FuturePasTimeCE wrote... i realized that too... they deserve no sympathy... they caused their own problems, aswell for problems for everyone else who wasn't involved in their problems. they play the victim role, when they victimized themselves... trying to put people on a guilt trip with their pilgrimage crap.
They are victims to events that happened 300 years ago.You can't possibly think its entirely their fault?
it is their faults.
They didn't do it, their ancestor's did. Explain how its their fault.
Phaedon the Quarians weren't trying to shut the geth down by gently pushing a button they were trying to shut them down by destroying them. Both Tali and Legion state that the Quarian 'Attacked' the Geth first and the Geth responded. As Legion states "First they ignored us, then they tried to reprogram us, then they attacked us." There was no temporary shut down the figure things out there was a destroy all Geth and then figure things out.
By repeatedly tweaking the geth's systems, the quarians had inadvertently allowed the geth to evolve into anArtificial Intelligence, thus becoming sentient. In response, the quarian government ordered an immediate termination of all geth programs.
A video of Legion or Tali saying that would be helpful though.
As I said I do feel sorry for the Quarians who are alive now because they're being punished for their ancestors mistakes but most still see destroying the Geth as the only option of getting back to the homeworld. Even Tali (who I love alot) is a putz when it comes to the Geth/Homeworld thing. Qwib-Qwib seems to be the only one who sees the right path for his people. 1) Don't fight a war you can't win 2) End hostility towards the Geth to either go back to the homeworld or find a new planet.
I dunno, I have played Tali's loyalty mission lately, and most of the quarians were either afraid they would get crushed or they wanted to get their homeworld back. I only remember that idiotic admiral promoting the actual war. Honestly though, 2) is the way to go.
sanadawarrior wrote... If one of your ancestors did something 300 years ago that you were still being looked down for today would it be your fault?
If their action was still effecting people today and in the whole 300 years my family had not done anything to correct it or mitigate it's effects...yeah.
The Quarians have chosen to do nothing they've not settled down (don't give me the old "Well the Council..." line they could have settled outside Citadel Space), nor made any serious attempt to improve their lot in life, they've accepted that they are victims and everyone's to blame for their situation but them.
sanadawarrior wrote... If one of your ancestors did something 300 years ago that you were still being looked down for today would it be your fault?
If their action was still effecting people today and in the whole 300 years my family had not done anything to correct it or mitigate it's effects...yeah.
The Quarians have chosen to do nothing they've not settled down (don't give me the old "Well the Council..." line they could have settled outside Citadel Space), nor made any serious attempt to improve their lot in life, they've accepted that they are victims and everyone's to blame for their situation but them.
I think you misunderstood me, Im not sayin it isn't the quarian races fault that they are looked down upon by other races (it is partly for the reasons you stated), im saying it isn't the current generation of quarians fault that their ancestors made the geth that then turned on them.
Modifié par sanadawarrior, 23 octobre 2010 - 03:53 .
sanadawarrior wrote... I think you misunderstood me, Im not sayin it isn't the quarian races fault that they are looked down upon by other races (it is partly for the reasons you stated), im saying it isn't the current generation of quarians fault that their ancestors made the geth that then turned on them.
Yes but what I was trying to say is that the current generation is at fault because they've done nothing to correct the mistakes of their ancestors, no Quarian has as far as I'm aware (though not sure how they could). They're not responsible for what was done, but they do have a responsibility to make it right. That they haven't is their fault.
I couldn't find a vid on Youtube where Tali is talking about the Quarian/Geth war from ME1 but I did find Legion telling Shepard about it
Hmm...thanks for that. Even though 'attacked' could be a metaphor, it sounds like the Quarians failed to turn them off, and started trying to physically hurt them. Even though I see why geth wanted to defend themselves, I believe that they took it too far. Note that I don't have anything against the geth, in fact, I think that they will be willing to have peace with the Quarians.
So yeah, it was an error made by both sides.
I know that you feel sympathy for the Quarians, but I don't get why others don't. Regardless if they made a mistake, we are judging them too hard. Since most of the members of these forums relatives (as in grandparents) were lucky enough not have been victims of a genocide, I see why the whole situation is being underestimated. What people should consider though, is that whole families were killed that day, a whole nation was rendered homeless, and when they asked help from their allies, they turned their back on them. Damn, this sounds awfully familiar.
I agree Phaedon, it seems that alot of people who side with the Geth care very little for the Quarians and those who side with the Quarians don't care at all for the Geth and that just isn't right. They are both victims of their situation, the quarians now are victims of there past yet they don't try to better there place and the Geth are hated because of what they are yet they seem too comfortable simply being alone. If they had sent Legion-type platforms out to talk to the other races centuries ago I think that the galaxy would see them differently.
Hopefully when ME3 comes out we can bring a small section of the Migrant Fleet into Geth space and let these two sides talk about things. What I loved about Legion was the way he could disect your emotional fear of the Geth with just a few words of logic. I want both of these races to have peace and live together because at the end of the day they both know what its like to be hated for who you are.
I agree Phaedon, it seems that alot of people who side with the Geth care very little for the Quarians and those who side with the Quarians don't care at all for the Geth and that just isn't right. They are both victims of their situation, the quarians now are victims of there past yet they don't try to better there place and the Geth are hated because of what they are yet they seem too comfortable simply being alone. If they had sent Legion-type platforms out to talk to the other races centuries ago I think that the galaxy would see them differently.
Hopefully when ME3 comes out we can bring a small section of the Migrant Fleet into Geth space and let these two sides talk about things. What I loved about Legion was the way he could disect your emotional fear of the Geth with just a few words of logic. I want both of these races to have peace and live together because at the end of the day they both know what its like to be hated for who you are.
That's how it should be done, and ME3 is a perfect chance for this to happen. Both the geth and the quarians, unlike the Council races, are aware of the Reaper threat. It would be stupid for them to continue fighting while the the Reapers are about to kill everyone.
I agree Phaedon, it seems that alot of people who side with the Geth care very little for the Quarians and those who side with the Quarians don't care at all for the Geth and that just isn't right....
That's the impression I've got, too. It's really as if some people see it morally challenging even trying to understand both sides of a quarrel, and then try to ease the dissonance with reasoning. More often that not, I've concluded, it results in unsatisfactory argumentation...
Hopefully when ME3 comes out we can bring a small section of the Migrant Fleet into Geth space and let these two sides talk about things. What I loved about Legion was the way he could disect your emotional fear of the Geth with just a few words of logic.....
Here's Tali's version of the Quarian/Geth war I know we already went past this part of the discussion but it took me a long time to find it and I want people to hear it lol
I agree Phaedon, it seems that alot of people who side with the Geth care very little for the Quarians and those who side with the Quarians don't care at all for the Geth and that just isn't right....
That's the impression I've got, too. It's really as if some people see it morally challenging even trying to understand both sides of a quarrel, and then try to ease the dissonance with reasoning. More often that not, I've concluded, it results in unsatisfactory argumentation...
I support both sides. Both have made mistakes--The Quarians with the initial reaction and the Geth ongoing by being provocative toward organics--But if both sides had a better understanding of the other, they could potentially resolve it. I also have to credit both races, since originally I thought the Quarians were the best ME race, but realized that they wouldn't be half as interesting without the presence of the Geth.
Hopefully when ME3 comes out we can bring a small section of the Migrant Fleet into Geth space and let these two sides talk about things. What I loved about Legion was the way he could disect your emotional fear of the Geth with just a few words of logic.....
Yes, my hopes exactly!
Hopefully that will be possible, but I don't see it happening very easily, given that making peace between two entire races (separated by the organic/mechanical difference no less) is no small task.
If one of your ancestors did something 300 years ago that you were still being looked down for today would it be your fault?
If you, 300 years later, were still defending your ancestor's decision and spoke of repeating their actions (renewed war against the Geth in this case), wouldn't you be taking ownership of the original incident?
If one of your ancestors did something 300 years ago that you were still being looked down for today would it be your fault?
If you, 300 years later, were still defending your ancestor's decision and spoke of repeating their actions (renewed war against the Geth in this case), wouldn't you be taking ownership of the original incident?
And who is doing that exactly ? A single admiral ? All the quarians want is to go back to their homeworld.
If one of your ancestors did something 300 years ago that you were still being looked down for today would it be your fault?
If you, 300 years later, were still defending your ancestor's decision and spoke of repeating their actions (renewed war against the Geth in this case), wouldn't you be taking ownership of the original incident?
And who is doing that exactly ? A single admiral ? All the quarians want is to go back to their homeworld.
If my memory of Quarian politics is correct than each Admiral is voted on by the member of the fleet. If I'm correct than that means that roughly 3/5 of the fleet is in favor of retaking the homeworld through either war or Geth hacking (Tali's dad, Xan, and the war hound admiral) 1/5 of the fleet is undecided (Tali's aunt) and 1/5 favors peace/finding a new world (Qwib Qwib) If I'm wrong about the way the admirals are chossen than please let me know.
It's easy to sit in the Internet equivalent of an ivory tower and say, "If my toaster/computer/whatever suddenly became sentient, I would treat it as a friend and set it free and ask for permission to study it."
In reality, I think about 99.5% of the population would freak the **** out and react exactly as the quarians did, and if they didn't, then somebody else would.
I have no doubt that if humanity had been in the Quarian's shoes, our species would probably have reacted in much the same way. It would be yet another costly mistake in humanity's history, right up there with the First & Second World Wars.
But just because we can understand why the Quarians overreacted the way they did, doesn't mean they are more deserving of our sympathy than the Geth. The Quarians were the victims of a tragedy beyond our understanding; billions of lives snuffed out and being forced to abandon their homeworld. They've experienced an apocalypse. But that apocalypse was wrought by Quarian hands. The Geth were just the instrument of it.
Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 23 octobre 2010 - 05:44 .
And who is doing that exactly ? A single admiral ? All the quarians want is to go back to their homeworld.
Going back to the homeworld is independant of how to accomplish that and/or attitudes towards the Geth. The wiki states that Quarians who are sympathetic to the Geth are the minority.
Aedan_Cousland wrote... I have no doubt that if humanity had been in the Quarian's shoes, our species would probably have reacted in much the same way. It would be yet another costly mistake in humanity's history, right up there with the First & Second World Wars.
But just because we can understand why the Quarians overreacted the way they did, doesn't mean they are more deserving of our sympathy than the Geth. The Quarians were the victims of a tragedy beyond our understanding; billions of lives snuffed out and being forced to abandon their homeworld. They've experienced an apocalypse. But that apocalypse was wrought by Quarian hands. The Geth were just the instrument of it.
Last I checked, a species that has undergone their own apocalypse and are now living in the space-age equivalent of third-world conditions is worth more sympathy than the victors of a war that left them with their continued existence and a sizeable chunk of the galaxy.
Seriously, I can understand liking the geth - I like Legion too, he's one of my favorite new characters in ME2 - but what on earth is there even to sympathize with them about?
Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 23 octobre 2010 - 06:27 .
I can't sympathize with the species that is reviled by every other council race and forced into isolation if they want to live peacefully? That was attacked the first time they tried to make contact? That was only defending themselves?
That's like saying I can't feel sympathize with the Quarians because hey. They still want to destroy the Geth.
...It's possible to sympathize with both.
That said I'd take the Geth over the Quarians if push came to shove. I'd like to have both but I'd make due.
What the hell makes Tali an expert? She's an engineer, not an A.I. specialist.
You are kidding, right? Yes she is an engineer... but what kind of engineer? Besides the obvious field experience, which few if any other Quarians would have (and certainly not to the same degree), she knew enough about the Geth to be able to salvage the memory core in ME1, and her credentials regarding knowing which parts would be safe to bring back were not questioned. If she was a botany engineer, or a civil engineer, or an aeronautics engineer, wouldn't that have been brought up in the trial?
She hacks Geth routinely without having any clue about AI's? Really?
Ryzaki wrote... I can't sympathize with the species that is reviled by every other council race and forced into isolation if they want to live peacefully? That was attacked the first time they tried to make contact? That was only defending themselves?
I'm not saying you can't, I'm saying I don't understand it.
It's basically saying, "Oh, you poor, poor geth. Did those mean old quarians attack you?" as the geth assume control of former quarian space while the survivors are high-tailing it out of there on the Migrant Fleet.
Frankly, the geth are in a stronger position than a number of other species in the galaxy. Not to mention that their revilement and isolationism is pretty much self-induced, given their propensity for tracking and blasting with no questions asked any ship entering the Veil (and those are the lucky ones).
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