in the
vast dark spaces between solar systems. The odds of anyone encountering
them, even in the relatively limited amount of space found across the Veil, are infintesimal. In order to destroy these potentially disastrous merchant freighters and scout ships, the geth would have to seek them out, track their FTL trails, then ambush and destroy them. That's not panicked self-defense in the face of an encroaching invader whom you must otherwise "fall back" across an entire arm of the galaxy. That's paranoia.

If your own logic were correct, they would have invaded the rest of the galaxy by now.

Sorry, is that dictated by the logic that the geth are not a hyper-moral machine race untouched by the petty hatreds of flesh-beings given they only seem to object to things that harm geth, or by the logic that hunting down and killing people is a sh---y way to pursue pacifism? I don't think I suggested them as would-be conquerors; I just dismiss your fluffy kitten-hugging "pure" geth as being completely unrooted in reality.

So.... you're actually claiming the sheer fact Legion may be lying is possible is reason enough to disregard everything he says? Do you honestly believe that this a rational stance?

I'm stating that if Legion has directly said every point you've put forward, it is putting forward opinions in direct contravention of known facts. It may be mistaken, it may be intentionally deceiving you, but it is not offering 100% reliable information however it got there.

This isn't wishful thinking. This is simply observing the evidence in the story.

I'll ask directly: what story? Because this 'evidence' is not contained on a DVD with the words 'Mass Effect' written on it.

You should try it - it might put this ridiculous idea that the geth are homicidal maniacs who... uh... just haven't gotten around to murdering everyone yet into an interesting light.

Who said homicidal maniacs? The geth collective is coldly rational, rational enough to be homicidal as a matter of policy rather than madness. I don't think they want to exterminate organic life, and if you'd stop cramming those words into my mouth I'd stop having to spit them out, but I do think they would countenance the extermination of organic life in a heartbeat if we were determined to be detrimental to geth existence. They will never be fond of us, never share a common bond of enemies faced shoulder to shoulder, never value sacrifice for their sake. Geth existance will always be geth-centric.

Many people on this very forum have suggested it would be better to fall to the Reapers than embrace Cerberus methods. Can you actually see the geth making that stance? They refused once already.

[FuturePasTimeCE]

i realized that too... they deserve no sympathy... they caused their own problems, aswell for problems for everyone else who wasn't involved in their problems. they play the victim role, when they victimized themselves... trying to put people on a guilt trip with their pilgrimage crap.

[GodWood]

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...
i realized that too... they deserve no sympathy... they caused their own problems, aswell for problems for everyone else who wasn't involved in their problems. they play the victim role, when they victimized themselves... trying to put people on a guilt trip with their pilgrimage crap.

They are victims to events that happened 300 years ago.
You can't possibly think its entirely their fault?

[Phaedon]

Also, I believe that Legion said that it would be foolish to apply the 'moral standards' of organics on geth.

[sanadawarrior]

GodWood wrote...

sanadawarrior wrote...
Once the geth achieved sentience it was slavery even if they were machines.

And what do you suggest the quarians should of done then hmm?

I was simply comenting on what he wrote as I took away from it that even if they had sentience, the fact that they were machines would mean it was not slavery.

The question however is tricky as hindsight is 20/20 and as an outsider looking in I can say "well that was a mistake" but to tell you the truth I'm not sure what I would have done in their place.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Phaedon the Quarians weren't trying to shut the geth down by gently pushing a button they were trying to shut them down by destroying them. Both Tali and Legion state that the Quarian 'Attacked' the Geth first and the Geth responded. As Legion states "First they ignored us, then they tried to reprogram us, then they attacked us." There was no temporary shut down the figure things out there was a destroy all Geth and then figure things out.



As I said I do feel sorry for the Quarians who are alive now because they're being punished for their ancestors mistakes but most still see destroying the Geth as the only option of getting back to the homeworld. Even Tali (who I love alot) is a putz when it comes to the Geth/Homeworld thing. Qwib-Qwib seems to be the only one who sees the right path for his people. 1) Don't fight a war you can't win 2) End hostility towards the Geth to either go back to the homeworld or find a new planet.

[DPSSOC]

Saremei wrote...

People... WAKE UP. There was no unprovoked quarian aggression. There was Quarian response to Geth questioning their conditions that would be considered slavery if they were not machines. That questioning leads to uprisings and coordinated war. They sought to avoid allowing the Geth to become stronger and more coordinated before said war started. They were too late is all.

It was not unprovoked, it was justified. They only acted too late.

I don't think you understand what unprovoked means.  Any pre-emptive action is unprovoked, that's what makes it pre-empitve rather than retalitory.  Provocation requires action, either the issuance of a verbal threat or a direct physical threat (i.e. someone threatening to beat you to death or somebody attacking you).  The Quarians were reacting to the threat of possible action.

Let's put this in human terms.  A long while back I read an article that mentioned chimps had been documented using more advanced tools.  Where as before they had simply used sticks to get at insects they were now documented using sharp sticks to skewer birds, lizards, and small mammals.  Now if someone were to claim that if chimps continue to progress in this manner they could eventually pose a threat to mankind and therefore we must destroy the chimps, would they be wrong?  No, their action would still be unprovoked but not unwarranted.

The Geth had done nothing, but the Quarians knew that in the future they might so they took action to prevent that.  Their actions may have been justified but they were still unprovoked.

And I really want to clarify I don't lack sympathy for the Quarians because of what they've done, I lack sympathy for them because they're playing the victim and completely ignoring (if not denying) their part in manufacturing their current situation.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 23 octobre 2010 - 03:24 .

[FuturePasTimeCE]

GodWood wrote...

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...
i realized that too... they deserve no sympathy... they caused their own problems, aswell for problems for everyone else who wasn't involved in their problems. they play the victim role, when they victimized themselves... trying to put people on a guilt trip with their pilgrimage crap.

They are victims to events that happened 300 years ago.
You can't possibly think its entirely their fault?

it is their faults.

[sanadawarrior]

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...

GodWood wrote...

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...
i realized that too... they deserve no sympathy... they caused their own problems, aswell for problems for everyone else who wasn't involved in their problems. they play the victim role, when they victimized themselves... trying to put people on a guilt trip with their pilgrimage crap.

They are victims to events that happened 300 years ago.
You can't possibly think its entirely their fault?

it is their faults.

If one of your ancestors did something 300 years ago that you were still being looked down for today would it be your fault?