375 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Why would it be? Self-defense is no crime.

But even you have to admit that the Geth went far beyond self-defense: 99% and more of the Quarian population was killed, and kept being killed well after the Quarian government and military (the instigators) were unable to beat the Geth. The Civilian populace, wiped out to a child bar those who fled?

It stopped being self-defense well before then.

So the whole bit with the heretical geth, and the fact Quarians shoot first and ask questions later not exist or something? I could've sworn it was in my game. 

[Ryzaki]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Geth have certainly grown and evolved, and even increased in number, but without any sign or evidence of Geth population replacement, Shand's point is true: the Geth today include the same geth who genocided the Quarians.

Incorrect, just because the Geth today can access the data that the Geth from 300 years ago experienced doesn't make them the same. Legion explains it while he's talking Philosophy with Shepard, he talks about how organics ask questions and how they try to figure them out. Legion states that the Geth already know some of these questions. One was about death, Legion states that when they die their memories are archived.... did you read that he said when they DIE there memories are archived.

The thing with Legion is his huge points are very sudbtle. Legion sees the Geth as able to die but in a way they don't die because their memories can be stored and accessed when needed. So when new Geth are created they are like a blank slate and it begins to experience things on its own but is able to access memories of Geth who died to learn. So to say that they are the same Geth would be like saying we are who our ancestors are because we learn about them from history books or old videos.

This is why I hate getting Legion so late. All these gems...just wasted. 

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Shandepared wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

 Unless you are trying to say that Admiral Xen spent the last two years doing field work studing the Geth and just got back?

How do you know she didn't? Whether she did or not, why are you so quick to dismiss her theories? You have after all seen two different examples of her theories being employed by other factions and each time it worked. Yet apparently if Xen does it won't work.

Since you clearly didn't see my response I will post it again.


Did you forget that the Quarians already tried to alter the Geth 300 years ago before they attacked? That was when the Quarians had limitless resources to use and were working on Geth that had programs that they had intimate knowledge of and they still couldn't alter the Geth. Yet you believe that now the Quarians with virtually no resources at all (And the tech they do have is second-hand) can somehow find a way to alter the Geth who now have had 300 years to improve their software and who the Quarians know little to nothing about save for chucks they get here and there?

I think you have too much faith in a crazy person. (I call her crazy because disecting toys is a sure sign of some type of phycosis)

Also if you're talking about Overlord you're forgetting one thing aren't you... Legion wasn't affected. Now why is that? Maybe because he's a part of the Core Geth and the ones being tested on were the Heretics the reason why that's important is because Geth become more advance with the more being who comprize them. The Heritics were 5% of the Geth that makes them a small fraction as intelligent and as advanced as the Core Geth who were clearly too advanced for Overlord because he was built by the more advanced faction.

[TheBlackBaron]

Ryzaki wrote...
Did you miss the whole Heretics conversation? Or the fact that most people will shoot a Geth on sight? 

See my previous post on people that try to pin everything on the "heretic" geth. The regular ones aren't exactly bloodless either.

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

How do you know she didn't? Whether she did or not, why are you so quick to dismiss her theories? You have after all seen two different examples of her theories being employed by other factions and each time it worked. Yet apparently if Xen does it won't work.

Because the main flaw in dealing with the Geth right from the start was underestimating their strength in numbers. This was shown in their ascending to AI's and in the failure of the kill code. The Geth, with much better data, are not sure how well the reprogramming option will hold.

Working with considerably less data, why would Xen's plan be likely to succeed?

In what way isn't she making the same mistake as her ancestors?

Furthermore, there is not even any remote implication that Admiral Xen has recently returned. Any such field work would be putting an Admiral at high risk and as such be exceedingly unlikely. What do you think the is, Star Trek? (Even there, Kirk got demoted for similar activity....)

Furthermore, if she was such an expert, why wasn't she working with Tali's father? He was an expert on the Geth and actively studying them.

On the other hand ,a politician getting caught up in such a scheme without the real knowledge or expertise to properly understand the risks is very believable. That happens all the time, even in otherwise good governments.

[Dean_the_Young]

Ryzaki wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Why would it be? Self-defense is no crime.

But even you have to admit that the Geth went far beyond self-defense: 99% and more of the Quarian population was killed, and kept being killed well after the Quarian government and military (the instigators) were unable to beat the Geth. The Civilian populace, wiped out to a child bar those who fled?

It stopped being self-defense well before then.

So the whole bit with the heretical geth, and the fact Quarians shoot first and ask questions later not exist or something? I could've sworn it was in my game. 

Please rephrase: the existence of the Heretic split centuries after has no relevance to what happened then, and that members of the Quarian race (not even the entire species: members!) tried to kill Geth does not mean that continuing to kill all Quarians after those involved were defeated remained self defense.

If you and your siblings grouped together to kill me and mine, self-defense would not cover us killing your group until it maintained no threat, killing the rest of your siblings who no longer posed a threat, and then going out and killing your parents, you children, your cousins, their cousins, and everyone related to you except for those who fled fast enough.

Self-defense would only cover killing the attackers until they stopped being an active threat.

[Ryzaki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Why would it be? Self-defense is no crime.

But even you have to admit that the Geth went far beyond self-defense: 99% and more of the Quarian population was killed, and kept being killed well after the Quarian government and military (the instigators) were unable to beat the Geth. The Civilian populace, wiped out to a child bar those who fled?

It stopped being self-defense well before then.

So the whole bit with the heretical geth, and the fact Quarians shoot first and ask questions later not exist or something? I could've sworn it was in my game. 

Please rephrase: the existence of the Heretic split centuries after has no relevance to what happened then, and that members of the Quarian race (not even the entire species: members!) tried to kill Geth does not mean that continuing to kill all Quarians after those involved were defeated remained self defense.

If you and your siblings grouped together to kill me and mine, self-defense would not cover us killing your group until it maintained no threat, killing the rest of your siblings who no longer posed a threat, and then going out and killing your parents, you children, your cousins, their cousins, and everyone related to you except for those who fled fast enough.

Self-defense would only cover killing the attackers until they stopped being an active threat.

Right and the Quarians stopped being a threat...when exactly? 

[General User]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If you and your siblings grouped together to kill me and mine, self-defense would not cover us killing your group until it maintained no threat, killing the rest of your siblings who no longer posed a threat, and then going out and killing your parents, you children, your cousins, their cousins, and everyone related to you except for those who fled fast enough.

Self-defense would only cover killing the attackers until they stopped being an active threat.

The Western mind is truly a thing of wonder. In many cultures senseless, genocidal vendetta is the norm. Who’s to say such is not the case with the geth and quarians?

[Dean_the_Young]

Ryzaki wrote...
Right and the Quarians stopped being a threat...when exactly? 

The point at which their military forces couldn't stop the butchering off civilians would be a good indication.

[Dean_the_Young]

General User wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If you and your siblings grouped together to kill me and mine, self-defense would not cover us killing your group until it maintained no threat, killing the rest of your siblings who no longer posed a threat, and then going out and killing your parents, you children, your cousins, their cousins, and everyone related to you except for those who fled fast enough.

Self-defense would only cover killing the attackers until they stopped being an active threat.

The Western mind is truly a thing of wonder. In many cultures senseless, genocidal vendetta is the norm. Who’s to say such is not the case with the geth and quarians?

I don't respect sensless genocidal vendettas of human cultures: why one earth should I give aliens a pass?

[Ryzaki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Right and the Quarians stopped being a threat...when exactly? 

The point at which their military forces couldn't stop the butchering off civilians would be a good indication.

...The Quarians were "butchered" where exactly? Judging from the fact that the Geth aren't chasing the Quarians down and slaughtering them there is no butchering going on any longer. 

[Ryzaki]

Plus according to you the only evidence we have of Geth "butchering" Quarians are the heretics. Which have already been revealed not to be all the Geth. It's like saying because some Quarians like Xen, quarians like Quib Quib don't exist.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 octobre 2010 - 09:09 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

There were billions of quarians on Rannoch. Only 17 million quarians exist "today".

Quite simply that means that something like 99.999% of every man, woman and child perished in the Morning War. There is no way that happened unless the Geth specifcally extermianted them.

The heretics formed because of contact with the reapers. Which was obviously after the Morning War given what Legion says.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 23 octobre 2010 - 09:15 .

[Ryzaki]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

There were billions of quarians on Rannoch. Only 17 Million quarians exist "today".

Quite simply that means that something like 99.999% of every man, woman and child perished in the Morning War.

Is there a codex or something on that? 

Edit: About the heretics yes you're right. 

Legion suggests however that there are Geth who are considering peace (similar to the Quarians) and everytime I see Quarians being wiped out by Geth in game (after the first war) is when they started screwing with the Geth again. 

As for that beyond the veil: Does anyone know what even happens over there? Other than people not returning? 

Its hard for me to see the first war as anything other than Self-defense. And before someone starts the whole "women and children were killed" they were also killed in world wars as part of crossfire. It's not a new tatic. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 octobre 2010 - 09:19 .

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Because the main flaw in dealing with the Geth right from the start was underestimating their strength in numbers.

What does that have to do with anything?

The Quarians only have very limited numbers to experiment with. They have no practical way of getting the level of information the Geth have. Even the Geth are uncertain of the outcome of reprogramming.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It's simple deductive math. Tali says that the geth killed "billions of quarians" in the elevator. The Codex mentions that the Migrant Fleet has 17 million quarians. So almost all their entire population vanished as a result of the war with the Geth on Rannoch.

[General User]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

General User wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If you and your siblings grouped together to kill me and mine, self-defense would not cover us killing your group until it maintained no threat, killing the rest of your siblings who no longer posed a threat, and then going out and killing your parents, you children, your cousins, their cousins, and everyone related to you except for those who fled fast enough.

Self-defense would only cover killing the attackers until they stopped being an active threat.

The Western mind is truly a thing of wonder. In many cultures senseless, genocidal vendetta is the norm. Who’s to say such is not the case with the geth and quarians?

I don't respect sensless genocidal vendettas of human cultures: why one earth should I give aliens a pass?

Admittedly I’m jumping in the middle of a conversation, if I misinterpret one of your (anyone’s really) positions; I apologize in advance and welcome a correction.
 
But to answer your question directly… you should give alien (and human, ftm) cultures a pass on such things as their collective definition of and attitude toward genocide/atrocity because you (as an individual) don’t have the power to change such things, at least in terms of a practical timeframe. Especially a culture as utterly alien as the geth. 

By all means, condemn, inspire them to be better, use force to stop them but, in the end, you must accept them for who and what they are and try to make the best of it (even if that means war).

[Ryzaki]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

It's simple deductive math. Tali says that the geth killed "billions of quarians" in the elevator. The Codex mentions that the Migrant Fleet has 17 million quarians. So almost all their entire population vanished as a result of the war with the Geth on Rannoch.

Billions

9billion999million999thousand999/17 million = 588.235294

So hypoticially for every Quarian alive 589 were killed. (Of course I gave the maximum amount of Quarians (I doubt there was 9 billion Quarians). 

It's a lot. No doubt. But it was a war. Plus we don't have a figure for how many Geth they managed to destroy. 

But if this is true the Quarians got curbstomped. Hard. And the Geth have only advanced while the Quarians have been traveling. 

That said the Quarians are still trying to go back to their homeworld instead of trying to coup their losses. It seems they've learned absolutely nothing. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 octobre 2010 - 09:27 .

[Ryzaki]

That said I feel sorry for both parties. I just wish the Quarians would stop blaming everything on the damn Geth.



At least the Krogan don't sit around blaming the Salarians for everything that goes wrong.

[Dean_the_Young]

Ryzaki wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Right and the Quarians stopped being a threat...when exactly? 

The point at which their military forces couldn't stop the butchering off civilians would be a good indication.

...The Quarians were "butchered" where exactly? Judging from the fact that the Geth aren't chasing the Quarians down and slaughtering them there is no butchering going on any longer. 

The Quarians were butchered when over 99% of their race was exterminated. Unless you intend to argue that every adult, elderly, and child, every single Quarian person was not only an advocate, but a participant of the attempt to shut off the Geth... that's a lot of civilians to be killed. You don't get that sort of death count without trying for it. That the they didn't pursue the pittance of Quarians who escaped does not change what they did do.

This is the history of the Morning War. This was the first policy of the Geth. Including the same geth that remain active now.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Um...

We never learned the exact population of Rannoch before the war so I use the extremely conservative estimate of 2 Billion.

17,000,000 Survivors / 2,000,000,000 Quarians = 0.0085.

Meaning that 0.85% of the Quarian population survived the Morning War.

Meaning that the Geth killed 99.15% of all quarians everywhere. Using minimum estimates.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 23 octobre 2010 - 09:34 .